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I think Midas is for snowballing games when you get a great start, as in phase/treads + midas by 8-9 minutes. It really lets you be a lot more active fighting around the map, and still have a big item or two (hex, scepter, deso, whatever you like) by the late game.
An invoker without a midas who doesn't farm a lot or keep up on levels really loses a lot of oomph as the game drags on and the BKBs come out.
edit: well these thoughts are on QE invoker, who doesn't badly need to kill everybody just because his pushing is great. QW invoker is different, and imo should probably be played as a more aggressive midding ganker who tries to force early fights with tornado, and win early clashes with emp. A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there.
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On February 11 2014 20:58 beef42 wrote:
A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there.
I think getting an early positioning item on QW Invoker is a huge mistake. He needs items that helps him solo-kill, getting an early Orchid and then adapting a playstyle similar to Clinkz is the way to go in most games.
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Well that's an entirely different thing. I think of and play QW invoker as an initiator, chaser, ganker and general team-oriented kind of guy. Not a solo killer.
I never tried playing like that, perhaps I should.
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I really feel like if you're trying to solokill, QW voker is not your man.
I guess with the new ghost walk it might be okay if it turns out that a poor-man's-clinkz is what your team really needs, but I can't ever imagine picking voker with the intention to do that.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
My first reaction was 'why are you trying to make invoker do something he's not designed to do' but then I started wondering, what if you ran around in ghostwalk and initiated with alacrity + coldsnap + orchids? Hmm.
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I still don't think you'd get the solokill with cold snap on anything except a support, and then you'd just have to chase them till your next invoke came up. With wex MS that wouldn't be a problem if their team was elsewhere, but it still seems a far cry from an actual clinkz. You're also stuck in their jungle without ghost walk afterwards.
I've been wrong a million times before, though, so idk.
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So you're going to be Clinkz, except instead of Skeleton Walk, you're going to spend 125 mana more on Ghost Walk which has almost double the cooldown, telegraphs a "DUST HERE" sign, and makes you slower the first few levels?
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I got the GW+Orchid build from Iceiceice and Chains, it has worked well both for them and me. Generally you use Cold Snap + EMP rather than Alacrity, I'm pretty sure it does more damage over the 5 seconds you have them silenced. If the enemy group up and 5-man, fine, QW Invoker is really good at that even you're sitting on an Orchid. If possible, invoke Cold Snap before Ghost Walk so you can use it a second time to get out of there after getting the kill.
On February 11 2014 22:41 hariooo wrote:
So you're going to be Clinkz, except instead of Skeleton Walk, you're going to spend 125 mana more on Ghost Walk which has almost double the cooldown, telegraphs a "DUST HERE" sign, and makes you slower the first few levels?
Mana is not an issue for an intelligence hero with an Orchid with almost infinite duration on the invis. The slow is only visible if you walk within 400 range of the enemy, which is easy to avoid.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
While pros can do it simply because they're so much better than everyone else, I question why the average Joe won't just pick clinkz if he wants to do that sort of thing.
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On February 11 2014 19:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 12:44 Fencar wrote:On February 11 2014 10:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker. Awesome, thank you! Although, one time I faced a TA who relentlessly autoattacked the creepwaves, pushing the lane a fair bit. How should I respond to this? TA can indeed push the wave quickly by splashing it down but in order to do so she has to walk into melee range of the wave. By positioning yourself aggressively and dropping a few spells you should be able to deny her the ability to attack creeps at the cost of some HP/Mana for both of you, however, if you bottle a rune because of this it is not a big deal. As a QE Invoker (which is what I mostly play, haven't faced a TA as QW yet) I'd have Spirits summoned and drop an Ice Wall as soon as she tried to trade hits with me and then kite along the wall. Low level Ice Walls don't slow that much so she can get away from it pretty easily if you kite away from the wall instead of along it. If she Meld hides or keep going at you you can drop a Cold Snap and kill her if you have detection (it is worth buying your own sentries after boots vs TA). If she runs away you can attack the wave while she can't. What is the order of invokation here? Do I invoke Ice Wall initially, then Forged Spirits, then either Sunstrike (for striking another lane) or Cold Snap (if I get into a fight with TA)?
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What heroes/situations other than Riki force you to go Force Staff on QW Invoker? I feel that it's a serious waste of money most of the times. All your spells have huge range, Phase+Wex MS allow you to outrun like 90% of the hero pool and there is always Ghost Walk for emergency situations.
