EPTYes its nice to get an early lvl 7 and all, but really unless your team is snowballing at a very early stage of the game you'll end up as a slightly overleveled support which really isnt worth it. So many other offlaners can stay much more relevant for a lot longer.
[Hero] Treant Protector - Page 2
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Yes its nice to get an early lvl 7 and all, but really unless your team is snowballing at a very early stage of the game you'll end up as a slightly overleveled support which really isnt worth it. So many other offlaners can stay much more relevant for a lot longer. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11446 Posts
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llKyonll
Netherlands39 Posts
On February 09 2015 19:40 robaq wrote: Offlane treant is in my opinion even better than support in many ways. In 1v2 lanes you can just bully the support and farm the lane with your ridiculous right click damage, and the moment you are left 1v1 you do the same to the carry. When you get 6 you become a very powerful roaming machine for a brief timing, so you can call a support to take over your (probably won) lane. If you are versing a trilane (which is already a win since they commit 3 heroes to a stupid tree), just soak exp and farm when supports leave to gank. On February 09 2015 19:55 Kreb wrote: Yes its nice to get an early lvl 7 and all, but really unless your team is snowballing at a very early stage of the game you'll end up as a slightly overleveled support which really isnt worth it. So many other offlaners can stay much more relevant for a lot longer. Well i'm glad i asked this question because it seems to warrant some discussion ^^ The answer seems to depend mostly on whether you can effectively stay in lane and get some farm. Basically rushing level 6-7 and then leaving to roam and push. I agree that this is quit a specific situation, and that it might be more useful to have these levels on other heroes. I could imagine a situation were you might go to an abandoned offlane to soak xp with NG (soulring/manaboots) when you notice you don't have much else to do, right? You lose your right clicking umph pretty quickly and in passive games it is sometimes hard to find other useful things to do (+babysitting can be done remotely). And as a related question: when to pick Treant (support), and what to do after your done punching offlaners? | ||
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
Speaking of which, can someone explain how this hero has so much impact as a support in pubs? He's statistically my best hero at 3.8k mmr but when I play him all I do is pull safelane jungle camps (I don't feel confident looking for armor targets and zoning at the same time), occasionally fight with my team, buy wards, and use living armor on teammates whenever I can. I always have awful kda, xpm, and gpm but my team still wins. Is it because people don't know how to deal with living armor at low mmr, so it consistently changes the outcome of engagements? | ||
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robaq
Poland186 Posts
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llKyonll
Netherlands39 Posts
On February 10 2015 16:53 Rainling wrote: Speaking of which, can someone explain how this hero has so much impact as a support in pubs? He's statistically my best hero at 3.8k mmr but when I play him all I do is pull safelane jungle camps (I don't feel confident looking for armor targets and zoning at the same time), occasionally fight with my team, buy wards, and use living armor on teammates whenever I can. I always have awful kda, xpm, and gpm but my team still wins. Is it because people don't know how to deal with living armor at low mmr, so it consistently changes the outcome of engagements? This is exactly how I feel when playing him: running around feeling useless while somehow still helping to win games. I do feel that heals are very strong at low mmr, which is also why omniknight and abbadon have such a high winrate i think. People forget to factor in the heals/shields and overextend, allowing your team to collapse on them and clean up. Having said that i don't think that treant is an Abba/omni level healer so there have to be some other factors (like the structure heal robaq mentiones). Another thing i really like is that the ultimate goes through BKB. I'm gonna play some more games on him using these criteria for picking: - Are there things for me to punch early (low ms/melee heroes) - Do we need a body & counter initiator - Do they have a (slow) split pusher like NP or heroes that tend to push out the lane I'm also gonna try to use NG more because it seems like there is a lot of benefit to get from using it effectively. Final question: always go mek if no one else is? Or is the blink to good to skip? | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Hell I even tried counterpicking Clinkz a couple of times with treant. Think Im like 4-0 or something in the matchup. Get arcane boots -> Gem (or even gem before arcanes if you have a bad game and you need to stop his snowballing before you have time to get both) and run around in your jungle with 2pts in guise. It completely stops his ability to continue solo ganks. And pubs seldom counter buys detection ("its a treant lolol fuck detection") but even if they do its hard to kill you with dust since you're invis all fights they first need to hit you with dust then lock you down and kill you. And gems to counter you with your gem doesnt happen. Its also great vs stuff like sblade Slark or snowballing BHs/Nyx's (uncommon). | ||
