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That DK set is horrible. If I didn't know it was him, wouldn't have recognized his portrait on the screen
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Well I'm off to sleep. Nighty my fellow Europeans
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On August 09 2013 10:20 babylon wrote:
so someone who knows dota 2, how do the drafts for each team look?
iG can push SUPER hard early/mid, DK have lategame quite easily if they can get the farm, I'd say it's relatively even but if iG can get a good early advantage they should be able to end it between 30-40 minutes
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Canada2068 Posts
On August 09 2013 10:10 gLhF.Revere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:05 tree.hugger wrote:
I dunno, you guys are awfully uptight. The crowd and casters were trying to have fun with the game, and all I read here are super serious people finger wagging. That game was stupidly wrong, both teams were playing absurdly safe even when the game didn't rest on a knife's edge. Korean casters were just as frustrated, they were cursing at the game. I'm sure a lot of people here preferred them because they just didn't understand what they were saying.
The crowd was exhausted but having fun. Casters were tired and frustrated, but having fun with it. Nobody's feelings were hurt. The game was on a knife's edge. DK tried barreling mid around 30 min into the game but iG splitpushed ridiculously well. Remember how DK had to sacrifice two tier 2 towers for 1 tier 2 tower despite having a bear? Remember how DK nearly lost their top tier 3 just by pushing mid? Even when DK had a considerable gold/exp lead, Zhou's Rapier shredded Syllabear's bear, making 2/3 of Burning's net worth useless. Comparing Ayesee's commentary with Tobi's LGD vs iG and BTS' iG vs LGD.Int highlights just how unprofessional it comes off as.
This. You can't call a game stupidly wrong just because the game seems different from the way most Western Dota games go. The game has a lot of playstyles you can run and it's ridiculous to use "entertainment value" as a metric when $2.8M is on the line.
The fault of Ayesee's commentary is that instead of taking the opportunity to enlighten a crowd ignorant about Eastern Dota like Synderen usually does as a student of the game, he had the effect of egging the crowd on as if there were something wrong with the way the game was being played.
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On August 09 2013 10:19 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:15 TheYango wrote:On August 09 2013 10:10 LoLAdriankat wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 TheYango wrote:On August 09 2013 10:05 LittLeD wrote:On August 09 2013 10:04 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 09 2013 10:01 killerdog wrote:
This can't be good advertising for dota 2 in korea though, leagues about to start and this is their first taste of dota, and they get the casters sitting there bored out of their minds writing "puck ig" on the map,
seriously, games like this are gonna be a huge turnoff for potential players... there should be a mechanism to prevent games going this way. This is DotA. 80+ minute games has been a part of this game for as long as the game itself has existed. If you take that away, you won't have DotA anymore. Actually, Icefrog's tried for years to make games shorter and NOT have these games happen. Buyback changes? Staggered TP channel times? Smoke? All of those changes were geared toward shifting the game away from these long games. HoN's solution was limiting each player to two buybacks which would probably make a bigger difference than any of those changes. That has too drastic an impact on earlier portions of the game. Buyback is a very critical resource to making comebacks in DotA, the problem is when it gets to lategame where the gold loss of a buyback stops being punishing, and it's no longer a "resource". Would having two formulas for buyback be a good fix? Like after minute 45 or something, the cost would drastically increase
So you want teams to farm up even more before engaging?
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LoL at DK picking spectre so if it ever goes 90 minutes again they win.
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On August 09 2013 10:16 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:11 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 JayJay_90 wrote:On August 09 2013 10:07 djaoni wrote:
It's the crowd that is awful, not Ayesee. He just did what they wanted him to. WTF?! The crowd was awesome and Aysee was handling the situation brilliantly. I'd rather have teams try their best to win no matter what it takes than seeing them play to please the crowd. Basically telling them they suck for trying their best to win more than a million is unprofessional as fuck. Show some manners. No, it's unproffesional to walk circles in your own jungle for 30 minutes because you don't have a game plan. They didn't try their best, they tried nothing at all... Ayesee did fine. So being unsure of what to do in a tough situation isn't allowed for the best teams in the world? Obviously both teams just did that to annoy the crap out of you, how silly to believe it might have been about winning TI3.
