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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/0/0a/Legion_Commander_Large.png) Legion Commander
They came without warning. Within the city walls of Stonehall there came a rumble and a terrible sound, and from blackness unknown came a force of beasts numbering beyond count, wielding flame and foul sorcery, slaying and snatching mothers and sons to dark purpose. Of once-mighty Stonehall's military strength only the Bronze Legion, led by the indomitable Commander Tresdin, was near enough to answer the call of battle. They rode into their city, fighting through bloodstained alleyways and burning markets, cutting their way through the monstrous throng to the source of the sudden invasion: an ethereal rift within the city square, and at its precipice thundered their dreaded champion.
Enwrapped in a corrosive shimmer, the leader of the abyssal horde swung its massive blade, cleaving a legionnaire in two as his flesh began to spoil. Tresdin lifted her blood-stained sword and settled her sights on the beast. It turned, smiling at her through a maze of teeth. Heedless of the battle raging around them, they charged one another.
Deflecting blow after blow, the pair danced their deadly duel as the Bronze Legion met its end around them. Tresdin leapt forward as her foe swung its sword to meet her. The odds turned. The attack smashed into Tresdin suddenly, a brutal thrust from the side, but even as her balance slipped she rallied her strength for another stroke. Blade scraped on blade, beyond the hilt to the gnarled paw below, carving it in two in a fearsome spray of sparks and blood. The vile audience looked on in astonishment as she pressed the attack, driving her blade through her foe's flesh into the stampeding heart within. With a scream that split the clouds above, the beast erupted in a torrent of gore and anguish. The stygian portal wavered, the power sustaining the chasm beyond vanishing as suddenly as it had appeared. The remaining invaders fell quickly to Stonehall steel.
Though victorious, the survivors saw little to celebrate: the city lay in ruins, and survivors were few. Fires continued to spread. Unfurling her banners of war, Tresdin gathered what allies she could. Her anger smoldered as she pledged brutal vengeance upon the forces of the abyss, and damned be any who would dare stand in her way.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Legion_Commander
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Safe lane has more flexibility, but the advantage of jungling is that because you don't need to buy a bunch of basic stuff for laning, you can rush a Blink Dagger naked. You pretty much have to snowball off your first few Duel ganks that way, though.
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She feels to me very much like a different brand of batrider(One that becomes a carry instead of more support later). Safelane can work similiar to how you would safe lane a sandking. Get him his fast blink and levels then let someone else take over the farming. The problem with this is that I don't really see pubs picking the correct heroes to do this and executing it properly. Acting more like a traditional jungle ganker(Batrider) seems the safer and easier option. Once you got the blink you got what you need to start the snowball.
Skill build I'm a bit iffy on but it seems like her first skill is pretty worthless and costs a fair amount of mana which you don't really itemize for. Seems Duel > MoC > PoA is the superior build.
Item wise I'm not too sure myself after blink. AC seems to be the best follow up but honestly it doesn't seem to matter that much. You either start snowballing really hard or you kind of just linger there.
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On December 18 2013 03:25 Numy wrote:
She feels to me very much like a different brand of batrider(One that becomes a carry instead of more support later). Safelane can work similiar to how you would safe lane a sandking. Get him his fast blink and levels then let someone else take over the farming. The problem with this is that I don't really see pubs picking the correct heroes to do this and executing it properly. Acting more like a traditional jungle ganker(Batrider) seems the safer and easier option. Once you got the blink you got what you need to start the snowball.
Skill build I'm a bit iffy on but it seems like her first skill is pretty worthless and costs a fair amount of mana which you don't really itemize for. Seems Duel > MoC > PoA is the superior build.
Item wise I'm not too sure myself after blink. AC seems to be the best follow up but honestly it doesn't seem to matter that much. You either start snowballing really hard or you kind of just linger there.
BKB, then AC.
I really like her jungling, it's pretty safe and the blink duel ganks are hilarious. Is it worthwhile to stack medium camps at earlier levels for more moc procs? Esp if you get unlucky with centaurs or whatever.
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It depends what level you are.
The danger with stacking camps is that if you get Wolves+Centaur, the double aura makes it extremely hard to clear. It's safer to just blow Press the Attack to clear a big creep. Though if you cannot finish a camp by :00, always stack, because you can pretty much always clear the stack without risk as long as you cleared either of the two aura creeps.
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So LC is my fav hero in Dota1 and will be my most played hero in Dota2, seeing how its all I will choose in all pick. (I don't play all pick very often, but when I do, I pick Legion Commander)
So I think she is extremely adaptable in her build and you need to take a look at your team and the other team and where you fit in the lane for what you level and build.
Overwhelming Odds is very strong if you are in the mid lane because of the harass and if you are facing a melee mid (you won't have fun against a ranged mid)
personally, I level press the attack first and get MoC second. I like to take her into the safe lane unless the other heros on my team demand that I go into the jungle.
Items, I will REALLLLYYY caution you in rushing blink dagger. Unlike bat who gets blink and can PULL the enemy into your team to get kill, the LC duel will occur where your enemy is. meaning your team needs to move TOO your enemy, and it also makes it easier for other opponents to come in to help. Also, LC's damage output early is not spectacular and you will need support to get duel kills unless your opponent is really low.
Personally, UNLESS I have a team of friends who will coordinate well with me to give me backup or a high burst damage team who can easily kill a hero that is locked in place, I will not get blink until I go treads armlet blink (I grab urn if I am in safelane).
