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[Hero] Faceless Void - Page 16

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 17 2015 18:57 GMT
#301
Because Void's 6-item lategame is massively worse than it used to be when that was basically the only reason to pick Void as a carry at all.

Instead, he's pushed with better consistent survivability early-midgame and better non-Chrono fight contribution without being insanely farmed.
Moderator
Wineandbread
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2065 Posts
December 17 2015 19:23 GMT
#302
Other than his survivability what does he offer without Chrono?

You can conditionally absorb damage with time walk if they focus you, or you get a good time dilation off which would have been like 'landing' a time walk pre6.86.

I assume the whole idea is a) try to get team to focus you, b) after they use spells on you, turn around and Q, c) time dilation and try to get your team to follow up
That entirely revolves around you surviving the skills they use on you though

I guess he would want to build tanky early then? Maybe treads, drum?
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 19:39:50
December 17 2015 19:34 GMT
#303
you got it backwards.
You would blink in chrono first, and get a potential pick off
Or if no chrono just run in and try to hit shit
You would then use time dilation, maybe even while inside the chrono
Enemy would try to then burst you because you're out of position, but they cannot chain combos or stuns, you time-walk away the damage

I believe the new build would be focused on increasing health and fighting potential. Blink/Armlet/Treads/Wand is my take. You would use toggle along with time walk to reset damage. Then build BKB

wait they can still chain combo and stun you.

this hero makes no sense then.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
December 17 2015 19:38 GMT
#304
The problem with that is you don't have a reliable initiation if you want to use timewalk to offset damage.

Looking at the cooldown:

Timewalk:
24/18/12/6

Time Dilation:
34/28/22/16

Basically they are both kind of blow.

If you use timewalk to initiate you might just be dead.

Iono still seems kind of a shit hiro to use
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 20:38:14
December 17 2015 20:37 GMT
#305
^ not sure what you want to say with the cds. I think both cds are pretty strong, considering that time dilation has 9 sec duration and timewalk easily beats doppelganger in terms of cd and backtracks 2 seconds every 6.

Tbh I think timewalk is really good now, because it leaves the opponent in the situation to either try to burst and end up loosing a lot of damage, or to ignore a hero with that kind of initiation power.

I think the main problem is that he deals no damage and lacks flash farm. He definitely needs a force or blink dagger and lots of damage from other sources.

I think something like void+phoenix might become a thing, with either of the two as offlaner and the other one as support.
low gravity, yes-yes!
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
December 17 2015 20:45 GMT
#306
I'm thinking void might be super dangerous against trilane/dual lane supports that don't have long stun durations. Walk up to them -> timewalk and time dilation right after enemies use spells on you -> hit supports til they die.
:)
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 21:05:05
December 17 2015 21:01 GMT
#307
the problem with CD is how can he be relevant early game? Most play maker hero have a useful combo at level 6 so they can leave the offlane and do something useful.

Say you lane a void, you hit lvl 6, what does your skill set look like? His skillset looks a lot like ember, where it's really good on high level but really shit on low level. So ideally you would max out 1 skill first and leave the other at 1 point. For ember the choice is simple. Flameguard is fucking OP at lower level so you max that first.

But what do you even max first as a void?

Max timewalk first, in early game you have no hp they'll burst you down, plus you deal no damage

Max time dilation first, okay you have a 20 second cd on timewalk, good luck running up to ppl and (maybe) silence them, also you deal no damage

Max stun first, before your time-walk has 700 range lvl1, AND it slows, now you have a super short range timewalk and need to cast the time dilation for a possbility of slow. Pray to rnjesus? Now you're super squish and without timewalk to offset.

It just seems like he's a squish hero that can't do anything beside a huge cd chrono, which he can't really initiate because of a 550 range leap. He wants other ppl to hit him yet he has no hp, he deals no damage and need to run at people to maybe slow them if they cast a spell.

Compare that to void before patch. You can just offlane, buy pms or vanguard even, max out back-track and hurp durp in the lane for no cost. lvl1 time walk wonder point for chrono ganks and farm out some jungles with mask of madness into a semi=legit carry anyways.

