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On September 03 2015 12:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 21:35 evanthebouncy! wrote:On September 01 2015 20:18 superstartran wrote:On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier. AM hits his timings way faster, which is very important in a meta that is all about ending early. Not to mention AM doesn't have any long CDs to fight around. pretty sure AM is only relevant with the amount of storm / lesh this patch. Void hits his timing way earlier, his chrono is basically a free kill or a good team fight. AM will have 0 contribution in teamfight except manavoid, and has to out farm by a huge margin to have any impact. Void can always land a sick chrono any time of the game, timewalk gives a slow for chase, and with MoM + bash you have solo kill potentials. That's not even remotely true. AM is viable because of his ability to hit his item timings far faster than any other HC in the game, so at 'midgame' he's already got 3/4 items when other carries have 2 at best. Void will have BKB/One Dmg item at best, and in order for him to be relevant in team fights he needs to have Aghs which gimps his damage big time for quite sometime on the power curve. AM the second he gets bfury ramps up big time on the power curve, and just gets better and better until ultra late which almost all games never go to.
it does happen,
when?
C9 vs SFZ the 3hr. game
where EE's AM looked like a retard for trying to push and melting instantly
note* EE's AM is already 8slotted
point is that yes AM gets fat earlier so his full potential is reached faster
but void can beat him if the team can withstand AM's late game(which is others mid game)
void is one of those carry who has a limitless power given what items you have.
the reason why he is balance is because he relies so much with his chrono and bash.
his bash needs ATKSPD which is gain from items
chrono's downside is long cooldown
I can say maybe void is the most powerful carry but thats if he reaches his full potential
which is 6slots? and maybe thats gonna take maybe less than an hour?
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I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be.
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On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be.
but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked.
but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void
but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins?
so it's safe to say
AM fast farming carry
Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero
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United States15275 Posts
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose.
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On September 03 2015 17:11 wxyLkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be. but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked. but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins? so it's safe to say AM fast farming carry Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero
It's like you didn't read anything I said.
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On September 04 2015 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose.
I don't think void really cares about Solar Crest. Daedalas was a newb trap in about 90% of games anyway. MKB was almost universally the better choice. The pure damage is definitely a bigger issue for someone who sits at such a low HP pool. Some fights you pray for backtrack and it works out, other times not so much.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 04 2015 01:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose. I don't think void really cares about Solar Crest. Daedalas was a newb trap in about 90% of games anyway. MKB was almost universally the better choice. The pure damage is definitely a bigger issue for someone who sits at such a low HP pool. Some fights you pray for backtrack and it works out, other times not so much.
Chronosphere doesn't disable evasion anymore, so Solar Crest hampers his ability to do damage. The armor wrecks him too. He doesn't just depend on Time Lock to kill opponents.
MKB used to be redundant back when True Strike was unnecessary and BKB protected him against most blind effects. Daedalus was only a lure for players who rushed it after Mask of Madness. It's the reason why you used to pick Void against AM; BF Void farmed slower than BF AM but the former could itemize more efficiently thanks to his skillset. These days Void is in the bizarre position of being item-dependent and item-starved. He needs items to do anything worthwhile, but the old 6.81 item builds now create more needs that he can't compensate for.
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SoCal8910 Posts
void's biggest issue right now is that without his ultimate, he's pretty much a walking liability. and if you can force him to ulti to escape, you're even more in business. and if he has to use bkb BEFORE using his ultimate, then forget about it.
currently the meta heroes are heroes that can be successful in a fight whenever one should break out and void can't hang outside of chrono and bkb.
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Everything piercing BKB and not being able to repurchase 10 sec BKB hurt Void a lot, too.
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SoCal8910 Posts
definitely. again, it boils down to the hero being dependent on cooldowns to excel at what he does
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On September 04 2015 01:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 01:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On September 04 2015 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose. I don't think void really cares about Solar Crest. Daedalas was a newb trap in about 90% of games anyway. MKB was almost universally the better choice. The pure damage is definitely a bigger issue for someone who sits at such a low HP pool. Some fights you pray for backtrack and it works out, other times not so much. Chronosphere doesn't disable evasion anymore, so Solar Crest hampers his ability to do damage. The armor wrecks him too. He doesn't just depend on Time Lock to kill opponents. MKB used to be redundant back when True Strike was unnecessary and BKB protected him against most blind effects. Daedalus was only a lure for players who rushed it after Mask of Madness. It's the reason why you used to pick Void against AM; BF Void farmed slower than BF AM but the former could itemize more efficiently thanks to his skillset. These days Void is in the bizarre position of being item-dependent and item-starved. He needs items to do anything worthwhile, but the old 6.81 item builds now create more needs that he can't compensate for.
Well the evasion change was made quite a while ago, 1.5 years at this point? I wasn't even considering that. Even then MKB wasn't bad because the damage is quite comparable to daedalas and the MKB lets you fight evasion outside your chrono in the past. Now it's just 100% better.
But this entire patch is the story of daedalas being a complete waste of money compared to MKB with all the cheap sources of evasion and no counters.