Yeah they did that to win ofc. The side effect was that it was boring as hell. But then people go and blame Ayesee and the crowd for booing.. Ofc the teams did it to win, but it was no fun to watch and it's really unfair to call the casters unprofessional/bad if they point out that it is no fun. It's not their fault nothing was happening and it's totally normal for the croud to be bored. They couldn't alt tab like I was doing.
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On August 09 2013 10:18 jigga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:15 Colston wrote:On August 09 2013 10:11 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 JayJay_90 wrote:On August 09 2013 10:07 djaoni wrote:
It's the crowd that is awful, not Ayesee. He just did what they wanted him to. WTF?! The crowd was awesome and Aysee was handling the situation brilliantly. I'd rather have teams try their best to win no matter what it takes than seeing them play to please the crowd. Basically telling them they suck for trying their best to win more than a million is unprofessional as fuck. Show some manners. Nope, it's not unprofessional at all. I'm pretty sure it's more important for Valve that the people watching like their game, more than it is that someone gets a million. Wish they'd remove a certain percentage of the prize money for that last game if either DK or IG win. And do the same to other teams waiting 20 mins before they even go look for a pick off. That is a problem of the game itself, not the players. You can't punish players for doing everything they can to win, no matter how boring it is. The best you can do is change the game or give incentives (like the UFC gives 50k USD to fight of the night and best knockout).
Yes you can. The game didn't decide that it was time to have 30 minutes of total shitness. The players did.
PRIDE used to give yellow cards, which removed 30% of the prize purse for the fighters. Way better system, as UFC still has GSP and other shitty boring fighters.
And these players didn't fight to win, they fought to not lose. Big difference.
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On August 09 2013 10:17 Shadowpostin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:16 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:11 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 JayJay_90 wrote:On August 09 2013 10:07 djaoni wrote:
It's the crowd that is awful, not Ayesee. He just did what they wanted him to. WTF?! The crowd was awesome and Aysee was handling the situation brilliantly. I'd rather have teams try their best to win no matter what it takes than seeing them play to please the crowd. Basically telling them they suck for trying their best to win more than a million is unprofessional as fuck. Show some manners. No, it's unproffesional to walk circles in your own jungle for 30 minutes because you don't have a game plan. They didn't try their best, they tried nothing at all... Ayesee did fine. So being unsure of what to do in a tough situation isn't allowed for the best teams in the world? Obviously both teams just did that to annoy the crap out of you, how silly to believe it might have been about winning TI3. actually it's not that they weren't unsure of what they want to do they just knew they lost and there was little they could do to win.it must be fucked up playing such a long game and than suddenly realizing you can't win
They weren't lost, that is just how China dota games go when it goes super late. The team to make the first mistake loses and loses almost instantly. That is why they play so safe. They have done this shit for YEARS. The whole of 2009-2010 was played like that, with 90 minute games and one huge teamfight deciding everything. To say they didn't have a gameplan is just not understanding Chinese dota.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On August 09 2013 10:20 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:19 renfree wrote:
I'm afraid DK is gonna get raxed in 20 mins :S I'd welcome that 
Stay awake better
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On August 09 2013 10:20 anonymitylol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:20 babylon wrote:
so someone who knows dota 2, how do the drafts for each team look? iG can push SUPER hard early/mid, DK have lategame quite easily if they can get the farm, I'd say it's relatively even but if iG can get a good early advantage they should be able to end it between 30-40 minutes
i don't know if i want dk to win or the set to be over more quickly. :/
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On August 09 2013 10:20 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:10 gLhF.Revere wrote:On August 09 2013 10:05 tree.hugger wrote:
I dunno, you guys are awfully uptight. The crowd and casters were trying to have fun with the game, and all I read here are super serious people finger wagging. That game was stupidly wrong, both teams were playing absurdly safe even when the game didn't rest on a knife's edge. Korean casters were just as frustrated, they were cursing at the game. I'm sure a lot of people here preferred them because they just didn't understand what they were saying.