Maybe someone would figure out how to use him. But it just seems he's very awkward hero, he wants people to dump spells on him yet he's no bristleback.

edit: maybe mid or safelane. I don't know. I think he'll be super fun to play still with armlet etc but doesn't seem very viable. I don't really know how strong 10% movement speed slow actually is.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 21:15:05
December 17 2015 21:03 GMT
#308
What a damn weird hero he's become.

I feel he's a bad choice as an offlaner. He needs too many items to do what others can do with 1-2. Not to mention he lacks the combination potential that's a staple of even the greedier offlaners.

On December 18 2015 05:37 Blackfeather wrote:
I think the main problem is that he deals no damage and lacks flash farm. He definitely needs a force or blink dagger and lots of damage from other sources.


He does plenty of damage at level 7 if you inflate his AS with MoM. But Time Lock damage hits a wall after a certain point and his AGI gain is mediocre. Not to mention supports can afford defensive items in this patch, so you can't stick on MoM if you want to kill them going into the lategame.

If you go Blink Dagger you might as well farm Aghs. You won't be doing any relevant damage in a team fight.

On December 18 2015 06:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Compare that to void before patch. You can just offlane, buy pms or vanguard even, max out back-track and hurp durp in the lane for no cost. lvl1 time walk wonder point for chrono ganks and farm out some jungles with mask of madness into a semi=legit carry anyways.

Maybe someone would figure out how to use him. But it just seems he's very awkward hero.


Well, pre-patch Void wouldn't work now for a number of reasons anyway.

On December 18 2015 06:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:
edit: maybe mid or safelane. I don't know. I think he'll be super fun to play still with armlet etc but doesn't seem very viable. I don't really know how strong 10% movement speed slow actually is.


It's shit. Better with Oov, but still bad.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 21:20:00
December 17 2015 21:19 GMT
#309
TBH the biggest problem with offlane is that he's actually a WORSE ganker from offlane for pressuring mid than he was before because Time Walk's range is shit now and Time Dilation does nothing if the enemy has no spells on CD.

On December 18 2015 06:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:
It's shit. Better with Oov, but still bad.

It's 10% per spell CD locked. Which means it's only going to kick in strong later when you can get like 30%+ slows for locking people out of a full rotation.
Moderator
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 21:35:05
December 17 2015 21:31 GMT
#310
On December 18 2015 06:19 TheYango wrote:
TBH the biggest problem with offlane is that he's actually a WORSE ganker from offlane for pressuring mid than he was before because Time Walk's range is shit now and Time Dilation does nothing if the enemy has no spells on CD.

Show nested quote +
On December 18 2015 06:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:
It's shit. Better with Oov, but still bad.

It's 10% per spell CD locked. Which means it's only going to kick in strong later when you can get like 30%+ slows for locking people out of a full rotation.


Don't think he even qualifies as a ganker anymore rofl.

The cumulative effect is fine if you can time it correctly without dying. Since it's both MS and AS slow, I imagine you'd want to stack the debuff with another one while having enough survivability to force a retreat. Skadi might work (orb + stats) if one can find a decent enough farming build.

There's also the problem of mana pool. If this new version wants to be relevant in a fight, he needs to expend a lot more mana than he did before.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 23:44:58
December 17 2015 23:38 GMT
#311
It's weird because I can think of a lot of uses for FV's general kit & time dilation, but with the reduced jump range I can't think of how those situations would actually work out.

Like Time Dilation would be great to lock down blinking targets... except you have no way to chase them when they blink without going like blink + force (lol) and it only helps delay the 2nd blink. And for Ember & Storm their fake blinks don't have cool downs to exploit anyways.


It almost seems like instead of being a slow you'd want time dilation to give Faceless Void increase AS/MS so he would be a good counter initiator. But even then that only partially works because BKB would block the time dilation.

Still maybe the hero would have some use against QoP by being able to rewind/dodge the ult damage then lock her out of escaping without having to devout the ulty.