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rudimentalfeelthelov
Finland268 Posts
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
On February 10 2015 18:36 llKyonll wrote: Final question: always go mek if no one else is? Or is the blink to good to skip? I feel like mek is not great on tree because he's always using his mana for stuff, so he doesn't have a lot to spare. It's still a good item when your team is in need of one though. Also he farms really slowly so the mek will generally be very late. Blink is decent, so is force staff, because his spells provide a lot of short-range utility. I think vlad's is usually a better version of mek on tree because it benefits his mana pool, enables him to farm more sustainably, and scales better into the lategame, which is appropriate considering how late it will be coming out. I think ppd's dotabuff is a good guide to itemization on treant. I'm going to start copying him. I feel like agh's is so good though, not sure why he never builds it. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11446 Posts
On February 10 2015 22:42 Rainling wrote: I feel like mek is not great on tree because he's always using his mana for stuff, so he doesn't have a lot to spare. It's still a good item when your team is in need of one though. Also he farms really slowly so the mek will generally be very late. Blink is decent, so is force staff, because his spells provide a lot of short-range utility. I think vlad's is usually a better version of mek on tree because it benefits his mana pool, enables him to farm more sustainably, and scales better into the lategame, which is appropriate considering how late it will be coming out. I think ppd's dotabuff is a good guide to itemization on treant. I'm going to start copying him. I feel like agh's is so good though, not sure why he never builds it. Because he never ever gets the farm for it :D | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
Maybe if they would change it so the visiontrees damages nearby creeps in a small aoe, so you could jungle with the aghsupgrade slowly and multiple camps at once. Then aghs could be rushed and treant could become a semi core on a pos4 (a bit like silencer if he steals alot of int).. | ||
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soanparlell
United States49 Posts
I think arcanes is a must for the hero (because soul ring + tranquils does not give him a large enough mana pool to use all of his spells), and i have been building arcane to mek to aghs. The issue with this build is the mek is usually pretty late (in the 20 minute mark) and the aghs is very late (30-40 min), building guardian greaves eventually if the game goes long enough. Are there other items you guys would suggest to build outside mek? I think something in the 2K gold price range is right to build after arcanes. (Drums or force staff or blademail, with the only exception being medallion or maybe urn.) I prefer bigger items because of the restriction to item slots (I usually buy a quelling blade for dewarding in the midgame and carry wards and dust). Do you think I should just be rushing the aghs instead of an intermediary item? I have found aghs to really pull its weight, and earlier is better because you get to just cover the map, but you trade off a large amount of time where you don't add much else to your team while building it. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11446 Posts
And I think SR is sufficient. Only time you are out of mana is because of active usage of Leech/Overgrowth, of which you usually do not use often. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
I almost exclusively pick him against Clinkz, Brood, Slark and the odd carry-Riki. Then I either go Arcanes->Gem or even Gem->Arcanes depending on how early I need the gem. Two points in guise (to not have to spam-recast to stay invis) and afterwards you just run around in your jungle. You get like no items that way and you'll likely stay low level, but I've been a big part in turning around multiple games where the invis hero gets a good start. Last treant game I had (actually against VP.Illidan on Clinkz) the Clinkz got off to a very good start with like 13-14min deso or something and I absolutely believe that game was lost without me just going brown boots into gem. I even skipped stick and some wards to get an earlier gem, like litterally brown boots->gem. But we killed him