Always grab safe lane if available. Jungle only if there is a better carry than LC who wants Safelane farm. (meaning no Dazzle you are not going to be farming in safelane........... fucking solo queue)
Also its mandatory that you scream and yell loudly whenever you win a duel. It is important that your team knows exactly how manly you are.
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Regarding mid lane, i found LC to be quite strong even against some ranged heroes because of the heal and high base dmg. I've been able to solo kill Shadow Fiends and QE Invokers at 6 by using lvl3 Overwhelming Odds + Duel. Just remember to get a stout shield.
Also, get Phase Boots instead of Treads if not getting Blink. Otherwise you won't be able to Duel in many situations. +24 dmg is also way better than +30as IF you're able to PtA yourself before ulting.
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On December 18 2013 06:59 robaq wrote:
Regarding mid lane, i found LC to be quite strong even against some ranged heroes because of the heal and high base dmg. I've been able to solo kill Shadow Fiends and QE Invokers at 6 by using lvl3 Overwhelming Odds + Duel. Just remember to get a stout shield.
Also, get Phase Boots instead of Treads if not getting Blink. Otherwise you won't be able to Duel in many situations. +24 dmg is also way better than +30as IF you're able to PtA yourself before ulting.
good point about phase. They give you the move speed and the damage. In theory you could build the LC similar to a racecar TA, but you need the right team behind you to back you up. She's a hero who builds differently depending on the game.
And I must be bad vs ranged mids as LC cause I usually lose the lane (rarely die however, since her regen is quite good)
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Mid LC should be the exact same as as any other Bottle-Crow Melee AoE hero.
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So she is an AMAZING jungler. If you feel a little scared in rushing a blink naked you can always pick up a shadow blade. It is great for initiation and escape. Also the extra attack speed doesn't hurt either. Also DPS items are a MUST! Mjollnir is my choice. Also if you pick up blade mail you can pop that right before a duel and its gg for them (although you will probably sell it for a cuirass later). She is very versatile but I believe an Armlet is a must on her. The extra health during a duel is soooooo OP. But she has huge snowball potential. You just have to get early ganks and kills to snowball. Also a bkb is good since you are a target in team fights.
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What's the go to safe lane farm build on her?
I usually go phase boots, drums, deso which seems to be working out decently but feels like I don't have enough hp sometimes, should I just go armlet bkb?
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Australia4123 Posts
Soul Ring on LC?
In theory it should work for extended jungling right? Keeps you at full mana while PoA keeps you at full HP-ish.
Anyone's seal of approval or is the money spent better elsewhere?
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Armlet / shadowblade core items for me.
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I like going blademail deso mjolinir. They do as much damage to themselves as they do to you, its just absurd for 1v1 dueling.
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On December 18 2013 16:01 739 wrote:
Armlet / shadowblade core items for me.
I think that new Shadowblade is quite a waste on her, a lot of gold for not gaining much except windwalk that has long cooldown now. If you want to go for initiation, Blink dagger is far better, since you have to go into melee range for Duel anyway.
I tried out two builds, Phaseboots -> Drums -> BKB is first. Second is Treads -> Blink -> BKB. Both got potential(with first build you are really mobile even more so than other heroes with that build because of Overwhelming Odds), but I like the second one better. Even with huge movement speed boost I got problems with connecting to the target with Duel.
Overall, Treads -> Blink -> BKB -> Haven's Halberd/Armlet -> AC seems like a great ganking/tank/semi-carry build to me.
On December 18 2013 15:29 ReignSupreme. wrote:
Soul Ring on LC?
In theory it should work for extended jungling right? Keeps you at full mana while PoA keeps you at full HP-ish.
Anyone's seal of approval or is the money spent better elsewhere?
I didn't try her out in Jungle in DotA 2, but in DotA 1 you just had a little problems till level 3 and 4, and then you don't even need the mana for Jungling. So I would say that you don't really need it.
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I played her a few times; safelane start with tangos, stout shield, quelling blade. Go OO first, then one point in PtA, then max OO, MoC and ulti. Constant OO in lane guarentees a lvl 6 kill with just an average laning partner. Not a fan of armlet (cause I can't use it properly), but with that lvl 6 kill and MoC, its another 5 min farm to hyperstone, and mjollnir is a min or 3 after that. Then its roaming time into deso-AC.
Depending on the other team I go bkb before deso, but with both u can even win a duel in teamfights before u get focused.
And EVERYONE focus on the two guys in the duel, frees up ur team to either help u or take out enemy heroes.
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I saw Dendi playing her on his Stream. He maxed Owerwhelming Odds at 7 with one point in Moment of Courage (at 2). Press the Attack was maxed second. The interesting part was that he used this skill build for both mid lane and jungling (tripple connecting pulls on Sentinel side partially using OO to pull, it looked pretty efficient).
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
never played LC in wc3 dota, played first few games today
i really like that you can abuse duel to finish off low hp enemy heroes and permagain damage (without risk of losing them if you are gonna die, like a bloodstone charge or sf souls)
also, many people seem to go jungling with it, is it a decent option to go if you aren't laning? and do you go blink/lothars or skip this straight?