Almost every other investment seems to suit my needs better. Ultimate Orb into Void Stone into Sheepstick gives better stats, mana regen, more dmg and finally the best disable in the game. Oblivion Staff into Orchid gives sick autoattack stats, mana regen and very effective active (however not good vs hard carries).
When you're short on money even Eul's seems like a better choice than Force most of the time - you can actually dodge stuff with it, purge slows to get back to your high ms, allows you to save Tornado when picking off solo heroes so you can do combos like cyclone-emp-alacrity-cold snap; this is A LOT of utility.
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For me a positioning item (and ever since the force nerf I favour blink) is mostly about gaining position to hit more dudes with spells. Blink into ice wall is probably one of the most unfair ganks in the game. Also tornado and deafening blast benefits a lot from a blink because it lets you hit multiple people easier, much like a Lion going for a blink.
This is in addition to all the usual effects a blink gives. Ability to avoid things, chasing, escaping, etc
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On February 11 2014 22:09 Firebolt145 wrote:
My first reaction was 'why are you trying to make invoker do something he's not designed to do' but then I started wondering, what if you ran around in ghostwalk and initiated with alacrity + coldsnap + orchids? Hmm.
Just go Lothars+Cold Snap+Alacrity and snipe kids to death with invis. Ghost Walk is for escaping.
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On February 15 2014 13:14 superstartran wrote:
Ghost Walk is for escaping.
No it's not. After the recent patch it's good for moving across big distances, cutting off escape routes, initiating on rats with Cold Snap/Orchid/Hex, even the slow is decent. The only restrictive thing about it atm is the mana cost, but you can still use it in base for free, and it will be off cd the moment you get back to the action.
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On February 15 2014 19:30 robaq wrote:No it's not. After the recent patch it's good for moving across big distances, cutting off escape routes, initiating on rats with Cold Snap/Orchid/Hex, even the slow is decent. The only restrictive thing about it atm is the mana cost, but you can still use it in base for free, and it will be off cd the moment you get back to the action.
If you're going to go Cold/Snap/Alacrity, you should use Ghost Walk for escaping and Lothars/Shadowblade for initiating. That's how it's always been. The second a guy gets slowed, he knows Invoker is there. This is all big trolls type of builds, but if you're playing that style of Invoker, it's pretty much you go Sblade for the extra damage, aspd, and initiation with the ability to still escape.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PKzRFrk.jpg)
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 11 2014 21:33 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:58 beef42 wrote:
A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there. I think getting an early positioning item on QW Invoker is a huge mistake. He needs items that helps him solo-kill, getting an early Orchid and then adapting a playstyle similar to Clinkz is the way to go in most games.
You sure got vindicated, bro. At the time of posting Power Rangers has just humiliated Na'Vi using a standing-in Scandal on QW orchid invoker.
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On February 27 2014 05:56 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 21:33 ZerG~LegenD wrote:On February 11 2014 20:58 beef42 wrote:
A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there. I think getting an early positioning item on QW Invoker is a huge mistake. He needs items that helps him solo-kill, getting an early Orchid and then adapting a playstyle similar to Clinkz is the way to go in most games. You sure got vindicated, bro. At the time of posting Power Rangers has just humiliated Na'Vi using a standing-in Scandal on QW orchid invoker.
"Yo liquid won this game where chen got an MKB that shit must be legit"
When the score at some point is LITERALLY 22:3 (or more appropriately 3:22 huehuehue) the item choices of both sides must be taken with a grain of salt.
Orchid certainly does things on invoker but it actually synergizes MUCH better with Q/E invoker which has higher mana costs and less overall disable in favour of more dmg (both right-click and spells). Plus solo kills are really really not something Q/W invoker is too concerned about.
Not that positioning items are all that crucial on Q/W invoker either though considering how fast he moves especially with phase.
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I think taking down a vanguard slardar solo but with an AA ulti is nothing to sneeze at.
edit: Just saying. He's fast, he can initiate, he can teamfight, he can ghost walk (run) around and scope out kills like a Gondar, and he can actually solo kill too. What's not to like?
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On February 27 2014 06:06 beef42 wrote:
I think taking down a vanguard slardar solo but with an AA ulti is nothing to sneeze at.
I think that invoker's WC3 model had cooler voice lines.
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EPT
