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On March 03 2015 04:01 BluemoonSC wrote:
what if you're in a situation where your ally picks a crappy support for a tri lane but insists on making it work? or you want your offlaner to solo? if you can't get him to cooperate, that sort of thing?
Unless you get railroaded by the enemy team early you can use the time when lanes start breaking down to nab some lane farm for yourself and get yourself caught back up on levels. If you're behind on levels that you desperately need for the team the same skills a carry employs to keep their XPM & GPM high are the skills you'll want to use to find that farming space to catch up a bit.
Maybe I'm just greedy in these sorts of things, but I would identify the good carry or players and only put yourself at risk for their sake. If you have a safe lane Jugg with only a Morbid mask after 10 minutes of uncontested last hitting then don't sacrifice yourself for them. Positional 1-5 play is important, but in pubs you also probably want to consider the player skill in such things. There's no sense in making yourself weak for a carry who's going to be weak anyways; chances are such a carry will only get strong if the team does well for long enough to pull them up forcibly and that is only going to happen if you can play well.
Doubly so in terms of catching up for levels. If instead of self-sacrificing every fight if you take even 1-2 fights to really ensure you stay alive and grab some kill or assist XP then you'll catch up in levels in no time. Basically don't just blindly follow 1-5 play in pubs; make smart trades that concentrate your team's XP and Gold in the hands of who will use it well, not just the person who picked the safe lane carry*.
*Obviously don't be stupid and zealous about it, like don't steal your safelane's last hits or jungle space just because you can.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 03 2015 04:08 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2015 04:01 BluemoonSC wrote:
what if you're in a situation where your ally picks a crappy support for a tri lane but insists on making it work? or you want your offlaner to solo? if you can't get him to cooperate, that sort of thing? while i'm not entirely sure what the exact situation is that you are describing, with a dysfunctional team you basically have 2 options. 1) sell your soul to make it work out. Mediate. Pick shitty supports that ur team wants. debase urself. hope that their ego's will subside enough to make a functional team. 2) mass-mute ur team and play ur own game. Pick either a jungler and try to rice it out or pick a roamer and try to win the lanes for whichever are winnable (basically dodge their tri and gank the other two hard). As bad as say jungle luna is, most opponents will let you rice forever if u never show in a lane so at some point ur gonna have items and u can hope that's enough.
basically imagine a game where your teammate wants to run a trilane with you and him as a supports. however, he just wants to sit in lane and maybe deny a few creeps. he has no intention of getting aggressive at all, thus removing the opportunity for getting xp through kills. you could dual lane, but your offlaner has a decent lane and is getting good xp.
normally I stack and pull when possible, that sorta shit.
if I was playing a core, I get #2, im just curious how you will handle this situation. or is it bc there is no teamwork, you are going to have a hard time winning the game, mute everyone, and hope for the best?
I just feel like my ranked games are the most passive shit ever and we wind up losing bc we are not taking advantage of something, be it a stun, chrono, moonlight shadow, etc. and we get demolished bc the other team is doing something other than farm.
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United States47024 Posts
Being a support does not eliminate the possibility of creating your own tempo, so long as you don't pick a support that's really useless at doing that.
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If you're worried about the lane being overly passive you can also take heroes that can initiate aggression safely and have that aggression still be effective harass.
Like a Winter Wyvren can pull/stack, but show up in lane for Arctic Burn giving your allies a strong opportunity to take up the chance to be aggressive. If your allies don't follow through you have lost very little because the Arctic Burn is a strong harassing tool as well. WD with cask or CM's Crystal Nova would probably be other examples that you could try.
That and you can also support mid with gank attempts or rune control.
The other thing in my experience is how you ward has a huge influence on how aggressive your team is. Establish a good warding pattern that gives your team vision of where they can be aggressive and maintain that everytime you ward. I've been in a lot of games where very defensively placed wards or improperly placed ones (especially the pub keep wards on runes for 30 minutes mentality) will force me and my team to limit our aggression.
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I cannot win with Clockwerk despite doing all the things that I think a good Clockwerk should be doing. Does anyone have a VOD of a pro game with a particularly good Clockwerk doing Clockwerk things?
Also I know it's a team game. I just want to make sure I'm doing my part right.