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I wonder how valuable MoC levels are for dueling; level 1 is a no brainer of course. Going from level 1 -> 4 is a 16% -> 22% chance increase in proc rate which is relatively minor. I know the PRNG is going to mess up the math a bit, but if you take the actual % values at face value you're looking at only 6 additional MoC's per 100 attacks. Realistically early heroes, especially int supports, are only going to get like 4-5 attacks off during a level 1 duel which means a maxxed MoC is only giving you an additional .1-.2 MoC procs per duel. Even if you had all the creeps attacking you it seems like you're topping out at getting 1-2 extra MoCs procs per duel. Meanwhile an extra 20 attack speed from even 1 point in PtA is almost guaranteed to give you an extra attack over the course of a duel and 50 damage (minimum) from an extra level of OO is well 50 damage.
Obviously the lifesteal is a huge concern in a lot of situations, as is the timing you hit off having MoC leveled when you're looking for more than Duel ganks (or are fighting Duels with things like creep aggro), but it seems like leveling MoC is more of a compromise you need to make for survivability and farm rather than the best way to grab duel ganks. If your stronger than the person you are dueling anyways the extra levels of MoC does really little for you. If you feel really confident in your ability to farm without MoC and you are fine on survivability due to the game situation it seems like multiple levels of MoC are sort of a waste; hence Dendi's build maybe?
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do...
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On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do...
I was wondering that myself. Any info?
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On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do...
In wc3 dota1 MoC was coded to increase his attack speed for a brief moment to above the max to get the MoC attack off( at least that' how I understand it), depending on where he was in her previous auto-attack animation, he would get an extra MoC attack in. It amounted to about 50% of the time (I believe)
Dota2 is coded differently, and I'm not sure exactly how, but they have given MoC the same rough % chance of getting two MoC attacks off in one proc.
I read somewhere on the Dev forum that this is intended (whether intentionally or unintentionally in Dota1, they have kept in the same in dota2)
Your base attack speed doesn't matter for your Proc chance or number of hits(or it shouldn't), its simply the way it is coded, you are probably seeing a number of these "double" MoC attacks.
Or it is simply bugged, but I haven't noticed much difference between Dota1 and Dota2 in the way MoC works.
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On December 19 2013 02:02 Logo wrote:
I wonder how valuable MoC levels are for dueling; level 1 is a no brainer of course. Going from level 1 -> 4 is a 16% -> 22% chance increase in proc rate which is relatively minor. I know the PRNG is going to mess up the math a bit, but if you take the actual % values at face value you're looking at only 6 additional MoC's per 100 attacks. Realistically early heroes, especially int supports, are only going to get like 4-5 attacks off during a level 1 duel which means a maxxed MoC is only giving you an additional .1-.2 MoC procs per duel. Even if you had all the creeps attacking you it seems like you're topping out at getting 1-2 extra MoCs procs per duel. Meanwhile an extra 20 attack speed from even 1 point in PtA is almost guaranteed to give you an extra attack over the course of a duel and 50 damage (minimum) from an extra level of OO is well 50 damage.
Obviously the lifesteal is a huge concern in a lot of situations, as is the timing you hit off having MoC leveled when you're looking for more than Duel ganks (or are fighting Duels with things like creep aggro), but it seems like leveling MoC is more of a compromise you need to make for survivability and farm rather than the best way to grab duel ganks. If your stronger than the person you are dueling anyways the extra levels of MoC does really little for you. If you feel really confident in your ability to farm without MoC and you are fine on survivability due to the game situation it seems like multiple levels of MoC are sort of a waste; hence Dendi's build maybe?
The reason for max MoC is for sustainable jungling without any investment in items, allowing you to rush a Blink Dagger.
In lane, you should be leaving MoC on 1 rank and maxing OO+PtA, as it does indeed have the worst per-rank gain of any of her skills.
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On December 19 2013 02:02 konadora wrote:
never played LC in wc3 dota, played first few games today
i really like that you can abuse duel to finish off low hp enemy heroes and permagain damage (without risk of losing them if you are gonna die, like a bloodstone charge or sf souls)
also, many people seem to go jungling with it, is it a decent option to go if you aren't laning? and do you go blink/lothars or skip this straight?
So LC is a solid jungler, but I would say only Jungle if you won't get farm priority in safe lane and it is in an unfavorable match up in the mid lane. She is MUCH better at jungle than LS or BS, and each level she gets makes her jungle clearing ability speed up exponentially because of MoC and PoA scaling.
Jungle you build her a LITTLE different imo. Obv you want your quelling blade in the jungle and I go PoA and MoC until six. (3 in PoA 2 in MoC and then duel at six and 1 point in OO at seven for the move speed bonus in teamfights) but I personally go treads into Blink and then go back for a BKB (if needed) and then go for a Maelstrom/Mjollnir (I don't grab Armlet because if I am jungling then I am not primary carry, so I will build items to abuse my duel, and the damage, as and lightning shield from mjollnir really fucks people up in duel.
Shadowblade is a waste imo, because it is a supremely expensive item when compared to a armlet. If you want to get blink armlet, its 1000 more than a shadowblade and provides a lot more versatility for her imo.
Blink first after boots in the jungle is quite strong because of the blink ganks early to duel, but you need to have a team that will back you up/coordinate with you because you will not get a solo kill early unless enemy hero is low.
