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Apparently soul catcher is not removed by Duel, so that's a valid pairing. Another one would be Bane-- he can sleep them prior to Blink and then Enfeeble them so their attacks don't hurt Legion (but do proc her passive).
Wisp, Ogre, and Venge all have ways of helping Legion catch her target and ways to buff her combat abilities during the Duel.
Sven would be the manliest support duo and has a couple ways to help her get to her target as well as improved armour during the Duel.
A Silencer leveling Curse would be able to inflict a lot of damage without inhibiting their ability to hit Legion (thus procing her passive) and would also gain bonus damage from every Duel! Note that Last Word is useable too because the disarm is muted no matter when it comes into effect (but doesn't do as much damage per level as Curse).
While not as reliable, an Enchantress can help Legion catch them prior to Blink with her slow, as well as provide buffs via jungle creeps: such as +15 attack speed from Centaur, 30% bonus damage from Alpha Wolf, or the 12% movement speed buff from Kobold Task Master. Other creep effects aren't useful: the Wildkin Tornado, Ghost orb, Hellbear Smasher clap, and Ogre Priest ice armour all slow attack speed, which removes chances for Legion's passive to proc.
Treant Protector can cloak Legion, enabling her to initiate with surprise prior to Blink, or his Leech Seed can slow them, and his Living Armour is a license to go crazy.
Visage's Grave Chill can help Legion catch her target (hopefully the attack speed slow runs out soon), and Soul Assumption can help finish a target as his charges accumulate.
Ancient App goes well with every hero in the game, and Legion is no exception. Chilling Touch procs on her passive. Enough said.
While not usually run as a support, Bloodseeker could definitely help Legion catch and duel her targets.
Lycan would be a hillarious ally to Legion: able to buff her damage from anywhere on the map.
Venomancer can slow targets, letting Legion catch them, and dealing good damage during the Duel without reducing attack speed.
Witch Doctor's stun is unreliable but could possibly help Legion catch someone-- Duel then setting up an easy Maledict.
Not a support, but Invoker can help Legion catch her target with either Cold Snap or Ice Wall, then buff her with Alacrity, then provide a lot of damage with an easily landed Meteor during Duel.
Undying can't reliably set up Duel, but all of his skills can help Legion win the Duel, which most notably sets up an easy Tomb Stone.
Pugna's Decrepify can set up Duel, which removes the ghost debuff. He can then dissuade the enemy from casting things on Legion during the Duel with Nether Ward. If he has his ult he can provide a lot of damage during the Duel while the target can't flee, if unhindered.
CM has a couple ways to set up the Duel, and if she has ult can provide a lot of damage during the Duel if unhindered.
A Centaur with ult can easily set up Duel from anywhere on map, and if he's present his Double Edge can help nuke the target down.
Not usually a support, but Pudge can Hook targets to him for Legion to Duel, and will also gain bonus damage when Legion wins.
edit: Just noticed the thread title is missing an 's', can a mod fix?
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I played a couple games with Legion Commander today. Each time I jungled with a Stout Shield and Quelling Blade. The one thing I'm sure about is that you absolutely need a Blink Dagger to close the gap. Regarding boots, I prefer Power Treads' attack speed and hp over Phase Boots' damage and movement speed, but both boots are fine. Beyond boots and Blink Dagger, I'm really not sure. Items I tried out include Armlet of Mordiggian, Skull Basher, Blade Mail, Heart of Torrasque, Assault Cuirass and Heaven's Halberd. All of them performed decently but none were amazing, so I'm at a loss which items to get after the Blink Dagger, and in what order. Other (obvious) observations I made: Beside its main purpose, Duel is also useful as a damn long disable, and Press the Attack is actually a decent healing spell.
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Completely agree with that. Just one thing, don't build Skull Basher, it doesn't work in Duel as far as I know, other items are fine. BKB is important so you don't get focused down in Duel with spells, but if they are not disable/spell heavy, you can go for Armlet/Heaven's Halberd/Assault Cuirass/Heart, all works well depending on what do you need.
