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On September 20 2012 21:38 Meta wrote:
I recently started playing invoker a lot, and I found that as a new player, invoking off-spells was easier by pressing things like EQE (forge spirits), QWQ (ghost walk), as opposed to QEE or WQQ. It just felt better than double tapping a key, it seemed faster/more precise to me. I don't know if other people feel the same way, but I think it's a decent way to learn Invoker's spells.
This is actually kinda cool. I might start doing this to make my invokes easier to remember in my mind. QQQ WWW EEE QWE are all easy to remember. EQE for forge, EWE for meteor, QWQ for ghost, QEQ for ice, WQW for tornado, WEW for alacrity. Very interesting.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Yeah when I first started playing Invoker, I invoked skills with QWQR, EWER, WQWR etc. Then for some reason when I became really comfortable with the hero I reverted back to QQWR etc.
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United States40 Posts
On September 21 2012 03:24 wcLLg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 02:30 Firebolt145 wrote:On September 21 2012 01:59 wcLLg wrote:On September 20 2012 15:38 Firebolt145 wrote:The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this: This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it. You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer. I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff). Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak. Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW. http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6. Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part. Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks. The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time. You watch one game and you conclude that an early point in Wex is important. I screwed up against the Storm Spirit, I was far too aggressive against his DD rune. Doctor Chopper is also a pretty good Storm player and he immediately took advantage of my bad positioning and killed me. Feel free to watch the many other games where I don't die this early. Drums or exort Invoker in progames? Have you not been watching any games with Dendi or Pajkatt playing Invoker? I stand by my 'fewer teamfight spells' because you should NOT be using meteor or tornado in early teamfights. Your Invoke has a 22, 17 and 12 second cooldown before level 17 or Aghanims, and if you're choosing to spend that cooldown on a small Tornado or Chaos Meteor with 1 in Wex instead of a Forge Spirit, Cold Snap, Ice wall or Sunstrike, you're making the wrong choice. Ghost walk is the only Wex spell that you should be using before you have at least 2+ points in Wex. Thank you for your feedback. Here is what you got to do bud: go to the international tab in dota 2 and find a game with a drums invoker...it was rare. I haven't looked very hard but only Jeyo went drums. Therefore it is not core. And if you think meteor is not a good spell with only 1 lvl of wex you clearly don't know how to use it. Good luck in low priority or where ever you happen to play. What I say stands. If you had gotten one level of wex at 6 you would have lived. I only needed to watch one game to see the gaping flaw in your fail build which gets forge spirits at lvl 10 instead of 11. And you are mistaken again. I said there are applications where nado is useful even at one level of wex. I almost never use nado except to set up meteor or in the late game. It debuffs runes among other things (and this is not in your guide?) and can disable tps along with cold snap and deafening blast. Would you like to see a replay where Ferrari_430 uses this build to great effectiveness? He is the inventor of the QW Invoker after all. I think he knows how to play the hero. And I don't know if you were aware of how hard the Chinese dominated the International, but they did. And they don't go drums on invoker anymore. If it is still 'core' it's because you still belong to the EU/NA meta which is still behind the Chinese meta like it always has been and always will be.
it's interesting to me that you would argue for the early point in wex, i think a true qe invoker player would never get an early point in wex unless the situation was dire, and even then you might as well just tell your team you failed at mid and ask for a rotation because that would feel better than throwing a point in wex,
the qe style is the most immobile style and the only way for you to move out of mid is to get the 2 forge spirits and a force staff,
maybe this falls under the "bad" western meta, but i have seen dendi on stream not put an early point in wex even under intense lane pressure (by intense i mean he was getting killed left and right by dual lane / constant ganks--don't have source if you want to call bs we can just agree to disagree).
guidemaker you should really post up a dendi style QE that involves blink dagger force staff, also it's discussed that invoker died to storm as QE, Storm spirit is the single strongest hard counter to QE invoker in the current dota2, on stream dendi will use QW invoker play against SS mids because QE is hard countered even though he's said elsewhere that he doesn't practice QW and prefers QE.
one thing i'd ask is people's thoughts on the current (possible) meta shift of invoker play given the upcoming patch?