My safelane build is Phase, urn, into Armlet and then I go blink/BKB (if needed) and AC and Heart. I don't get Basher/Abyssal because her bonus damage from duels should more than account for basher abyssal damage (lock down is nice, but I think the armor and heart is better, its really preference)
Thats why I love LC more than any other Hero, She is super versatile and can do well with a wide array of items AS LONG AS you play her to fit the items you have. (I see people player her as a jungle and try to hard carry and they don't do very well)
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On December 19 2013 02:30 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:02 konadora wrote:
never played LC in wc3 dota, played first few games today
i really like that you can abuse duel to finish off low hp enemy heroes and permagain damage (without risk of losing them if you are gonna die, like a bloodstone charge or sf souls)
also, many people seem to go jungling with it, is it a decent option to go if you aren't laning? and do you go blink/lothars or skip this straight? So LC is a solid jungler, but I would say only Jungle if you won't get farm priority in safe lane and it is in an unfavorable match up in the mid lane. She is MUCH better at jungle than LS or BS, and each level she gets makes her jungle clearing ability speed up exponentially because of MoC and PoA scaling. Jungle you build her a LITTLE different imo. Obv you want your quelling blade in the jungle and I go PoA and MoC until six. (3 in PoA 2 in MoC and then duel at six and 1 point in OO at seven for the move speed bonus in teamfights) but I personally go treads into Blink and then go back for a BKB (if needed) and then go for a Maelstrom/Mjollnir (I don't grab Armlet because if I am jungling then I am not primary carry, so I will build items to abuse my duel, and the damage, as and lightning shield from mjollnir really fucks people up in duel. Shadowblade is a waste imo, because it is a supremely expensive item when compared to a armlet. If you want to get blink armlet, its 1000 more than a shadowblade and provides a lot more versatility for her imo. Blink first after boots in the jungle is quite strong because of the blink ganks early to duel, but you need to have a team that will back you up/coordinate with you because you will not get a solo kill early unless enemy hero is low. My safelane build is Phase, urn, into Armlet and then I go blink/BKB (if needed) and AC and Heart. I don't get Basher/Abyssal because her bonus damage from duels should more than account for basher abyssal damage (lock down is nice, but I think the armor and heart is better, its really preference) Thats why I love LC more than any other Hero, She is super versatile and can do well with a wide array of items AS LONG AS you play her to fit the items you have. (I see people player her as a jungle and try to hard carry and they don't do very well)
I see, I did find it waaaaaaay easier to farm jungle than, say naix or furion.
When I laned, I maxed OO first, is that better?
The second game I played, I went blink because I had serious mana issues and SB was way too expensive as well, so I guess it was the better choice... but I also did go soul ring. Good or bad call?
Phase or treads? I find that sometimes I was just a bit too slow in chasing to start a duel on a running hero, so I felt phase was a better boots imo.
Also, I've seen ppl go deso as first damage item and I've also done it myself, and it did pretty good I feel as my first damage item.
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People really over-itemize damage on this hero. Realistically if you are getting Duel kills at any reasonable rate, there's no reason that you need to build damage any more aggressively than BKB+AC+maybe a lategame Crit in a good game.
Maelstrom can be a stop-off for a farming item in a stalled out game, where the enemy is playing too tight for you to get Duel kills, but your team isn't ahead enough to break T2/T3's. Finishing Mjollnir over AC is not that compelling.
Once you have several Duel stacks, damage-dealing really isn't your biggest problem in fights.
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Shadow Blade over Blink in pubs, just like Shadow Fiend or Doom. It's just better.
Except if you're doing the naked Blink rush in jungle.
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On December 19 2013 02:41 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:30 Ravensong170 wrote:On December 19 2013 02:02 konadora wrote:
never played LC in wc3 dota, played first few games today
i really like that you can abuse duel to finish off low hp enemy heroes and permagain damage (without risk of losing them if you are gonna die, like a bloodstone charge or sf souls)
also, many people seem to go jungling with it, is it a decent option to go if you aren't laning? and do you go blink/lothars or skip this straight? So LC is a solid jungler, but I would say only Jungle if you won't get farm priority in safe lane and it is in an unfavorable match up in the mid lane. She is MUCH better at jungle than LS or BS, and each level she gets makes her jungle clearing ability speed up exponentially because of MoC and PoA scaling. Jungle you build her a LITTLE different imo. Obv you want your quelling blade in the jungle and I go PoA and MoC until six. (3 in PoA 2 in MoC and then duel at six and 1 point in OO at seven for the move speed bonus in teamfights) but I personally go treads into Blink and then go back for a BKB (if needed) and then go for a Maelstrom/Mjollnir (I don't grab Armlet because if I am jungling then I am not primary carry, so I will build items to abuse my duel, and the damage, as and lightning shield from mjollnir really fucks people up in duel. Shadowblade is a waste imo, because it is a supremely expensive item when compared to a armlet. If you want to get blink armlet, its 1000 more than a shadowblade and provides a lot more versatility for her imo. Blink first after boots in the jungle is quite strong because of the blink ganks early to duel, but you need to have a team that will back you up/coordinate with you because you will not get a solo kill early unless enemy hero is low. My safelane build is Phase, urn, into Armlet and then I go blink/BKB (if needed) and AC and Heart. I don't get Basher/Abyssal because her bonus damage from duels should more than account for basher abyssal damage (lock down is nice, but I think the armor and heart is better, its really preference) Thats why I love LC more than any other Hero, She is super versatile and can do well with a wide array of items AS LONG AS you play her to fit the items you have. (I see people player her as a jungle and try to hard carry and they don't do very well) I see, I did find it waaaaaaay easier to farm jungle than, say naix or furion. When I laned, I maxed OO first, is that better? The second game I played, I went blink because I had serious mana issues and SB was way too expensive as well, so I guess it was the better choice... but I also did go soul ring. Good or bad call? Phase or treads? I find that sometimes I was just a bit too slow in chasing to start a duel on a running hero, so I felt phase was a better boots imo. Also, I've seen ppl go deso as first damage item and I've also done it myself, and it did pretty good I feel as my first damage item.
