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On February 06 2014 00:45 robaq wrote:
Imho Quas regen is very good. It scales real sick on the early levels (3/6/9/12, more is overkill) so at level 4 Quas you reach tranquil boots rate of regen, but in most cases 2 or 3 is the sweet spot. I love going QW these days mostly because i can rush phase boots, cold snap people almost every single time if they draw aggro, and not give a shit about getting hit by creeps myself.
What you described works just as well (actually much better) in a dual-forge-spirits QE build #justsaying
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Well maybe I'm dumb, but i thought 99% players prefered leveling Exort, buying more regen to compensate but delaying phase boots.
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your first 7 points as QE are almost always
3 exort
2 quas
2 invoke
so that hits your "sweet spot" for regen.
The only time people delay phase is for midas.
When going dual-forge build (the good QE build last patch, more debatable now) you hit 4/0/4/2 at level 10 or that with 1 wex at level 11 so you have the regen down no problem.
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Actually just one point in invoke
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Hi, new Invoker here. If I'm going QE or WE, when should I build a midas? Do you just make it first? Or brown boots then midas? Or what? Thanks.
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On February 07 2014 11:09 Weird wrote:
Hi, new Invoker here. If I'm going QE or WE, when should I build a midas? Do you just make it first? Or brown boots then midas? Or what? Thanks.
A typical quas exort greedy item build (at least this is what I do) is null talisman tangoes at the start - > hand of midas. It gives you base damage and enough regen before leveling up quas.
For quas wex invoker, you usually dont get midas because you're more of a midgame teamfight hero, but you would probably want midas after phase boots or at a minimum blades of attack because you need the base damage from phase boots to last hit adequately.
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Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane?
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On February 07 2014 14:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane?
i have seen this a couple of times in pro games, can't be that awful.
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On February 07 2014 14:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane?
It was more valid when first level of invoke only gave one spell. The idea is that you don't really have mana problems so the int from a null is somewhat wasted, and you need the damage to help last hit without exort. Typically you just go straight for phase boots, skipping bottle with this build iirc.
Nowadays, with two spells off the bat (and three with an invoke on cd), the extra stats/bottle is helpful to tornado into emp and coldsnap.
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On February 07 2014 18:42 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 14:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane? i have seen this a couple of times in pro games, can't be that awful.
its called the ferrari build, named after the not-so-bad invoker player *cough*
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On February 07 2014 19:15 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 14:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane? It was more valid when first level of invoke only gave one spell. The idea is that you don't really have mana problems so the int from a null is somewhat wasted, and you need the damage to help last hit without exort. Typically you just go straight for phase boots, skipping bottle with this build iirc. Nowadays, with two spells off the bat (and three with an invoke on cd), the extra stats/bottle is helpful to tornado into emp and coldsnap.
In what situation should Invoker get a Bottle?
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I'd get bottle when facing a mana burn hero. Otherwise, if you nail EMPs perfectly, you will have zero mana problems. I'm not so good at it so i usually get two nulls and ferry an occasional clarity.
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Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker.
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On February 11 2014 10:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker.
Awesome, thank you!
Although, one time I faced a TA who relentlessly autoattacked the creepwaves, pushing the lane a fair bit. How should I respond to this?
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I'm an awful voker, but I really don't see why bottle is so quickly rejected by people, particularly on QW voker.
He can use bottle charges to spam cold snap in lane, and he ganks well with runes. His lack of lane control is an obvious issue, but if he's against someone who also has poor lane control - and there are a lot of those, including serious contenders like sky - that's not the end of the world. I wouldn't get it every game, and especially not against something with really good rune control, but it's not on the "awful" list by any stretch.
The one I'm having more trouble with is midas on QW voker. Do you want it? Is it still worth getting after phase boots? I don't feel like I can skip them without exort.
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On February 11 2014 15:52 Belisarius wrote:
I'm an awful voker, but I really don't see why bottle is so quickly rejected by people, particularly on QW voker.
He can use bottle charges to spam cold snap in lane, and he ganks well with runes. His lack of lane control is an obvious issue, but if he's against someone who also has poor lane control - and there are a lot of those, including serious contenders like sky - that's not the end of the world. I wouldn't get it every game, and especially not against something with really good rune control, but it's not on the "awful" list by any stretch.
The one I'm having more trouble with is midas on QW voker. Do you want it? Is it still worth getting after phase boots? I don't feel like I can skip them without exort.
In fact, I watched Liquid'TC stream yesterday, he played QW invoker and did indeed go for bottle, against a puck. I think it can be good if you really get full use of your spells, TC was constantly trying to harass with cold snap, even started using EMPs often early on. It's just quite a big investment for a hero who really doesn't need to rely on spells... but if you can make those spells worth the investment, go for it.
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On February 06 2014 02:24 Sn0_Man wrote:
your first 7 points as QE are almost always
3 exort
2 quas
2 invoke
so that hits your "sweet spot" for regen.
The only time people delay phase is for midas.
When going dual-forge build (the good QE build last patch, more debatable now) you hit 4/0/4/2 at level 10 or that with 1 wex at level 11 so you have the regen down no problem.
The second point in invoke is bad, it barely reduces the CD. The 3rd point becomes interesting however it requires level 12 and heroes stay level 11 for ages so you'll often see pros go for invoke at level 12 and 13. Sometimes they even skip invoke level 2 until exort is maxed, but you have to be confident in your sunstrikes skill and it requires a midas.
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On February 11 2014 12:44 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 10:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker. Awesome, thank you! Although, one time I faced a TA who relentlessly autoattacked the creepwaves, pushing the lane a fair bit. How should I respond to this?
TA can indeed push the wave quickly by splashing it down but in order to do so she has to walk into melee range of the wave. By positioning yourself aggressively and dropping a few spells you should be able to deny her the ability to attack creeps at the cost of some HP/Mana for both of you, however, if you bottle a rune because of this it is not a big deal.
As a QE Invoker (which is what I mostly play, haven't faced a TA as QW yet) I'd have Spirits summoned and drop an Ice Wall as soon as she tried to trade hits with me and then kite along the wall. Low level Ice Walls don't slow that much so she can get away from it pretty easily if you kite away from the wall instead of along it. If she Meld hides or keep going at you you can drop a Cold Snap and kill her if you have detection (it is worth buying your own sentries after boots vs TA). If she runs away you can attack the wave while she can't.
On February 11 2014 15:52 Belisarius wrote:
The one I'm having more trouble with is midas on QW voker. Do you want it? Is it still worth getting after phase boots? I don't feel like I can skip them without exort.
While the +damage is nice in general, the major benefit of Phase Boots is what they do for you in lane, and often you don't need them simply because the enemy can't go for last hits without taking major damage. This is normally the case against melee heroes like Pudge but could also happen in other lanes if your supports rotate in and successfully gank the enemy or if they mess up and you get a solo kill. The big downside of starting with Blades of Attack is that you can't be flexible in this. However, you can still get Midas after Phase Boots if you're doing great. Maybe you got first blood or you're 2-0 or something like that.
Still, I am not convinced that you ever want a Midas on a mid Invoker. My wr% went through the roof when I stopped getting it on my QE Invoker.
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EPT