People are saying that Shadowblade is really good item on her in pubs, I tried it and I don't know, not really fan of that item after the nerf for any hero, and not just her.
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I think treads is a waste-- you get free attack speed by getting hit (tanking creep waves are the source of your strength), so turning that max attack speed into extra phase-damage is a big deal. In general Phase Blink BKB/Blademail (depending on what their team has) AC Heart is the way to go.
Mjolnir is decent for attack speed if someone else on the team is making an AC, though you usually still need a source of armour. If you can't make AC I think Shiva's could actually be decent (though things that decrease the enemy's attack speed are not usually good for Legion since she likes being hit, but as long as you have enough other things hitting you while you Duel it should be ok).
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On December 23 2013 13:04 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think treads is a waste-- you get free attack speed by getting hit (tanking creep waves are the source of your strength), so turning that max attack speed into extra phase-damage is a big deal. In general Phase Blink BKB/Blademail (depending on what their team has) AC Heart is the way to go.
Mjolnir is decent for attack speed if someone else on the team is making an AC, though you usually still need a source of armour. If you can't make AC I think Shiva's could actually be decent (though things that decrease the enemy's attack speed are not usually good for Legion since she likes being hit, but as long as you have enough other things hitting you while you Duel it should be ok).
Why do you dismiss treads as an option while considering attack speed options in the very next paragraph? Treads provide a lot of attack speed for their cost. Sure, the bonus damage from phase is good, but it's not like it's distinctly better than treads in every scenario.
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From my experience, Legion has a hard time staying on people after Duels, so you really need the Phase mobility.
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On December 23 2013 16:45 GtC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 13:04 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think treads is a waste-- you get free attack speed by getting hit (tanking creep waves are the source of your strength), so turning that max attack speed into extra phase-damage is a big deal. In general Phase Blink BKB/Blademail (depending on what their team has) AC Heart is the way to go.
Mjolnir is decent for attack speed if someone else on the team is making an AC, though you usually still need a source of armour. If you can't make AC I think Shiva's could actually be decent (though things that decrease the enemy's attack speed are not usually good for Legion since she likes being hit, but as long as you have enough other things hitting you while you Duel it should be ok). Why do you dismiss treads as an option while considering attack speed options in the very next paragraph? Treads provide a lot of attack speed for their cost. Sure, the bonus damage from phase is good, but it's not like it's distinctly better than treads in every scenario.
Because my paragraph deals with different scenarios over the course of the game. Early game is all about maximizing your first few Duels so you start to snowball. Midgame is about augmenting your advantage by building durability and attack speed to get the most out of your bonus damage. Lategame is where you cement your lead by making yourself durable in full teamfights. Phase Blink lets you kill stuff early. BKB AC make you more durable to magic and physical damage. Heart lets you fight everything, longer. Because of the way the hero works you could probably in many scenarios get away with only building damage and counting on passive procs for dps and sustainability, but that would be cheesing. If you started with treads your first few Duel ganks probably wouldn't be as strong unless your team was really well-suited for rotating every 50s to gank with you and had the advantage to get the map control to freely do that. The more your team commits to help you win duels the more space they give the other team to get ahead through other means.
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Jungle into phaseboots and magic stick. 4/1/2/1 skill build. Blink is absolute core on her. After that bkb and AC/Daed/Deso.
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On December 24 2013 20:45 Emnjay808 wrote:
Jungle into phaseboots and magic stick. 4/1/2/1 skill build. Blink is absolute core on her. After that bkb and AC/Daed/Deso.
I tried Jungling with first spell, and I found 0-2-3-0 a lot better just because you can kill Ancients on level 5 with Treads/Phase and nothing else, and you got a lot more exp and gold from them.
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Anyone ever consider getting linkens and bkb on her? To me it seems her limiting factor is tankiness and spell susceptibility. Her late game damage is pretty strong as it is (unless your duel ganks have all failed) and while additional damage isn't necessarily a bad thing, it does not seem to be the most efficient.