Well Like what NotYango says above me, Damage items aren't your main priority when you are winning duels, I don't get Soul Ring because it doesn't do much for you and her mana problems really aren't that bad. OO in lane can be maxed first if you have the sustain to maintain harass in the lane, which I guess could justify your soul ring. I in safelane get at least three points in PoA for the debuff remove and regen, and get at least one point in MoC at level five and I get at least one points OO, but I use OO sparingly when I can grab a lot of creeps in the AoE for bonus damage. I DO max POA first however, because the AS bonus you get if you cast before the duel is super nice.
I get treads in jungle and go phase in lane to have some early move speed and damage for the early duels. I get urn after phase in lane to make up for the lack of strength from phase as well as the sustain from the hero kills you should be getting.
To NotYango, I agree with the damage point, I don't go Deso/basher/Abyssal unless I haven't been able to get early duel kills which means a more farming game, but I like the Maelstrom/Mjollnir from the jungle for the AS bonus and the creep clearing potential and I like the Mjollnir for the same real reason. AC is a great item as well, but I guess my playstyle when I am jungling her I like to get the Maelstrom to farm quickly when Duel is on cooldown. I eventually get the AC (unless better carrier on my team) It's just preference in my opinion. When lane her and she is more of a 2/3 role carry then I go for the AC and armlet and all that jazz.
I rarely Jungle her because I usually play with a bunch of friends who will give me a lane usually, (unless my friend plays clockwerk) cause I love to roam gank with clockwerk. Blink into his cogs after hook, duel for fast damage. Especially vs a split pushing weaver, Nothing is so satisfying as killing a weaver in that fashion
Edit: I play a more passive laning game because she doesn't have lock down early which is why I will go 1-3-1 in safe lane. Your max OO build can be super strong if you have a lane partner with strong lockdown/slow and hte OO move/bonus and damage can be very abusable. Again, you just need to think about your match up and your team comp and what build fits best into what your team can do.
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On December 19 2013 02:58 hariooo wrote:
Shadow Blade over Blink in pubs, just like Shadow Fiend or Doom. It's just better.
Except if you're doing the naked Blink rush in jungle.
I strongly disagree, you don't need either on doom and on SF a blink will allow you to get into position to ult or raze even better than sb in most games, because the enemy isnt stupid and will start buying wards and duss, plus its cheaper and a lot more fun to play.
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On December 19 2013 03:20 StoRm_res wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:58 hariooo wrote:
Shadow Blade over Blink in pubs, just like Shadow Fiend or Doom. It's just better.
Except if you're doing the naked Blink rush in jungle. I strongly disagree, you don't need either on doom and on SF a blink will allow you to get into position to ult or raze even better than sb in most games, because the enemy isnt stupid and will start buying wards and duss, plus its cheaper and a lot more fun to play.
Yeah, I don't get this, maybe in lower bracket it is better, but you get the momentum after you buy SB for about few minutes after they realize that you have it and start buying wards/dust/gem and you lose a big chunk of the item that costs 3000 because of wards that cost 200...
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Somewhat of a digression, but at higher levels SB has always been a map control/farming item. Of course you're less likely to get solo kills and can't use it as an escape, but the fact that the invisibility limits where the enemy can safely move both expands your farming space and limits theirs. The draw of this on SF is that 1) he farms blindingly fast and can take advantage in any increase in farming space, and 2) he's incredibly easy to gank, so without some limiter on the enemy's map movement, farming *everywhere* is actually quite dangerous.
Blink on SF has always been a show-off item, and not a legitimate choice for serious situations. That comparison shouldn't even be made.
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Also aggree with NotYango, it seems like you get a crapload of damage as the game goes on, and it's really tankiness (and maybe some attack speed) you need later. IMO you really just need 1 in MoC and PtA to jungle effectively, but then again I only jungle until 6 (going 3-1-1-1) and then just go duel ganking instead of jungling straight to blink.
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I much prefer blink, especially if you're jungle where you can have max rank Press the Attack. +120 AS more than makes up for any damage lost skipping shadow blade.
Trying to cast Press the Attack before you duel with shadowblade is a great way to screw up a gank.
Soul Ring sounds pretty legit if you're in lane and maxing OOdds. I definitely notice mana issues with any sort of 4/4/1 build.
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On December 19 2013 02:14 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do... In wc3 dota1 MoC was coded to increase his attack speed for a brief moment to above the max to get the MoC attack off( at least that' how I understand it), depending on where he was in her previous auto-attack animation, he would get an extra MoC attack in. It amounted to about 50% of the time (I believe) Dota2 is coded differently, and I'm not sure exactly how, but they have given MoC the same rough % chance of getting two MoC attacks off in one proc. I read somewhere on the Dev forum that this is intended (whether intentionally or unintentionally in Dota1, they have kept in the same in dota2) Your base attack speed doesn't matter for your Proc chance or number of hits(or it shouldn't), its simply the way it is coded, you are probably seeing a number of these "double" MoC attacks. Or it is simply bugged, but I haven't noticed much difference between Dota1 and Dota2 in the way MoC works.