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On September 04 2015 01:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 17:11 wxyLkz wrote:On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be. but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked. but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins? so it's safe to say AM fast farming carry Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero It's like you didn't read anything I said.
what makes you say that, when I actually agreed to some things you said, and just added some of my opinion
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On September 04 2015 15:20 wxyLkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 01:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On September 03 2015 17:11 wxyLkz wrote:On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be. but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked. but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins? so it's safe to say AM fast farming carry Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero It's like you didn't read anything I said. what makes you say that, when I actually agreed to some things you said, and just added some of my opinion
Who wins 6 item vs 6 item is completely irrelevant to the conversation. If you read my initiate comment I said how lina melts void 75% of the time because of backtrack, IE: laguna misses 25% of the time. Lina's euls forces you to get a bkb or your ult is wasted.
The reason AM is good currently is because his kit is superior for dealing with high magic damage int heroes like leshrac and storm. They give him huge ults while not doing enough damage to kill him when he gets his core items.
Void is better for counter initiating becuase the ability to hit a good chrono is almost impossible unless the enemy team is incompetent and you have perfect vision. Counter initiation is much better because people group more. I don't think you ideally want a situation where your void is jumping in first.
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but if you read the title of the thread this is for void?
that's why we are discussing pros and cons for void
and comparison with is accepted
I know AM is better against void in many ways
what I'm pointing that you can't understand is that
VOID's mid game is AM's late game hence AM is ahead always
since AM is ahead he is better that time against void
but when they both get 6items they're even with farm so no one is ahead
and when that time comes VOID is better than most carries
about void jumping 1st yes you can,
given atleast you catch 3 important heroes and you have bkb
as a setter 3 heroes caught in chrono I think thats enough
as long as you're nukers and glass cannons don't get caught as well
if chrono used as counter initiation theres a strong chance that the enemy is already in
if you chrono you might include your team.
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idk AM and void are pretty different heroes. You pick them for different reasons, and it just so happens that a fair number of AM's pros are relevant right now while void is buried in cons.
Current meta features which really hurt Void:
1. solar crest/glimmer/wyvern et al.
2. frequent, scrappy fights
3. early pushes
4. massive magic damage
5. every second spell piercing BKB
2 and 3 mean he has to fight without chrono half the time, while 1,4 and 5 make it very difficult for him to do his thing even when chrono is up. He can't farm particularly well under pressure, can't rely on his initiation/teamfight with so much damage and disruption around, and even has issues when he's big because he's forced to spend a lot of slots counter-countering support stuff. He's just not in a good place.
AM, on the other hand, is better than most at switching targets to deal with solar etc. He's fine with magic damage, and his ult is really good against all the big magic dps heroes. He also splitpushes much more safely than void, meaning he's pretty good at getting big in the face of push cheese. And even with all that going for him, his results have been pretty mixed, so I'm still not sure why he's become the poster boy for comparison.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 04 2015 12:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well the evasion change was made quite a while ago, 1.5 years at this point? I wasn't even considering that. Even then MKB wasn't bad because the damage is quite comparable to daedalas and the MKB lets you fight evasion outside your chrono in the past. Now it's just 100% better.
But this entire patch is the story of daedalas being a complete waste of money compared to MKB with all the cheap sources of evasion and no counters.
Less than a year ago.
MKB damage is never comparable to Daedalus as long as Daedalus is a luxury item. The crit scaling will beat bash every single time.
The need for MKB blows because this hero already had enough problems itemizing when Chronosphere was good. His skillset was made for one purpose, so he needed to account for everything else he lacked; his disjointed skillset makes it almost impossible to design effective hybrid builds or choose items that serve multiple functions. Now he can't even kill enemies reliably in Chrono. He's a waste of a pick/ban slot at this point.
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On September 04 2015 23:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 12:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well the evasion change was made quite a while ago, 1.5 years at this point? I wasn't even considering that. Even then MKB wasn't bad because the damage is quite comparable to daedalas and the MKB lets you fight evasion outside your chrono in the past. Now it's just 100% better.
But this entire patch is the story of daedalas being a complete waste of money compared to MKB with all the cheap sources of evasion and no counters. Less than a year ago. MKB damage is never comparable to Daedalus as long as Daedalus is a luxury item. The crit scaling will beat bash every single time. The need for MKB blows because this hero already had enough problems itemizing when Chronosphere was good. His skillset was made for one purpose, so he needed to account for everything else he lacked; his disjointed skillset makes it almost impossible to design effective hybrid builds or choose items that serve multiple functions. Now he can't even kill enemies reliably in Chrono. He's a waste of a pick/ban slot at this point.
I should clarify. In a 6 slot scenario and your 6th item being crit or MKB, then crit is significantly better. However as a first major damage item, IE: After MoM/mjollnir or just after MoM, the damage between the two are quite similar.
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United States2186 Posts
Daedalus is such a garbo item right now unless you're massively far ahead. Item always was pretty meh in most situations but now its just terrible 90% of the time with solar crest so ubiquitous and bfly still quite good.
Main problem really is that void gets pressured way too easily and its way too difficult to get the needed rhythm where he can freefarm and control the map by getting solo kills from fog with chrono and making the entire enemy team afraid whenever he's off the map.
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Given his new changes and how it looks like Le Ice Lizard wants Void in the offlane, and I also prefer the offlane, how would we go about building him? The loss of backtrack makes him decidedly less tanky so butterfly is mandatory now I would presume?
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What makes you think icefrog wants him to be an offlaner?
If he wants to do anything without chrono up you'd preferably want decent levels in time walk, but you also still want high levels of time lock. I actually really like the new timewalk, but 2 seconds is kind of short compared to most ccs in the game.
On the other hand, time dilation feels incredibly underwhelming in early levels. I can't think of any situation where you'd max it before time walk or time lock though.
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EPT