Logo
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
December 18 2015 01:32 GMT
#312
Waga played him with RoA, Diffusal, manta on stream today. Looked interesting but he had a nice early start with a super solid support.
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
December 18 2015 01:54 GMT
#313
Diffusal/Manta is an old build.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
December 18 2015 10:43 GMT
#314
On December 18 2015 10:32 BoZiffer wrote:
Waga played him with RoA, Diffusal, manta on stream today. Looked interesting but he had a nice early start with a super solid support.

safelane?

i mean this guy is like... if u run him as carry he doesn't do enough damage (glimmer cape owns him) and if you run him offlane he has crap gank.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
December 18 2015 11:47 GMT
#315
doesnt chrono reveal stealth??
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
December 18 2015 12:03 GMT
#316
biggest sad feeling about new void is the crappy timewalk range...feels so off, the thought of even having to buy a blink feels more terrible
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 18 2015 15:35 GMT
#317
Time walk seems crappy, but if they lack lock down that is longer than 2 seconds, void can shrug off almost any damage. I've seen a couple pro streamers just dance a fight taking almost no damage and being able lane forever with minor health and mana regen.

I want to try some tanky builds for early team fighting. I think he is to item hungry to be a carry sadly, and I don't know where this new Time Dilation fits in.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-18 20:25:58
December 18 2015 19:59 GMT
#318
On December 18 2015 20:47 ahswtini wrote:
doesnt chrono reveal stealth??


Yes, but the magic resistance makes Time Lock useless.

On December 19 2015 00:35 Plansix wrote:
Time walk seems crappy, but if they lack lock down that is longer than 2 seconds, void can shrug off almost any damage. I've seen a couple pro streamers just dance a fight taking almost no damage and being able lane forever with minor health and mana regen.

I want to try some tanky builds for early team fighting. I think he is to item hungry to be a carry sadly, and I don't know where this new Time Dilation fits in.


I've had decent success with Mjolnir -> Skadi/Manta. For him to be useful as a carry, I think non-BKB item builds are necessary.

Hero would be decent if they returned his MS/AS slow. No idea why Icefrog thought it was so important to remove those traits.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
tehh4ck3r
Profile Joined August 2013
Magrathea7043 Posts
December 18 2015 21:05 GMT
#319
On December 19 2015 04:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2015 20:47 ahswtini wrote:
doesnt chrono reveal stealth??


Yes, but the magic resistance makes Time Lock useless.

Show nested quote +
On December 19 2015 00:35 Plansix wrote:
Time walk seems crappy, but if they lack lock down that is longer than 2 seconds, void can shrug off almost any damage. I've seen a couple pro streamers just dance a fight taking almost no damage and being able lane forever with minor health and mana regen.

I want to try some tanky builds for early team fighting. I think he is to item hungry to be a carry sadly, and I don't know where this new Time Dilation fits in.


I've had decent success with Mjolnir -> Skadi/Manta. For him to be useful as a carry, I think non-BKB item builds are necessary.

Hero would be decent if they returned his MS/AS slow. No idea why Icefrog thought it was so important to remove those traits.


I'd rather have the full range on time walk back rather than the MS/AS slow
AdministratorIn those days, spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6230 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 00:43:03
December 22 2015 22:47 GMT
#320
This is such a weird hero now.

As a 1pos he needs to itemise damage, mobility and bulk. I feel like the intention was to create a fighting core by adding some AoE CC, but compared to gyro etc. chrono's cd is just way too long and his combat buildup doesn't seem smooth.

I've had a bit of success rushing midas from safelane with proper support - levels seem really important for him - or just going Treads/RoA/mael etc. Every game the lane has been contested at all, I've been useless. I feel like I need at least 2k more than the other carry to compete. idk.

MoM seems especially awkward. More than ever he wants that powerspike to be able to kill things in chrono, but living through lockdown to timewalk it off is almost impossible with mask on.

As an offlaner he's okay, and timewalk does make him very hard to kill, but it doesn't work against sustained harass and he's quite easy to zone. Even if he gets a free 6 he still only contributes once every 2 minutes, and hits like a wet noodle unless his lane was so easy he could max timelock first.

Blink rush seems okay out of offlane and MoM is more forgivable since if I get blown up after chrono I'm at least not the main carry... but mostly I've just ended up wishing I'd picked magnus or something.

If I were to describe him in a single word, that word would be "awkward".
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