I'm certain this is wrong. I consistently find that she gets more MoC procs with higher attackspeed. Late game it's normal to get three in a row with a few attackspeed items. I also think it's noticeable when jungling early; I'm convinced she double-procs more often with PtA up.
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Here's what works very well in lower level pubs:
Jungle maxing MoC and PtA, dagger, phase, after that it really doesn't matter. Just spend your gold and pretty much anything you buy is good, personally I usually go crit or bkb first, blade mail works good too.
Shadow blade is probably not a waste of money but at least I wouldn't buy basher, you don't really want anybody stunned, the more they hit you the faster they die and the more you lifesteal.
Also, as LC in the pub type of game consider yourself primary carry no matter what heroes your allies play, unless and until you start failing and dying while somebody else gets the levels etc.
And don't think it's mentioned much yet but to duel try blink (or walk before you have blink) like axe into enemy creep waves, even under towers helps too, if somebody is alone inside a creep wave you're the winner. Even more than 1 hero and even early game, if there's a bunch of creeps often you're just unstoppable so don't be scared and go for it. Depending on number of their disables of course.
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On December 19 2013 07:50 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:14 Ravensong170 wrote:On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do... In wc3 dota1 MoC was coded to increase his attack speed for a brief moment to above the max to get the MoC attack off( at least that' how I understand it), depending on where he was in her previous auto-attack animation, he would get an extra MoC attack in. It amounted to about 50% of the time (I believe) Dota2 is coded differently, and I'm not sure exactly how, but they have given MoC the same rough % chance of getting two MoC attacks off in one proc. I read somewhere on the Dev forum that this is intended (whether intentionally or unintentionally in Dota1, they have kept in the same in dota2) Your base attack speed doesn't matter for your Proc chance or number of hits(or it shouldn't), its simply the way it is coded, you are probably seeing a number of these "double" MoC attacks. Or it is simply bugged, but I haven't noticed much difference between Dota1 and Dota2 in the way MoC works. I'm certain this is wrong. I consistently find that she gets more MoC procs with higher attackspeed. Late game it's normal to get three in a row with a few attackspeed items. I also think it's noticeable when jungling early; I'm convinced she double-procs more often with PtA up.
I dunno how you can be certain about this. MoC procs off BEING attacking, not her attacking. there is a chance each time an auto attack is initiated that it will proc. So yea you can see a large number of procs in a row because you have a 1 in 5 chance of procing the MoC and that could feasiblly happen each time MoC comes off cool down.
Her own attack speed should have nothing to do with that.
If you are referring to how many hits she gets in during the buff duration of MoC, then that may be bugged, but the MoC attacks should not be affected by attack speed since they are coded separately from her AS, or at least that's how they should have been, from the way it was explained in dev forums a few months back.
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Shadowblade seems clunky to me-- you can't reliably hit with shadow then buff yourself then duel because her cast animations suck.
Armlet seems underwhelming to me-- everything it gives is nice, but there's nothing you can suddenly do with it that you couldn't do before.
I prefer blink with phase. I think treads is wasted damage potential. The bonus damage from phase really helps a lot when you get passive procs.
If you max the nuke last soul ring is not necessary/useful. I think this is the correct way to build, as her nuke is somewhat unreliable damage.
I think leaving her passive at low levels is a mistake, as the increased lifesteal really helps you in teamfights where you're getting hit by everything + a creep wave. Right now I'm even leaning towards maxing it first (in lane) because it gives you increased lane-bullying capacity. Normally tanking the creep wave is bad to harass with, but with her passive it's actually useful/productive. This means that your supports can pretty safely leave the lane because you can sustain for free. It's like leaving a Naix in lane with a Sylla bear to feed off. The passive is also her primary farming tool, because even soul ring can't sustain constant nuke use.
I've been trying drum after blink, but I think it's probably a waste. I like BKB or Blademail, depending on what you're scared of, to follow blink. Then AC after. Heart is probably good after that. Deso isn't bad on her, but is probably less impactful than heart considering her job is to jump into the enemy team and manmode hardcore.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On December 19 2013 08:55 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 07:50 Belisarius wrote:On December 19 2013 02:14 Ravensong170 wrote:On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do... In wc3 dota1 MoC was coded to increase his attack speed for a brief moment to above the max to get the MoC attack off( at least that' how I understand it), depending on where he was in her previous auto-attack animation, he would get an extra MoC attack in. It amounted to about 50% of the time (I believe) Dota2 is coded differently, and I'm not sure exactly how, but they have given MoC the same rough % chance of getting two MoC attacks off in one proc. I read somewhere on the Dev forum that this is intended (whether intentionally or unintentionally in Dota1, they have kept in the same in dota2) Your base attack speed doesn't matter for your Proc chance or number of hits(or it shouldn't), its simply the way it is coded, you are probably seeing a number of these "double" MoC attacks. Or it is simply bugged, but I haven't noticed much difference between Dota1 and Dota2 in the way MoC works. I'm certain this is wrong. I consistently find that she gets more MoC procs with higher attackspeed. Late game it's normal to get three in a row with a few attackspeed items. I also think it's noticeable when jungling early; I'm convinced she double-procs more often with PtA up. I dunno how you can be certain about this. MoC procs off BEING attacking, not her attacking. there is a chance each time an auto attack is initiated that it will proc. So yea you can see a large number of procs in a row because you have a 1 in 5 chance of procing the MoC and that could feasiblly happen each time MoC comes off cool down. Her own attack speed should have nothing to do with that. If you are referring to how many hits she gets in during the buff duration of MoC, then that may be bugged, but the MoC attacks should not be affected by attack speed since they are coded separately from her AS, or at least that's how they should have been, from the way it was explained in dev forums a few months back.
i swear she gets off like 3 MoC or so sometimes, even more (the +hp thing says so)
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The +hp thing says it because about 50% of the time you get the lifesteal on the following attack because MoC happened to proc at the right time.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On December 19 2013 10:50 NotYango wrote:
The +hp thing says it because about 50% of the time you get the lifesteal on the following attack because MoC happened to proc at the right time.
so u lifesteal from your normal hit if u hit while MoC is triggered?