The crowd was exhausted but having fun. Casters were tired and frustrated, but having fun with it. Nobody's feelings were hurt. The game was on a knife's edge. DK tried barreling mid around 30 min into the game but iG splitpushed ridiculously well. Remember how DK had to sacrifice two tier 2 towers for 1 tier 2 tower despite having a bear? Remember how DK nearly lost their top tier 3 just by pushing mid? Even when DK had a considerable gold/exp lead, Zhou's Rapier shredded Syllabear's bear, making 2/3 of Burning's net worth useless. Comparing Ayesee's commentary with Tobi's LGD vs iG and BTS' iG vs LGD.Int highlights just how unprofessional it comes off as. This. You can't call a game stupidly wrong just because the game seems different from the way most Western Dota games go. The game has a lot of playstyles you can run and it's ridiculous to use "entertainment value" as a metric when $2.8M is on the line. The fault of Ayesee's commentary is that instead of taking the opportunity to enlighten a crowd ignorant about Eastern Dota like Synderen usually does as a student of the game, he had the effect of egging the crowd on as if there were something wrong with the way the game was being played.
Someone with some SENSE in this thread, thank god.
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I just want DK to lose out of spite at this point.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 09 2013 10:19 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:18 TheYango wrote:
Honestly the only reason this game lasted so long was because the Raplier caused DK to freak out and not push because Rapier nullifies enormous gold advantages.
Realistically, the game could have ended 30 minutes earlier if Rapier didn't exist, but I don't think most people want that. Rapier is too entertaining when teams use it incorrectly, but when teams properly use Rapier it turns games into this. Rapier isn't only entertaining when used incorrectly, several great Rapier games happened with good play from the team that was behind and bought a Rapier. Very, very few Rapier games turn into this.
Rapiers are essentially sudden death, and it only ends games like that because people march willingly to their loss in that sudden death.
When both teams recognize this, I think this game is actually the natural outcome.
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On August 09 2013 10:20 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:18 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 09 2013 10:11 TheYango wrote:On August 09 2013 10:09 Numy wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 TheYango wrote:On August 09 2013 10:05 LittLeD wrote:On August 09 2013 10:04 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 09 2013 10:01 killerdog wrote:
This can't be good advertising for dota 2 in korea though, leagues about to start and this is their first taste of dota, and they get the casters sitting there bored out of their minds writing "puck ig" on the map,
seriously, games like this are gonna be a huge turnoff for potential players... there should be a mechanism to prevent games going this way. This is DotA. 80+ minute games has been a part of this game for as long as the game itself has existed. If you take that away, you won't have DotA anymore. Actually, Icefrog's tried for years to make games shorter and NOT have these games happen. Buyback changes? Staggered TP channel times? Smoke? All of those changes were geared toward shifting the game away from these long games. I wonder, don't you feel like Buyback changes actually made late game even more unstable? It's just games don't tend to go that far anymore. It makes games in the 40-60 minute range more likely to end immediately because you can't defend high ground with double/triple buyback from a single hero. Repeated buybacks only help the defending team because the attacking team can only TP back into the fight once anyway, barring a few specific heroes. I still find buybacks bullshit when a team is diving a tower, get a few kills, then they buyback and get like 4 kills in return by tping back into the fight. Shouldn't be able to tp right after a buyback imo. I think the main reason for buybacks is so the game just doesn't end after 1 pickoff anticlimactically. Well often times a team that keeps "winning fights" with buybacks falls too far behind due to having to expend buybacks in order to win fights. It's a very steep slope that if you don't make work you land up further behind than when you started.
I disagree... most times when I see buybacks used in the midgame it favors the team in the lead. For one, it's usually the farmed team with buybacks available. Also, usually the team with more towers can TP back into the fight. Then there's also the fact that usually buybacking into fights then wiping the other team usually leads into VERY worthwhile trades. Roshan, towers, etc.