Was thinking something like phase/treads -> blink -> bkb/linken -> linken/bkb -> ac/heart
grabbing situational items as needed of course
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On December 25 2013 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 20:45 Emnjay808 wrote:
Jungle into phaseboots and magic stick. 4/1/2/1 skill build. Blink is absolute core on her. After that bkb and AC/Daed/Deso. I tried Jungling with first spell, and I found 0-2-3-0 a lot better just because you can kill Ancients on level 5 with Treads/Phase and nothing else, and you got a lot more exp and gold from them.
Err... skill build for jungling as follows: 0/0/1/0, 0/1/1/0, 0/1/2/0, 1/1/2/0, 2/1/2/0... 4/1/2/1.
You can jungle with lvl 2 E good enough with a stout/quelling/phaseboots. Double stack all hardcamps and focus w/e Centaur or Wildkin to remove their creep buff for mitigation. Maxing Overwhelming Odds asap is so important. Its a 200+X aoe nuke that gifts you haste, means you're instantly a threat if they try to push a tower with a big creep wave. Once you get blink you should just spam overwhelming odds and looking for blink+duel opportunities.
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You can't afford to spam her nuke-- you have to have 260 mana at all times to buff -> blink -> ult. There's no doubt that her nuke is situationally strong, but most of the time there won't be an enemy sitting in the creep wave for you to nuke, and you can clear creep waves pretty quickly as is by tanking them and procing passive. Furthermore, if they were inside a big creep wave and you nuked them you might actually prevent yourself from having the dps to kill them during the Duel duration by having eliminated the creeps-- and tanking creeps makes you proc your passive which is the bulk of your dps.
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When you have a fresh blink, ur E is not the one that will kill ur Duel target. With magic stick against a 5 man push, spamming Overwhelming Odds is more than doable. I guess I should clarify what I mean by spam: when the wave is especially huge or when u can catch 3+ guys in a radius to chunk their health. Not spamming like Batrider tar.
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I see a lot of ppl been focusing on fresh Blink VS SB + Jungling VS safe laning, but without realizing her actual role
in game, there are few points I need to clarify as only a handful of players here ACTUALLY know what she can do/can't
do:
1. OO is a pretty effective lane/rune control spell, even against ranged mid such as OD/viper, some complained its
hard to land the spell on ranged heroes, but personally I think the range heroes have to worry more being nuked if
they try to attack me(kiting). Its up how well you kite the ranged mid. Not to mentioned that its spammable with
merely 100 mana cost with Soul Ring + stout shield combo(she doesn't even need bottle)
2. Most ppl here claimed MoC its better than PtA. In jungling yea it might,
but this is how MoC works:
- MoC have 1.2 sec cd and 0.5 sec life steal if activated(1-2 hit if normal items, 3 hit extra with good ASPD)
- MoC is only activated during LC is attacking(valid actual attack animation from beginning till ending)
- MoC heal is 80% at level 4 (Its 80% every hit X 3 extra hit with better ASPD = 240% of damage healed)
- Based on how it works, you can actually abuse its mechanism to have numerous MoC procs when NC(align your attack animation with NC attack timing)
- THUS, faster attack speed is absolutely more important than damage item for proc'ing MoC
On the other hand, this is how PtA works:
- 300 hp and 120 ASPD at lvl 4(well no one will max it first anyway)
- Debuff the ally hero or self (sort of semi aphotic but its better)
- This skill is mostly use before and after duel, either to better damage output, or recover super fast after tanking
a lot of damage(with a certain item which I will mention it later), and OCCASIONALLY, saving teammates' ass.
- Its audio sound serves as a signal to other dps carry/core that, they may actually PRESS the ATTACK without
retreating despite low hp. 120 ASPD boost on dpser(with lifesteal items) is no kidding.
- Most important is, its UNDISPELLABLE from regular hero attacks.
- PtA got 2 major downsides which is: long cast animation sux, and long cooldown to be a healing spell.
- MoC always max last with lvl 1 hanging before lvl 6, because it needs the ASPD and HP to procs, NOT DAMAGE items.
3. Lastly the ultimate, Duel, this is one make LC damage snowballs a lot similar like Pudge with Flesh Heap, this is
where it makes a GOOD LC player or a BAD one.