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On March 03 2015 04:42 TheYango wrote:
Being a support does not eliminate the possibility of creating your own tempo, so long as you don't pick a support that's really useless at doing that.
One of my best/favorite heroes is VS who I play as a pretty hard support and yet I spend almost the whole game roaming the map for ganks and saving allies in team fights.
It just depends on the hero.
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Probably a stupid idea but...
Pick Dazzle.
Brood 4th pick to bait out a counterpick like Axe or Legion.
Safelane the brood, give spiderling control to Dazzle who jungles with them (tests seems to indicate that the combo of spiders and heal jungle really quickly after level 3).
Farmed Dazzle with medallion and/or Euls pops out of jungle regularly to explode heroes.
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On March 03 2015 05:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Probably a stupid idea but...
Pick Dazzle.
Brood 4th pick to bait out a counterpick like Axe or Legion.
Safelane the brood, give spiderling control to Dazzle who jungles with them (tests seems to indicate that the combo of spiders and heal jungle really quickly after level 3).
Farmed Dazzle with medallion and/or Euls pops out of jungle regularly to explode heroes.
welcome to potm bottom/dignitas 2013
it does work
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United States47024 Posts
Safelane Brood + greedy support jungling has been around way longer than even DotA 2 (basically since the point that people realized that Brood could win 1v2 safe lane even while donating her Spiderlings to a support to farm with).
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well the specific dazzle heal bomb with spiders thing was done by potm bottom i mean
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 03 2015 04:42 TheYango wrote:
Being a support does not eliminate the possibility of creating your own tempo, so long as you don't pick a support that's really useless at doing that.
fair enough. perhaps i have just been unlucky enough to be the support stacking and shit and whenever i make an appearance in lane, we are just not on the same page.
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On March 03 2015 05:36 DinoMight wrote:
I cannot win with Clockwerk despite doing all the things that I think a good Clockwerk should be doing. Does anyone have a VOD of a pro game with a particularly good Clockwerk doing Clockwerk things?
Also I know it's a team game. I just want to make sure I'm doing my part right.
You'd need to give more information for any advice, but you can go to dotabuff and just look up the match ID of a top clockwerk player.
Though imo the #1 mistake I see clockwerks make that pros don't is the layering of their abilities. So many players Hook -> Cogs -> Battery -> Flare but a top tier clockwerk knows when they can hook -> battery or hook -> cog and save their other cooldowns to have more presence in the follow up teamfight or to chase out the kill.
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On March 03 2015 06:28 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2015 04:42 TheYango wrote:
Being a support does not eliminate the possibility of creating your own tempo, so long as you don't pick a support that's really useless at doing that. fair enough. perhaps i have just been unlucky enough to be the support stacking and shit and whenever i make an appearance in lane, we are just not on the same page.
To get around this I just make sure to talk to my team alot and let them know what I'm doing when I'm not in lane. I'll say things like: "going to stack this camp then coming mid to gank, is that ok?"
That way no one is surprised when I show up and we get a lot of pick-offs. Keeps the game fun and keeps your carries happy so they can farm instead of bitch about the supports not doing their job.
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max swag is battery -> hook -> cogs really. not always good though.
although one of the biggest things that less good clockworks don't do is reposition to use cogs as a push away instead of a hold-in after hook.
Like the best clockworks routinely hook -> move briefly -> cogs which push the baddy back into ur team while zoning the other team more effectively. Whereas a random clockwork would just hook + cogs and hold the baddy in, which has a lower chance to kill and a higher chance to die (in some situations obviously not all). The hook has to be very precisely placed for this to work though as you don't have time to go all the way around the baddy to force them back.
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On March 03 2015 06:43 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2015 05:36 DinoMight wrote:
I cannot win with Clockwerk despite doing all the things that I think a good Clockwerk should be doing. Does anyone have a VOD of a pro game with a particularly good Clockwerk doing Clockwerk things?
Also I know it's a team game. I just want to make sure I'm doing my part right. You'd need to give more information for any advice, but you can go to dotabuff and just look up the match ID of a top clockwerk player. Though imo the #1 mistake I see clockwerks make that pros don't is the layering of their abilities. So many players Hook -> Cogs -> Battery -> Flare but a top tier clockwerk knows when they can hook -> battery or hook -> cog and save their other cooldowns to have more presence in the follow up teamfight.