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On December 19 2013 10:53 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 10:50 NotYango wrote:
The +hp thing says it because about 50% of the time you get the lifesteal on the following attack because MoC happened to proc at the right time. so u lifesteal from your normal hit if u hit while MoC is triggered?
We have a wiki you know. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Legion_Commander#Moment_of_Courage
She gains lifesteal on all attacks for 0.5 seconds.
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On December 19 2013 07:50 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:14 Ravensong170 wrote:On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do... In wc3 dota1 MoC was coded to increase his attack speed for a brief moment to above the max to get the MoC attack off( at least that' how I understand it), depending on where he was in her previous auto-attack animation, he would get an extra MoC attack in. It amounted to about 50% of the time (I believe) Dota2 is coded differently, and I'm not sure exactly how, but they have given MoC the same rough % chance of getting two MoC attacks off in one proc. I read somewhere on the Dev forum that this is intended (whether intentionally or unintentionally in Dota1, they have kept in the same in dota2) Your base attack speed doesn't matter for your Proc chance or number of hits(or it shouldn't), its simply the way it is coded, you are probably seeing a number of these "double" MoC attacks. Or it is simply bugged, but I haven't noticed much difference between Dota1 and Dota2 in the way MoC works. I'm certain this is wrong. I consistently find that she gets more MoC procs with higher attackspeed. Late game it's normal to get three in a row with a few attackspeed items. I also think it's noticeable when jungling early; I'm convinced she double-procs more often with PtA up.
The whole double-triple procing thing is pretty much what the previous guy was trying to say. The way MoC is coded, if you get a MoC proc while you're in your frontswing animation, you get at least another MoC attack in. With faster attack speed, you end up in frontswing animation during attacks on you more often, so your likelihood of double-procing MoC is increased. So it's not that you have a higher chance of procing MoC, it's that when you do proc, it has a higher chance of being a double/triple proc. That's how I see it at least.
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Does anyone know what the minimum levels/farm is for Legion to solo Roshan?
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I feel that putting her safelane has a huge drawback: now your team's safelane farmer is a legion comander ><. LC really doesnt carry hard enough to justify safelane farm imo. Blink dagger rush from the jungle is very nice though, sort of like mek rush on enigma but with ganks instead of pushing/teamfight and with all the same advantages of having a bunch of extra gold from the jungle almost immediately being put to fighting use. I wonder how she would do as a lane support in the same vein as abbadon?
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Lane Legion should have at least Blink and Phase by the same time, which if Blink at that time is impactful obviously adding phase is even better. You can rotate someone else to farm priority while she ganks if that's how you want to run it. You can do something like an offlane Sylla and then give him the easy lane to farm Radiance or w/e he wants after Legion leaves to gank for rest of game.
This results in her guaranteeing her Blink timing to ensure she has it during her timing window, whereas jungling her vs competent opponents is abuseable if they have strong early gankers (such as roaming BH).
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LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm.
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On December 19 2013 16:22 DucK- wrote:
LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm.
She can do quite well in side lanes, particularly in pubs with decent lane support. I won't contest the preeminence of a mid or jungle, but the performance in side lanes is just fine. It's well in line with the usual melee carry heroes. She carries a shadowblade or blink well, and can initiate on the support for a duel kill quite early with the movement speed from OO and your lane support's slow/root/stun. It's a silence for 4 seconds with guaranteed lifesteal procs. Run her mid and jungle if you can--otherwise, if the situation calls for a ganker/carry melee hero pick her in a duo lane.
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On December 19 2013 16:22 DucK- wrote:
LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm.
What's your justification for her being a bad safe laner? She lanes better than many carries due to having her heal/debuff and situationally some lane-bullying capacity with her high movement speed + passive procs. Provided you pick well she's very scary once she farms Blink, which can force the enemy team to group. If you're prepared for that with your picks it's hard for the enemy team to do anything about that.
So relative to non-ganking carries she's good at ganking. Relative to ganking carries she's a good farmer. Relative to teamfight carries she's a good split-pusher. She's decent vs split pushers. She's situationally good in teamfights (albeit typically a little bad at them early). And she's the only carry that supports can directly help make stronger-- a support's dream come-true. When she's not dueling she's augmenting her capacity to duel; when she's not farming she's increasing her damage with duels to farm/fight better with.
Her ult isn't autowin-- you definitely have to use it intelligently, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Situationally she's a good initiator, other times she's better as the follow-up to other initiation.
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On December 19 2013 15:09 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Lane Legion should have at least Blink and Phase by the same time, which if Blink at that time is impactful obviously adding phase is even better. You can rotate someone else to farm priority while she ganks if that's how you want to run it. You can do something like an offlane Sylla and then give him the easy lane to farm Radiance or w/e he wants after Legion leaves to gank for rest of game.