a few times, stopped the snowball and turned it around eventually. Broods and Clinkz's gets fucked the hardest because their whole solo play game kinda gets destroyed and they're both vulnerable to both Overgrowth and Leech Seed. Slark is so-so because he'll notice when a gem-treant is on top of him and his Dark Pact pretty much deals with everything Treant can do. He is also less dependent on solo plays and can play a farming game too. Ideally you need strong lockdown from your teammates to catch him. But you'll still likely force him out of your jungle anyway. Carry-Riki barely exists so not sure if I ever played that matchup, but should be good for the treant. Even if they counter-buy detection its very hard to kill you since you contribute with all your spells from invis. And you only really commit to a fight to get an overgrowth off, so if they do stuff like dust after overgrowth you're probably already on your way out from the fight and wont die. Also none of the above heroes have TP interrupt so if a Slark buys dust and pops it on you when he notices hes in vision or a Brood buys gem, just TP out. Its not a playstyle for everyone I guess since you're doing very little except running around your jungle with gem. But I kinda enjoy it :p | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
I find medallion/solar crest to be great on treeant, as you are hanging back in fights anyway, as well as just being amazing items for rosh and stuff in general. Also if im playing hard support, Ill often go urn and medallion skipping arcanes, which gives me enough mana regen to skip arcanes (may have to occasionally ferry a clarity out with wards but nowhere near the cost of arcanes). By the time aghs comes online when playing hard support the game is usually over, when you can get a blink for half the price to give you team-fight winning ults. People always say the vision is amazing, they're not wrong, but you are a treeant so you should always have great deep wards and you scouting anyway, so you still have good vision without aghs. aghs speeds up your farm speed greatly so on a say position 3 tree it can be good, but increasing your farm speed at 45 minutes is a bit late for hard support I tend to always first pick in ranked, and one issue I often come across with 1st pick tree, is it can end with your team going too greedy giving you 0 kill potential in all lanes whilst they have a ranged offlaner, making you pretty much useless for the laning stage. In these cases I tend to just go for a mid bottle snipe, as treeant one hit kills it. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
After reading kreb's post, maybe its also possible to accomplish firstblood on a bountyhunter at lvl1 or lvl2 (lvl1 guise & lvl2 leechseed)+enchantress. I haven’t tested this at all, just theorycrafting here. Bountyhunter would hopefully reach lvl6 too late to change the outcome of the game. bad idea or doable? | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On June 01 2015 21:05 govie wrote: Saki [NETOGE] is a creative forummember and suggested in my short "bountyhunter draftquiz" that riki offlane could be a good counterpick against a support bountyhunter when you run a jungler like enchantress. He would try to get firstblood with riki+enchantress on the bountyhunter in the early stages of the game. After reading kreb's post, maybe its also possible to accomplish firstblood on a bountyhunter at lvl1 or lvl2 (lvl1 guise & lvl2 leechseed)+enchantress. I haven’t tested this at all, just theorycrafting here. Bountyhunter would hopefully reach lvl6 too late to change the outcome of the game. bad idea or doable? although bounty has the ability of being able to track team-mates you're trying to guise-save in later-game. for the early stage of the game treeant should wreck a support bounty. being able to living armour whatever lane he ganks, and preventing the gank/kill without ever having to even rotate can win you the early game so hard against support bounty. regardless of whether or not you can 1st blood him, support tree works out great vs bounty. Think its eg who had success at summit 3 with using treeant support to counterpick support bounty | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
Cast invisibility near a tree. Then blink and plant the branch. You will remain invisible thanks to the grace period. Now if you enchant the tree and ulti you will create an effect similar to Shaker ulti. Requires a few minutes in demo mode to practice, but it's a very cool trick. If you practise it enough, you can easily do it fast enough so the enemy won't have time to react. The items are also quite rational and possible to obtain on tree, so it's not an entirely unreasonable thing to pull off even in a high level game. Just throwing this idea here if any tree players want to try it out. | ||
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NAwk
United States8 Posts
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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