Puppey and Synderen briefly discussed it on tobi's show but they really didn't take into account what icefrog was trying to do by decreasing the damage, and i think the end result of the nerf is to re-vitalize QE play by de-valuing QW indirectly
oh yeah, last point just from what i've seen i don't think you should discount glass cannon / combat style WE play as being so bad, i think Empire? or someone on EU was doing this and it can still be wildly effective, it's the most unstable build for sure but just because a hero needs to snowball to win doesn't make it bad--> see pudge
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You should always get an early point in wex before level 7. Also I wouldn't really base my play on dendi's stream. It's like basing it on Singsing's.
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I can't make QW work for me at all. QE's damage is too good to pass up.
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you should add a section about laning against certain heroes. every once in a while i'll be really surprised going mid against someone who clearly knows how to play against invoker. most recently i faced a very aggressive SD who would spam poison to harass+lh, rushed bottle to keep up poison+disruption+catcher combos, and be really careful about getting caught out of position with coldsnap.
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Huskar and KoTL are not fun to solo vs as Invoker 
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On September 29 2012 02:22 Firebolt145 wrote:
Yeah when I first started playing Invoker, I invoked skills with QWQR, EWER, WQWR etc. Then for some reason when I became really comfortable with the hero I reverted back to QQWR etc.
I started trying "qwq" instead of "qqw" when practicing the "invoker trainer", to see if I could do just a bit quicker. After a day I was up to 41 spells invoked in 30 seconds, instead of the regular 31-32.
But, the second I went into a normal game, I went right back to qqw. I guess I'm simply just that much more comfortable with it. Besides, even with scepter, you have a 2 sec cooldown. So its not like you physically can invoker more than once every 2 sec.
On September 26 2012 23:14 Kishin2 wrote:
Also +1 to going Quas first for QE. Cold snap at level 2 is great for lane control and there's the added bonus of the enemy team not knowing whether you're going QE or QW at the start.
Since I first suggested this, there was a patch nerfing Invoker base damage. This pretty much forces you to pick exort first, as you wont get a single lasthit against a decent opponent otherwise (You can still go quas first vs pudge, because you'll just hit him 4-5 times with cold snap if he tries to get close. But your opponent would have to go complete retard to try pudge mid vs invoker in the first place).
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Whereas before I would occasionally consider Q at lvl 1 when going QE, I don't do that any more. Also the tango/salve + blades of attack + 1 gg branch is now even stronger when compared to the other starting items suggestion.
Hopefully I'll be able to do an update sometime over the next week or two. There isn't really much to change, only new stuff to add. I may actually do a WE section after all.
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as i told u when u wrote the guide, an invoker guide is forever incomplete until u fill in WE, the best invoker
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Happy birthday kupo!
Anyway, good guide but after the nerf to invokers base damage do you always start with the blades/healing stuff start? or do you still use the other one?
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On October 17 2012 14:04 LazyFailKid wrote:
Happy birthday kupo!
Anyway, good guide but after the nerf to invokers base damage do you always start with the blades/healing stuff start? or do you still use the other one?
With QW, yes. With QE I stick to the tango/salve/circlet+3 gg branches. You don't have the inbuilt regen to just go 1 tango/salve.
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I have played a total of about 35 games of invoker, I like the assist potential of exort invoker better than the wes simply because it's better in early game lane phase ganking phase of the game. But if the team doesn't have good stun or something to set up the sunstrike then it's ganna be hard to use. In those cases I would go wes instead.
Here is a question. I had been trying to get eul to combo with sunstrike and meteor, what's is the order of cast and what is the timing? Do I eul and then meteor right away and then drop sunstrike? or do i eul sunstrke and meteor? do i wait 1 second before sunstrike and meteor after eul?