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On August 09 2013 10:19 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:17 Shadowpostin wrote:On August 09 2013 10:16 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:11 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 JayJay_90 wrote:On August 09 2013 10:07 djaoni wrote:
It's the crowd that is awful, not Ayesee. He just did what they wanted him to. WTF?! The crowd was awesome and Aysee was handling the situation brilliantly. I'd rather have teams try their best to win no matter what it takes than seeing them play to please the crowd. Basically telling them they suck for trying their best to win more than a million is unprofessional as fuck. Show some manners. No, it's unproffesional to walk circles in your own jungle for 30 minutes because you don't have a game plan. They didn't try their best, they tried nothing at all... Ayesee did fine. So being unsure of what to do in a tough situation isn't allowed for the best teams in the world? Obviously both teams just did that to annoy the crap out of you, how silly to believe it might have been about winning TI3. actually it's not that they weren't unsure of what they want to do they just knew they lost and there was little they could do to win.it must be fucked up playing such a long game and than suddenly realizing you can't win There were just those awkward moments where DK tried to siege and OD just said NOPE to the bear. Just rushing in anyway would be the worst possible choice. Either you figure something out to change it, the other team fucks up or this happens. That's why I keep saying, go blame the game, not the teams.
its not only the od,2 heros on DKs team were absolutely useless and once enigma blew black whole that count went up to 3.Meanwhile iG had 4 autoattackers.also the bear just got shackled every time and poof
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On August 09 2013 10:20 SnowfaLL wrote:
I think the issue is its taking like an hour between every game.. That is what makes these playoffs so long. 6 hours for 4 games?? The games themselves, were no more than 3.5 hours. Thats wayy too long between games.
Get recruited by a team and then play in tourney with no downtime, no pause between games to let your mind drift away and rest for a while. Then come back and well see
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On August 09 2013 10:15 Colston wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:11 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 JayJay_90 wrote:On August 09 2013 10:07 djaoni wrote:
It's the crowd that is awful, not Ayesee. He just did what they wanted him to. WTF?! The crowd was awesome and Aysee was handling the situation brilliantly. I'd rather have teams try their best to win no matter what it takes than seeing them play to please the crowd. Basically telling them they suck for trying their best to win more than a million is unprofessional as fuck. Show some manners. Nope, it's not unprofessional at all. I'm pretty sure it's more important for Valve that the people watching like their game, more than it is that someone gets a million. Wish they'd remove a certain percentage of the prize money for that last game if either DK or IG win. And do the same to other teams waiting 20 mins before they even go look for a pick off.
The game was more than worth it just to see this little gem of comment.
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On August 09 2013 10:21 jigga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 10:17 Shadowpostin wrote:On August 09 2013 10:16 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:11 r.Evo wrote:On August 09 2013 10:08 JayJay_90 wrote:On August 09 2013 10:07 djaoni wrote:
It's the crowd that is awful, not Ayesee. He just did what they wanted him to. WTF?! The crowd was awesome and Aysee was handling the situation brilliantly. I'd rather have teams try their best to win no matter what it takes than seeing them play to please the crowd. Basically telling them they suck for trying their best to win more than a million is unprofessional as fuck. Show some manners. No, it's unproffesional to walk circles in your own jungle for 30 minutes because you don't have a game plan. They didn't try their best, they tried nothing at all... Ayesee did fine. So being unsure of what to do in a tough situation isn't allowed for the best teams in the world? Obviously both teams just did that to annoy the crap out of you, how silly to believe it might have been about winning TI3. actually it's not that they weren't unsure of what they want to do they just knew they lost and there was little they could do to win.it must be fucked up playing such a long game and than suddenly realizing you can't win They weren't lost, that is just how China dota games go when it goes super late. The team to make the first mistake loses and loses almost instantly. That is why they play so safe. They have done this shit for YEARS. The whole of 2009-2010 was played like that, with 90 minute games and one huge teamfight deciding everything. To say they didn't have a gameplan is just not understanding Chinese dota.
That's how EVERY Dota lategame goes.
It's just that the western teams tend to fuck up way before that and lose right there in comparison.
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EPT
