EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1050
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:37 Slardar wrote: Doesn't feel like Phoenix is a strong 4th or 5th position to me, he has nothing truly scaling into the later stages of the game that any other support can bring to the table. Spell damage gradually becomes negligible. I guess we can count the spirits giving -attack speed but that's about it. In my mind he's stuck in the 3rd niche role aggressor which can really control the tempo with mek and davaiiii diving. It's not strong, it's just passable. Though the one case where it can work out very well is dual lanes where your dual lane is really good at getting kills. Phoenix does great low level damage (120/480 at rank 1/2 of fire spirits) that also offers a lot of early defensive strength (attack speed slow). When paired with someone who can exert lane control, especially a disable or slow, you can make a really aggressive and strong dual lane. If that person is someone who needs farm more than Phoenix you're pretty much playing a 4th Phoenix (but a very greedy 4th) in a kill focused lane where the XPM should still pan out to be decent enough to hit the ability to hold that aggressor tempo. Also don't build mek on Phoenix in almost all situations. It's awful on her now and she's a terrible mek carrier because it kills her mana pool on a hero that doesn't want any mid/early game items to extend that mana pool. Plus most times you'll probably do more healing by getting a Midas for extra XP and then having higher ranks of Sun Ray earlier. Edit: And yeah like FHDH said she can also cut Dive for Sun Ray if she's behind on XP and still put out a very strong heal + dmg ability in teamfights on top of the control provided by fire spirits. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
You probably have to get Arcanes, and it feels bad, but not having a Meka at all is still worse. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:13 TheYango wrote: Meka on Phoenix is still better than no Meka for a hero that plays such a teamfight-centric game. She's a bad Meka hero and you should pick someone else to carry it, but if your team doesn't have one, you still probably have to. You probably have to get Arcanes, and it feels bad, but not having a Meka at all is still worse. I don't see how you survive the tail end (well like 4min +) of the laning phase without tranquils or tranquils coming soon really unless you're giving up farm to the carry by not pressuring them. Plus even if you are going arcanes you probably need to buy the RoP or something equivalent to start which makes the cost of arcanes hurt that much more. I mean you can ferry more tangos or whatever, but it seems like you're giving up a lot. Then you lose out on tempo control because Phoenix's strength is having no downtime on her ganks outside of those with Supernova usage and you lose out on so much of her aggressive mobility potential with the slower boots. It also kills how you are going to use your ult. A lot of big fights early on you want to Dive -> Spirit -> Ult very fast, but if you need to be able to mek your team then you can't be sitting in an egg at the key moment. Do you give up urn? Phoenix is an urn charge magnet and it's such a strong item on her (that little bit of hp padding does wonders as well), but if you go Arcane -> Urn -> Mek I don't see how you get a good mek timing anyways. Then on top of that you give up Midas so you can't hit a smooth timing transitions for max Sun Ray and 11 & 16 Supernova or secure anything like a Shiva's. If it's not a pub I just would not draft Phoenix if you don't have a real mek carrier. (FWIW I think Pros have almost entirely abandoned mek on Phoenix it's only been built 9 times on her in 6.83 comp dota compared to 40 times for Hand of Midas). EDIT: it seems like top dotabuff Phoenix players go mek rarely, i.e. when they have to only, but they stick to tranquil and usually urn even when they grab mek. Then ditch the midas for mek and grab eul's, ghost, force, or atos to fill out the mana pool and probably just suffer the crappy mana situation or rely on someone else's arcane boots. Some games they also seem content to just let there be no mek at all. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 26 2015 09:28 BluemoonSC wrote: if you're gonna dual lane instead of letting her get a fast level six in a solo off role, i'd rather dual lane with the 4 or 5 position support that can get aggressive and let the phoenix farm. It's more that if things happens the other way around it's not devastating. Like if you early pick Phoenix or are determined to play Phoenix for whatever reason then it's not that bad of a situation if you end up in some position 4 spots. It's not like if the same were to happen to you trying to play sniper or something. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
the correct answer is that she is not impactful as a 4 or 5 and should be played as a 3, with potential to play a 2 in the right situation. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 26 2015 10:16 BluemoonSC wrote: i'd like to point out the original question was which position phoenix *should* play. the correct answer is that she is not impactful as a 4 or 5 and should be played as a 3, with potential to play a 2 in the right situation. The original question was not actually that direct, but I agree with the rest of what you're saying. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
On February 26 2015 23:13 Ryndika wrote: Does armor help against techies mines? Visage and axe can just kekroll over them? The proximity mines are physical damage, so is suicide but the remote mines (ult) are magical. So armour does help against the proximity mines but not the remote ones. That said visage has 0 armour at level one and actually decent HP (~600) so if you walk into like 2-3 mines you die, and you won't get gravekeeper's cloak until lvl 3-4. and each mine will remove a stack of cloak. On axe you do better I guess. Basically yes armour helps they still do a lot of damage and will probably kill you anyway. Buy detection. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
nearly 6 armor and like 750 hp with no items at level 1 But yeah visage actually is pretty weak because each mine takes off a cloak instance so 4 of them and ur at well below normal armor/magic resist. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 27 2015 01:13 Sn0_Man wrote: be spirit breaker and charge all over those motherfuckers nearly 6 armor and like 750 hp with no items at level 1 But yeah visage actually is pretty weak because each mine takes off a cloak instance so 4 of them and ur at well below normal armor/magic resist. Even if Visage is ok, will the familiars activate and take damage from the physical mines? The birds are as much of visage as the main hero is really. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 27 2015 01:17 Logo wrote: Even if Visage is ok, will the familiars activate and take damage from the physical mines? The birds are as much of visage as the main hero is really. They trigger mines and take damage. Though Valve has done a shitty job of cleaning up flying unit interactions with land mines. Flying WW and Bat ignore mines, but Rubick stealing their respective spells doesn't. Either all flying units should ignore mines or all should trigger them, but we have this half-ported state where some do and some don't. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 27 2015 01:56 Sn0_Man wrote: it doesn't "bypass" abba ult it's that each mine does up to 750 damage each (minus magic resist of course) so there's always the chance that you go from 450 to 0 hp without ever going into the magical trigger range of 400 or less hp. Ah, that makes more sense. | ||
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