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So I've watched about 10-15 games each of both Ferrari's and Dendi's pub invoker games, though only Ferrari recently (post 6.75). Dendi tends to go QE almost exclusively, and this is possibly why he doesn't play invoker very often anymore in pro matches. Anyway, I find Ferrari's pub invoker play really interesting because of how safe and effective it is. Couple things to note:
1. He very very often opens with 3 points in Quas. It gives him great lane control and safety, and sometimes an extra cold snap proc. If he decides to go wex the tornado is still just as powerful in terms of damage if he went 2 points or even 1 (though I have never seen that; always at least 2 points when opening Quas)
2. After opening Q he will sometimes start levelling Exort. I've seen this at least 3 times, and he still is surprisingly effective, though I would argue that Dendi's sunstrike placement is much better than Ferrari's.
3. When doing QW, a level 3 Quas cold snap into a tornado is almost always a guaranteed kill against mid heroes who do not have a blink or damage mitigation. I've seen Ferrari get fed just by killing his lane opponent at level 5 or 6 and then doing it once or twice more upon respawn, then having tornado + snap invoked at all times and picking people off through the rest of the game. I've done this myself against my lane opponents in pubs to great effect. Though my execution is sloppier I often get an early kill or first blood. (sometimes you die to tower afterward but that's not a big deal)
4. When doing the Scandal-style eul's gank, you do Eul's, wait a little bit under 1 sec (0.8 I believe) then drop a sunstrike, drop the meteor a little after, and then the deafening right as the Eul's expires. Almost always a guaranteed kill.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:58 rei wrote:
I have played a total of about 35 games of invoker, I like the assist potential of exort invoker better than the wes simply because it's better in early game lane phase ganking phase of the game. But if the team doesn't have good stun or something to set up the sunstrike then it's ganna be hard to use. In those cases I would go wes instead.
Here is a question. I had been trying to get eul to combo with sunstrike and meteor, what's is the order of cast and what is the timing? Do I eul and then meteor right away and then drop sunstrike? or do i eul sunstrke and meteor? do i wait 1 second before sunstrike and meteor after eul?
Of course using sunstrike becomes a lot easier with disables on your team, but it's still possible to hit sunstrikes without disables. Just need to try and predict what the opponent will do. Is he going to run away and try to juke into those trees, or is he chasing your ally? Definitely tricky and risky, but incredibly satisfying when you hit them.
I personally have never played with Euls and maxed sunstrike, but off the top of my head I would say going euls -> wait ~1 second -> sunstrike -> meteor + invoke deafening blast -> deafening blast as quickly as possible would be the best way of doing it.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On November 22 2012 06:15 wherebugsgo wrote:
So I've watched about 10-15 games each of both Ferrari's and Dendi's pub invoker games, though only Ferrari recently (post 6.75). Dendi tends to go QE almost exclusively, and this is possibly why he doesn't play invoker very often anymore in pro matches. Anyway, I find Ferrari's pub invoker play really interesting because of how safe and effective it is. Couple things to note:
1. He very very often opens with 3 points in Quas. It gives him great lane control and safety, and sometimes an extra cold snap proc. If he decides to go wex the tornado is still just as powerful in terms of damage if he went 2 points or even 1 (though I have never seen that; always at least 2 points when opening Quas)
2. After opening Q he will sometimes start levelling Exort. I've seen this at least 3 times, and he still is surprisingly effective, though I would argue that Dendi's sunstrike placement is much better than Ferrari's.
3. When doing QW, a level 3 Quas cold snap into a tornado is almost always a guaranteed kill against mid heroes who do not have a blink or damage mitigation. I've seen Ferrari get fed just by killing his lane opponent at level 5 or 6 and then doing it once or twice more upon respawn, then having tornado + snap invoked at all times and picking people off through the rest of the game. I've done this myself against my lane opponents in pubs to great effect. Though my execution is sloppier I often get an early kill or first blood. (sometimes you die to tower afterward but that's not a big deal)
4. When doing the Scandal-style eul's gank, you do Eul's, wait a little bit under 1 sec (0.8 I believe) then drop a sunstrike, drop the meteor a little after, and then the deafening right as the Eul's expires. Almost always a guaranteed kill.
1. I assume you mean going QRQWQ, because QRQQ is not possible (can't get a third point of a spell at lvl 4). And yes, in most games I'd recommend going for a third point of Quas, unless you find yourself taking extremely little harass. This is quite unlikely against most popular solo mid heroes such as TA/QoP etc.
