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On February 28 2015 06:34 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
How would you pick supports in a trilane? Is there some system for greedy vs defensive vs aggressive?
theres a few options
you could do whatever the fuck u want
you could theorycraft super hard
you could read this guide on TL that i'm not sure I agree with but at least gets you thinking about it:
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-strategy/465232-the-art-of-support-part-1
up 2 u
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United States12269 Posts
I'm far from a top player or a top drafter but my philosophy is that in a defensive tri, your goal is to get your supports levels through pulling and jungling and get the carry some safe farm while the other support zones out the offlaner, but in an aggro tri, your goal is to fight early and often and get a bunch of kills. For a defensive tri I'd opt for heroes like Dazzle, Rhasta, or Sand King. For an aggro tri I'd want supports like Venge, WD, or Ogre. As for whether you want an aggro tri or defensive tri, that depends on who your farming core is and whether your 1v1 matchup (your safelaner vs their offlaner) is going to be favorable.
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Ty, both of you
Follow-up question: why is the courier able to eat cheese?
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On February 28 2015 07:23 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I'm far from a top player or a top drafter but my philosophy is that in a defensive tri, your goal is to get your supports levels through pulling and jungling and get the carry some safe farm while the other support zones out the offlaner, but in an aggro tri, your goal is to fight early and often and get a bunch of kills. For a defensive tri I'd opt for heroes like Dazzle, Rhasta, or Sand King. For an aggro tri I'd want supports like Venge, WD, or Ogre. As for whether you want an aggro tri or defensive tri, that depends on who your farming core is and whether your 1v1 matchup (your safelaner vs their offlaner) is going to be favorable.
Rhasta sucks in tris, low armor, high mana cost, needs levels and farm. Generally you want to pick something that a) gives you sustain b) can outharass the other supports.
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Using Ler's Aggressive/Defensive/Greedy thing, I feel like the most reliable pub defensive tris are probably Aggressive+Defensive or Aggressive+Greedy combos.
An aggressive support like sky can usually solo-zone the offlaner, especially if there's the threat of another support joining the party. Since sky/venge/whatever are terrifying on their own, the second support doesn't need to be particularly scary and you can have a rhasta pull/jungle for levels while remaining a threat. If you use a defensive +1 instead (eg. dazzle), you make yourself safer against enemy aggro tris at the cost of a bit of midgame power. Both are pretty stable.
Double greedy is asking for trouble, double defensive or greedy+defensive might not be able to exert enough pressure on the lane. But really it comes down to the individual hero synergy and what the expected offlane is, as well as how much you need to roam.
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What is the most last hits you can get from Lane Farm (no jungle) by 5min/10/15/20/25Min. want to know, but I'm not in math mood to include catapults and extra creeps.
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On March 01 2015 01:33 Rodrak wrote:
What is the most last hits you can get from Lane Farm (no jungle) by 5min/10/15/20/25Min. want to know, but I'm not in math mood to include catapults and extra creeps.
Four creeps per wave until 17 minutes, a catapult every seventh wave (3m30), so:
- 5 minutes - 41 creeps
- 10 minutes - 82 creeps
- 15 minutes - 124 creeps
- 20 minutes - 171 creeps
- 25 minutes - 223 creeps
Can guarantee that you will forget this by next week; it's not that hard to get it all right by yourself (all the mechanics are explained at dota2.gamepedia.com/Creeps) and it lets you remember it easier.
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If you want to complicate the question (a lot) add heroes that can be on multiple lanes at the same time. Then you have the timing of when you can be at that place at the earliest as a complication. Meepo, Chen and NP are good examples that can get more than just one lanes last hits early on.
Furthermore you can add flash farmers and TP scrolls to the equation. That way you can have more than one lanes farm without jungle.
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On March 01 2015 02:03 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 01:33 Rodrak wrote:
What is the most last hits you can get from Lane Farm (no jungle) by 5min/10/15/20/25Min. want to know, but I'm not in math mood to include catapults and extra creeps. Four creeps per wave until 17 minutes, a catapult every seventh wave (3m30), so: - 5 minutes - 41 creeps
- 10 minutes - 82 creeps
- 15 minutes - 124 creeps
- 20 minutes - 171 creeps
- 25 minutes - 223 creeps
In practice, the side lane creep waves take about 30 seconds to arrive in lane; you would usually need to creep-skip to finish off the 4:30 wave by the 5-minute mark. So 37 by 5 is ideal for a safe lane farmer under normal laning conditions, as 38+ implies the lane is pushed at the 5 minute mark.
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When I jungle, which creep should I kill first? Coming from SC2, I have the mindset of always kill the low hp creep first (to eliminate their dps as soon as possible). I wonder if that's still true in Dota 2, especially after watching a fast roshan ursa guide that dictates hitting biggest creep first.
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Anybody want to play with my friend and I? US East, I'd say were good but not amazing. Our resource of steam friends has ran out (they never get on). So come play with us? Only 2 Requirements; English and cooperation, thanks.