Let me elaborate further on what DUEL CAN'T DO, despite everyone is going for the Blink/SB duel:
- Most bad LC play, treated DUEL as batrider's LASSO, which is blink Duel, thats suicide(Batrider can force
staff/Napalm/Firefly/Dagon/whatever shit, LC can't)
- Most bad LC duelling with a fresh Dagger/SB, most likely will ended up dead(whether they WIN the duel or not), DUE
to no HP items to sustain the tanking, unless opposite team is pretty weak. 8 out 10 fresh blink/SB LC play ended up
lose this way(I watch 10+ LC games daily) after gaining 5-6 duel kills charge and stop there.
- Its not that Blink duel is very BAD, its just most ppl using it a VERY WRONG way, BLINK duel is only viable after at
least 7-8 duel stacks(14X7=98 damage gained), to finish off supports/knocking hp down fast enough to further snowballing, LC's first 5-7 duel stacks is way easier to gain thru GANK kills.
What DUEL can DO(first 5-7 stacks):
- Tons of you guys might be asking since I literally trashed the groups which support a fresh SB/blink, by challenging
me how should I snowball LC's damage thru duel?
- My point: Duel's 5 sec disable always come first, the damage stacks come next(its a plus only without sacrificing yourself)
- DO NOT COMPARE IT WITH FLAMING LASSO, instead it behaves like PUDGE'S DISMEMBER without channeling OR AXE's CULLING BLADE without risking KSing teammates(whoever kills, you still gain the stacks)
- Generally there is 2 situation you can really apply the duel:
(1st) target the red hp heroes when ganking, means you duel against a hero which is a guaranteed kills(left 1 more nukes to finish off), instantly get the stacks and retreat.
(2nd) Target the most annoying caster fast with OO movement speed bonus and tank the damage without hoping to WIN the duel, NOR dying from the duel
- Compare LC to Pudge dismember/Axe Culling/Other similar spell behaviour:
Does dismember need SB/blink? Nope. Thus Duel = Dismember
Does dismember always used for initiate? Nope. Thus Duel = Dismember
Does dismember required Pudge and Victim hold in place for seconds? Yes. Thus Duel = Dismember
Does Duel interruptible like Dismember? Nope, thus Duel WIN dismember at this point.
Does Duel require your own kills to stack like Culling blade? Nope, Duel wins Culling blade without own kills and does
not hinder other teammates snowballing.
Does Duel stacks last only temporarily like Culling Blade/Slark's essence shift? Nope, Duel wins again.
Does Duel stacks counterable by BKB such as OD/Silencer stacks? Nope, Duel wins again.
Q: Then without SB/Blink, how you gonna build LC?
- My point: Tanking ability + Chasing power + life steal
- My items: Soul ring + stout shield ==> Treads + Drum(with a cloak and orb of venom if needed) ==> SNY + Helm of D
==> satanic/Mjolnir
Q: Why not BKB as tanking item? since it makes LC unstoppable on duelling
- LC duel is either gain the stacks without risk, or attracting opposite team attention to cover own teammates, BKB is
defeating the purpose since opposite nukers/caster will focus on your teammates, as you will be no longer a threat for
5 secs and a so-so dpser after duel, provided IF they are decent team.
-Furthermore, BKB is not really a cost effective items for any of LC skills. BKB is only needed at late game for heavy
disable/uninterruptible further stacks with already high damage gain.
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Blink is primarily used for opportunity duels. You dont gung ho like batrider lasso unless you're incredibly decked out or know your team can follow up properly.
Also, idk how anyone can dismiss BKB as a cost effective item for LC. Especially when you try to justify SnY and Drums over it.
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On December 26 2013 19:11 Emnjay808 wrote:
Blink is primarily used for opportunity duels. You dont gung ho like batrider lasso unless you're incredibly decked out or know your team can follow up properly.
Also, idk how anyone can dismiss BKB as a cost effective item for LC. Especially when you try to justify SnY and Drums over it.