2. If you mean going QRQEEERE, then yes that is definitely an option. Do you prefer having a little more regen or last hit damage, exort or sunstrike at lvl 2? I actually find myself going ERQEEQRE quite often nowadays, when I want that last hit damage to help win last hits + early sunstrike to help ganks, as well as cold snap before level 4 to help harass.
3. I'll add that into the guide as a little tip, thanks.
4. Didn't notice you had answered his question as well ^_^
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On November 22 2012 07:13 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 06:15 wherebugsgo wrote:
So I've watched about 10-15 games each of both Ferrari's and Dendi's pub invoker games, though only Ferrari recently (post 6.75). Dendi tends to go QE almost exclusively, and this is possibly why he doesn't play invoker very often anymore in pro matches. Anyway, I find Ferrari's pub invoker play really interesting because of how safe and effective it is. Couple things to note:
1. He very very often opens with 3 points in Quas. It gives him great lane control and safety, and sometimes an extra cold snap proc. If he decides to go wex the tornado is still just as powerful in terms of damage if he went 2 points or even 1 (though I have never seen that; always at least 2 points when opening Quas)
2. After opening Q he will sometimes start levelling Exort. I've seen this at least 3 times, and he still is surprisingly effective, though I would argue that Dendi's sunstrike placement is much better than Ferrari's.
3. When doing QW, a level 3 Quas cold snap into a tornado is almost always a guaranteed kill against mid heroes who do not have a blink or damage mitigation. I've seen Ferrari get fed just by killing his lane opponent at level 5 or 6 and then doing it once or twice more upon respawn, then having tornado + snap invoked at all times and picking people off through the rest of the game. I've done this myself against my lane opponents in pubs to great effect. Though my execution is sloppier I often get an early kill or first blood. (sometimes you die to tower afterward but that's not a big deal)
4. When doing the Scandal-style eul's gank, you do Eul's, wait a little bit under 1 sec (0.8 I believe) then drop a sunstrike, drop the meteor a little after, and then the deafening right as the Eul's expires. Almost always a guaranteed kill. 1. I assume you mean going QRQWQ, because QRQQ is not possible (can't get a third point of a spell at lvl 4). And yes, in most games I'd recommend going for a third point of Quas, unless you find yourself taking extremely little harass. This is quite unlikely against most popular solo mid heroes such as TA/QoP etc. 2. If you mean going QRQEEERE, then yes that is definitely an option. Do you prefer having a little more regen or last hit damage, exort or sunstrike at lvl 2? I actually find myself going ERQEEQRE quite often nowadays, when I want that last hit damage to help win last hits + early sunstrike to help ganks, as well as cold snap before level 4 to help harass. 3. I'll add that into the guide as a little tip, thanks. 4. Didn't notice you had answered his question as well ^_^
Yes; that is what I meant. He goes either QRQEQ or QRQWQ (though the latter is much more common).
1. Yep he almost exclusively goes QRQWQ against QoP.
2. Yeah if you open Exort and start losing trades it's usually beneficial to go Q after a point in invoke.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
I think the only time you should ever go QRQEQ is if you REALLY want to go exort yet cannot handle the harass if you go E first. You forgo the massive extra last hit damage and sunstrike to go for more regen and stronger cold snap, becoming much more defensive than offensive. I would argue that if you are forced into 3Q's first before anything else then you should be going QW anyway just to get ghost walk and tornado.
But I suppose it's a preference thing at this point.
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i think i keep waiting too long after i eul, they have a chance to move away from the spot right after the land, and dodge my shits , need more practice with this.
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you could alternatively place the sunstrike a little in the anticipated direction of your deafening blast/where they will run (usually the same direction) overlapping a tiny bit with the Eul's. That's helpful for me sometimes when I'm in a rush and I have blast + meteor invoked instead of meteor + sunstrike.
e: and in this case it's basically: drop meteor, invoke, then anticipate the sunstrike slightly, and then the deafening blast
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EPT