Yeah. I'm a bit guilty of blowing all my spells at once when I get a good hook in. But at the same time I'm usually targeting down guys who are big problems for the team (Sniper, CM/WD ult, etc.) and taking them down pretty fast. I usually only pick Clock when their team has a bunch of high DPS/low health characters that I can hook onto and kill quickly in a fight. Will try to be a bit more economical with my spells, thanks.
Also will check out Dotabuff.
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On March 03 2015 06:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
max swag is battery -> hook -> cogs really. not always good though.
although one of the biggest things that less good clockworks don't do is reposition to use cogs as a push away instead of a hold-in after hook.
Like the best clockworks routinely hook -> move briefly -> cogs which push the baddy back into ur team while zoning the other team more effectively. Whereas a random clockwork would just hook + cogs and hold the baddy in, which has a lower chance to kill and a higher chance to die (in some situations obviously not all). The hook has to be very precisely placed for this to work though as you don't have time to go all the way around the baddy to force them back.
Yeah that too! Mastering pushing people out of cogs is probably as important as trapping them in.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2015 06:47 Sn0_Man wrote:
max swag is battery -> hook -> cogs really. not always good though.
although one of the biggest things that less good clockworks don't do is reposition to use cogs as a push away instead of a hold-in after hook.
Like the best clockworks routinely hook -> move briefly -> cogs which push the baddy back into ur team while zoning the other team more effectively. Whereas a random clockwork would just hook + cogs and hold the baddy in, which has a lower chance to kill and a higher chance to die (in some situations obviously not all). The hook has to be very precisely placed for this to work though as you don't have time to go all the way around the baddy to force them back.
Another important point is that against heroes with escapes, you sometimes want to approach with Battery Assault (using Force, Eul's, MS advantage, or positioning) and use it to force them to blow their escape or die, then use Hook+Cogs to catch them after. This allows you to kill some heroes that would normally get away with your standard Battery->Hook->Cogs engage.
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My problem is more in the late game. I feel like with the amount of killing I'm doing picking off people here and there my team should have a lot of space to farm and be good in the late game, but we just end up getting out carried eventually. It comes to a point where, sure, I can pick off a support or two, but nothing any of us can do kills the enemy carry.
Does this mean maybe I'm picking Clock vs. the wrong type of team or with the wrong kind of allies? Should I make sure that if I'm picking him we have a Faceless or Medusa etc... someone who can take advantage of the free farming provided?
Yeah, I know there's always the "maybe everyone I play with sucks" probability but I want to avoid going down that road since it's not particularly useful.
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United States47024 Posts
Well, without an actual game provided, it's hard to assess the specifics.
That said, I feel the most common cause of what you describe is that you're getting kills, but you're not actually getting map control. Random pick-offs are meaningless if they aren't actually reducing the enemy's farming space. You need to establish aggressive vision and vision denial so that the enemy is scared to farm. Your goal isn't just to create space for your carry but also to reduce the enemies' as well. Buy wards, place them, buy a gem, kill enemy wards.
The other thing to remember is that your farm matters too. Don't get too caught up running around the map that you fuck your own XP/gold gains. One farmed enemy carry can't handle a whole team of 5 farmed enemy heroes--but this means you have to be farming too to remain dangerous lategame. A ton of your potential lategame items like Shiva's, Agha, etc. are super important to your lategame usefulness.
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clock is excellent for disrupting farmed carries too, you don't have to just "kill the supports". Don't forget, hookshot stuns through BKB and they can't run out of cogs even if BKB'd as well. You can always just hook+cogs their enormous tiny and just turn on blademail. If he BKB's, you forcestaff out of ur cogs and he has to sit there hitting cogs while his team dies. Clock has perfectly fine farming capability in between skirmishes with flare good for farming both empty lanes as well as helping flash farm and battery assault being great for clearing the jungle in a pinch.
Itemization is very hard on clockwerk though. Blademail, forcestaff and aghs are all near-core but leave you with limited damage and only passable survivability. It's important to realize when you need to skip some of those for more defensive or offensive items depending on the game. Orchid clock is one that i saw recently that really opens up options for ganking more evasive heroes.
Clock is a complex hero, chances are there isn't any 1 thing that you are doing wrong that is going to fix ur game.
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EPT
