[Hero] Invoker - Page 2

On September 20 2012 15:28 TheYango wrote:

Phase->straight Force is very unforgiving on positioning and mana management. It might be the "better" build for competitive games, but Janggo/Eul's are totally fine for pub games, given how they let you play a little more relaxed (for example, Yao is basically constantly ferrying himself clarities with Phase->straight Force--it's probably *better* to not have to commit to an item like Eul's for regen, but its less tiresome to just buy Eul's in pubs because sending clarities back and forth is a pain in the ass).

Also, it's completely pointless to discuss how much Quas you get early game in a vacuum. It's 100% dependent on how much you need for your laning. In easier mid matchups against weaker opponents, you can get away with as little as 1 Quas early. Typically, you see 2-3 and it depends on who you're against how much you need--2 for easier matchups, and 3 for harder ones (IIRC Yao got 3 against QoP, for example).


Guess Yao is playing Invoker wrong then for getting 3rd rank Q in hard matchups.

It's situational like you said--it's not a cookie-cutter build that determines how much Quas you need earlier.

On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote:
drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep

and duck, the super standard build is qrqwwwrw (the increase in regen allows you to win trades with almost all heros and if you start with only a set of tangoes you will most likely like the two points of quas by lvl 3).

and the forge spirit rush into max wex seems like a bad idea because it delays wex until it is more useless while not utilizing the advantages of exort (i.e. max exort sun strike, meteor, raw damage, mana pool, etc). It is also a reverse build of qw.

Also, OP your QE builds are terrible. The true forge spirits build is ereqewerqqq (allowing for earlier ghost walks, nados tho rare, meteor, deafening blast, and access to every spell) and then maxing exort before getting the third level of invoke is how the build is. Midas is also very good on this build. QE Invoker is a carry Invoker so the advantage in farm and exp it gives are very useful in combination with the attack speed it gives and phase boots make up somewhat for the lack of mobility in comparison to wex invokers' map-hack move speed. And with wex at lvl 6 you can avoid ganks and play much riskier while also having access to chaos meteor; you can also gank fairly well.

OP why do you say for disadvantages for QE: 'fewer teamfight spells' when you list 4 spells whereas QW invoker only has 3? Is this just an oversight?

This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.

On September 20 2012 15:35 DucK- wrote:


Yes it's flexible. But if OP is suggesting 3Q as the main build, then you know something is wrong. 3Q is indeed for a very hard lane, but very very seldom would you ever need it.

On September 20 2012 15:41 TheYango wrote:
It's sort of less clear-cut when you need the 3rd point Quas in pub games. In pro games, high level Invokers know the level of ability of their opponents, so the decision to get 3Q is more or less dictated by matchup. In pub games, you could get a "bad" matchup, but against an opponent that's way worse than you--meaning you could still get away with 2Q even though you'd see 3 for that matchup in a pro game.

On September 20 2012 15:22 DucK- wrote:


QRWWWQR is the ideal build. You have Ghost Walk at level 3. But QW Invoker is very flexible, in that you can get the 2nd Q any time from level 3 to 6. I have no issues on when you get the 2nd Q. But if you're getting the 3rd Q so early, then you are playing QW Invoker wrongly.

The standard QE Build is what you suggested. Sometimes you can get away without an early Wex, and you go EREQE(ER)QQQWR. Wex opens up for Sunstrike -> Meteor -> Blast solo kills (used alot by iceiceice) though.

On September 20 2012 15:38 Firebolt145 wrote:

The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:

You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.

I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).

Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.

Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.

On September 21 2012 01:59 wcLLg wrote:


http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367
Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6.

Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part.

Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks.

The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time.

On September 21 2012 02:34 tofucake wrote:
Do you have any plans to add this to Liquipedia? If not, you do now.

Thank you for your contributions to Liquipedia.

Have a nice day

On September 21 2012 02:30 Firebolt145 wrote:

You watch one game and you conclude that an early point in Wex is important. I screwed up against the Storm Spirit, I was far too aggressive against his DD rune. Doctor Chopper is also a pretty good Storm player and he immediately took advantage of my bad positioning and killed me. Feel free to watch the many other games where I don't die this early.

Drums or exort Invoker in progames? Have you not been watching any games with Dendi or Pajkatt playing Invoker?

I stand by my 'fewer teamfight spells' because you should NOT be using meteor or tornado in early teamfights. Your Invoke has a 22, 17 and 12 second cooldown before level 17 or Aghanims, and if you're choosing to spend that cooldown on a small Tornado or Chaos Meteor with 1 in Wex instead of a Forge Spirit, Cold Snap, Ice wall or Sunstrike, you're making the wrong choice. Ghost walk is the only Wex spell that you should be using before you have at least 2+ points in Wex.

Thank you for your feedback.

On September 21 2012 03:24 wcLLg wrote:


Here is what you got to do bud: go to the international tab in dota 2 and find a game with a drums invoker...it was rare. I haven't looked very hard but only Jeyo went drums. Therefore it is not core. And if you think meteor is not a good spell with only 1 lvl of wex you clearly don't know how to use it. Good luck in low priority or where ever you happen to play.

What I say stands. If you had gotten one level of wex at 6 you would have lived. I only needed to watch one game to see the gaping flaw in your fail build which gets forge spirits at lvl 10 instead of 11.

And you are mistaken again. I said there are applications where nado is useful even at one level of wex. I almost never use nado except to set up meteor or in the late game. It debuffs runes among other things (and this is not in your guide?) and can disable tps along with cold snap and deafening blast. Would you like to see a replay where Ferrari_430 uses this build to great effectiveness? He is the inventor of the QW Invoker after all. I think he knows how to play the hero.

And I don't know if you were aware of how hard the Chinese dominated the International, but they did. And they don't go drums on invoker anymore. If it is still 'core' it's because you still belong to the EU/NA meta which is still behind the Chinese meta like it always has been and always will be.