If blink is for opportunity duel, its not really wise to rush a fresh blink then. There are other better items for LC to contribute in teamfights and not dying in duels.
BKB generally divert the attention from LC to other teammates, thats way different from hard carry with BKB, as LC duel with BKB mid game, her damage is just not enough to make any difference on her target.
If I am the enemy team, and I saw LC bkb and duel 1 of my teammates, I rather to protect my teammate or simply nuke the rest. Since wiping the rest is far more easier than right-clicking the LC which procs more MoC.
And mind your reading, I only dismiss BKB as mid game item not being cost-efficient, BKB is good when you have at least 7-8 stacks of duel damage. Even sange + drum + orb of venom is far better than having 10- 7 sec doing nothing at all but so-so dps without at least 7-8 stacks.
Legion commander should focus more on timing of dispel debufff and OO the groups and duel only those less than half hp while capable to withstand punishment + attracting enemy attention during early-mid to mid game. Her stats is not the type which really can cover a blink dagger + bkb before getting any HP + ASPD items.
Midgame LC should worry more about how to survive when she won the duel and after. HP + Lifesteal with good aspd is what LC need since she never having any damage snowballing issues.
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Ive noticed that too. Although there is the 1.2 second cooldown I see a lot more procs when AS is high or maybe i just think its higher because of the chaos.
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On December 26 2013 21:36 reyavalon wrote:
If blink is for opportunity duel, its not really wise to rush a fresh blink then. There are other better items for LC to contribute in teamfights and not dying in duels.
You're too concerned about teamfighting at a stage of the game that is very typically gank-focused.
Blink Dagger can be finished at around 7 minutes. In most pub games, this is well before lanes break, and is still during the phase of the game where ganking directs the flow of the game. The ability to present a much larger gank threat due to Blink is why LC needs the item.
LC's baseline kit is not very good for teamfighting on it's own. She has an unreliable nuke, mediocre burst damage, long cooldowns, and only one disable which you cannot use all that freely in teamfights. Trying to focus on teamfighting from the get-go when it's not her strength is jumping the gun. She NEEDS to be successful with ganks in the early stages of the game before lanes break in order to develop enough to have a good presence in teamfights. It's not worth it to sacrifice your early ganking power the way you are suggesting.
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Would getting an early halberd be optimal?
Like blink/shadowblade first item then halberd and then everything else
You could pop the disarm and go right into a duel even if youre low health they wouldnt be able to attack and you could bait people into giving you duel damage.
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On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do...
It doesn't trigger multiple times, which is something most people misunderstand. MoC gives you a buff for .5 seconds, and it is possible to hit an enemy 2-3 times during this buff duration. MoC can only proc ONCE every 1.2 seconds. But if at level one you proc MoC during LC's frontswing, you will strike twice during the buff. Later in the game with AS you can get a third hit in if you proc during frontswing and will get 2 hits in on all other procs.
Also pro-tip. DO NOT GET HEAVEN"S HALBERD ON LC. Simply becasue you WANT to be attack during the duel, since the MoC procs on being attacked. HH is simply not an effective item on LC especially early in the game. She does much better with other items.
I personally would only get a HH in situations where I am the three role and I have my other core items and a good amount of duel stacks.
Also, to the dude saying blink needs to have 7 duel stacks to be useful, is wrong. Blink duel in early game is extremely strong when used correctly, and you should only max OO first when in the mid lane. Having a 0/2/3/1 build with a blink at the 7 min mark coming out of the jungle will allow you to gank the enemy offlane quite effectively. if you cast PtA before hand you can count on getting at least one MoC proc, and PtA gives you a AS buff and the other heroes in lane should be able to provide the needed damage. its an item all about snowball. And squishy heroes will die in the lvl 1 duel duration from full health if you hvae PtA up and get a couple MoC procs.
OO is simply not needed unless you are in the mid lane
Too each his own, but I believe that soul ring drums with max OO is ineffective where a Blink Armlet is a stronger build. (Unless mid, which you will get a bottle, no need for soul ring and go 4/1/1/1 into drums, blink)
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EPT