Steam Account( So you can add): http://steamcommunity.com/id/r0drak/
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In the simplest case, what matters is (damage) per (time to kill). You can find these numbers on various wiki pages. But there are other complications.
Ursa's DPS increases as he hits a single target. So the large creeps have a higher damage per time-to-kill than normal.
Also, the large Wildwings and Satyrs have auras which make the others slightly harder to kill. So if you're HP stable no matter what, and only care about speed, kill them first.
Finally, if you're using an AoE skill to jungle, it's usually worthwhile to leave the small critters alive as long as possible to get more value from the AoEs.
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On March 01 2015 03:53 Buckyman wrote:In the simplest case, what matters is (damage) per (time to kill). You can find these numbers on various wiki pages. But there are other complications. Ursa's DPS increases as he hits a single target. So the large creeps have a higher damage per time-to-kill than normal. Also, the large Wildwings and Satyrs have auras which make the others slightly harder to kill. So if you're HP stable no matter what, and only care about speed, kill them first. Finally, if you're using an AoE skill to jungle, it's usually worthwhile to leave the small critters alive as long as possible to get more value from the AoEs.
I think in DotA2 most of the large creeps seem to usually scale at worst even in terms of survivability and hp. Like the Alpha wolf has 100 more HP, but deals +9 dmg with a lower BAT (something around a 40% dps increase for 20% hp increase). Sometimes the big creep also is weaker; the hellbear smasher has less armor than the hellbear but the same hp. Plus if you have a stout shield the big creeps will deal significant more because of how the flat dmg block works. The only one where that's not generally the case are the ancients, but I don't know when/how often that matters.
Though I'm sure there are exceptions or more rules to it all someone can fill in.
The theory in SC2 only applies because there's usually a set worth of a unit between it's hp, damage, and cost and if you don't target down low HP units and reduce your enemy's DPS then your own DPS will start to go down as your units get picked off, something which has no DotA2 equivalent and creeps aren't necessarily balanced against each other.
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You also have to consider the different physical damage types that different neutral creeps deal. The Centaur Conqueror, Satyr Tormentor, and Wildwing Ripper all deal Chaos damage, which does 100% to heroes, where the smaller creeps in their camps all deal Normal or Piercing damage, which do 75% and 50% respectively. Both the Hellbear Smasher and the Hellbear deal Chaos damage, though.
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SoCal8933 Posts
I've noticed that lately I have been gaining levels pretty slowly as a support. usually people think that running a tri means that I sit in lane and steal xp from my carry, so I run around stacking and pulling (if I don't miss it bc someone needs help), secure runes etc.
but I always find that I am really lacking in levels as we approach 10 minutes.
I feel like I'm doing the right thing but whenever we tri lane, the other support is useless or doesn't bother to try and put pressure on the offlaner so there's no point in me staying in lane and splitting xp 3 ways.
I wind up playing position 6 support bc I will always save the carry and wind up dying, but buying all of the wards, upgrading the courier etc.
does hero choice play into these results?
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On March 03 2015 02:30 BluemoonSC wrote:
I've noticed that lately I have been gaining levels pretty slowly as a support. usually people think that running a tri means that I sit in lane and steal xp from my carry, so I run around stacking and pulling (if I don't miss it bc someone needs help), secure runes etc.
but I always find that I am really lacking in levels as we approach 10 minutes.
I feel like I'm doing the right thing but whenever we tri lane, the other support is useless or doesn't bother to try and put pressure on the offlaner so there's no point in me staying in lane and splitting xp 3 ways.
I wind up playing position 6 support bc I will always save the carry and wind up dying, but buying all of the wards, upgrading the courier etc.
does hero choice play into these results?
It can be, because supports should be getting gold/XP through stacking/pulling or through hero kills. If the hero kills don't come early because you're not on a good hero for it, then you'll be low level.
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SoCal8933 Posts
what if you're in a situation where your ally picks a crappy support for a tri lane but insists on making it work? or you want your offlaner to solo? if you can't get him to cooperate, that sort of thing?
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I post about it in the QQ thread.
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On March 03 2015 04:01 BluemoonSC wrote:
what if you're in a situation where your ally picks a crappy support for a tri lane but insists on making it work? or you want your offlaner to solo? if you can't get him to cooperate, that sort of thing?
while i'm not entirely sure what the exact situation is that you are describing, with a dysfunctional team you basically have 2 options.
1) sell your soul to make it work out. Mediate. Pick shitty supports that ur team wants. debase urself. hope that their ego's will subside enough to make a functional team.
2) mass-mute ur team and play ur own game. Pick either a jungler and try to rice it out or pick a roamer and try to win the lanes for whichever are winnable (basically dodge their tri and gank the other two hard). As bad as say jungle luna is, most opponents will let you rice forever if u never show in a lane so at some point ur gonna have items and u can hope that's enough.
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EPT