This results in her guaranteeing her Blink timing to ensure she has it during her timing window, whereas jungling her vs competent opponents is abuseable if they have strong early gankers (such as roaming BH).
Yeah sure if you want your #2 to be a single target ganker and you have weaver/LD/OD or some other hero that can successfully be played as #1 from a none safelane position you could place LC safe. But then I still think slardar or pugna or something would offer more as #2 in the safelane.
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On December 19 2013 10:50 NotYango wrote:
The +hp thing says it because about 50% of the time you get the lifesteal on the following attack because MoC happened to proc at the right time.
That's the thing, though. You can get three separate lifesteal procs off a single MoC buff if your AS is high enough. The buff lasts for 0.5s with what looks like one free attack, so if your attack time is < 0.5s you're likely to get a third proc at least some of the time.
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Do desolator and basher work during duel ?
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On December 19 2013 20:07 BlitzerSC wrote:
Do desolator and basher work during duel ?
Desolator works, basher does not.
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crit, evasion, backtrack, minibash and truestrike (mkb), disarm, bash, cleave, vlads-lifesteal, orb lifesteal, mana burn, gem, radiance, pipe all removed
deso orb, lightning orb, venom orb, greater maim, lesser maim, javelin pierce, ac aura, necronomicon aura all NOT removed
Casual Javelin might kick ass~
Necro3 might be a hillarious early snowball item if you don't desperately need BKB, or at least not asap.
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Shadowblade if you are your teams first invis hero. The value of having an invis threat pays for itself in enemy sentries/dust fast over a game.
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such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz
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On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz
You could say that for all the new heroes that comes out. Same for Ember and Earth Spirit, few weeks after the release there was guarantee one or even both in the same game, every game. It is just flavor of the month, they will stop picking him in a month or so, trust me.
The only hero I think that shouldn't have been made even in DotA 1 is Phoenix, and I will hate the day when they introduce him into DotA 2.
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On December 19 2013 23:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz You could say that for all the new heroes that comes out. Same for Ember and Earth Spirit, few weeks after the release there was guarantee one or even both in the same game, every game. It is just flavor of the month, they will stop picking him in a month or so, trust me.
You're saying nobody is playing earth spirit anymore :O
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On December 19 2013 23:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz You could say that for all the new heroes that comes out. Same for Ember and Earth Spirit, few weeks after the release there was guarantee one or even both in the same game, every game. It is just flavor of the month, they will stop picking him in a month or so, trust me.
no not really... i ve been around long enough to notice the different. It was the same in HoN as well, there was a new hero every 2nd week, and Amun-Ra was just a no-brainer insta pick every game, and when i said how stupid a hero he is, and he s perma picked, people replied just cuz he's new...
No, it s an annoying hero which needs to be changed, or she s the new pudge-pick
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^
Scratch that, she's already way more picked than Pudge
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On December 19 2013 23:02 StoRm_res wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 23:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz You could say that for all the new heroes that comes out. Same for Ember and Earth Spirit, few weeks after the release there was guarantee one or even both in the same game, every game. It is just flavor of the month, they will stop picking him in a month or so, trust me. You're saying nobody is playing earth spirit anymore :O
Well when I said "they will stop picking", I meant that they will stop picking him every game, not completely. ;D
They are picking him, but not every game, no.
On December 19 2013 23:04 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 23:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz You could say that for all the new heroes that comes out. Same for Ember and Earth Spirit, few weeks after the release there was guarantee one or even both in the same game, every game. It is just flavor of the month, they will stop picking him in a month or so, trust me. no not really... i ve been around long enough to notice the different. It was the same in HoN as well, there was a new hero every 2nd week, and Amun-Ra was just a no-brainer insta pick every game, and when i said how stupid a hero he is, and he s perma picked, people replied just cuz he's new... No, it s an annoying hero which needs to be changed, or she s the new pudge-pick
It wasn't like that in DotA 1, and I really doubt that it will be like that in DotA 2. She can be strong in pubs, but overall she isn't that strong because she isn't that flexible. Lanaya was picked every game in DotA 2 when she made into it, and then people started to counter her and she is barely picked nowadays. They pick her because she is new and because she is fun to play.
And even if she is really strong, IceFrog will nerf her, and people will stop picking her as much. You can't really compare her to Amun-Ra, HoN never managed to get really competitive because of bad balance and support for the game. It was pretty obvious that Amun-Ra is broken, they still didn't do anything about it, of course they won't stop picking him.
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It always happens when a new hero comes out. Anyway, she's pretty simplistic with a fun mechanic, so I guess she'll keep having a strong pick ratio even after this.
If you care so much, take out AP from your gamemode preferences. You might even have a better time overall with the game. 
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On December 19 2013 23:23 Cervidaez wrote:It always happens when a new hero comes out. Anyway, she's pretty simplistic with a fun mechanic, so I guess she'll keep having a strong pick ratio even after this. If you care so much, take out AP from your gamemode preferences. You might even have a better time overall with the game.
with 10 minute que times, no thx
plus there is no AR etc in Ranked mode, and for some reason the non-ranked matchmaking isnt working for me, since the new patch
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On December 19 2013 23:24 Geo.Rion wrote:
with 10 minute que times, no thx
I took out AP and I have pretty fast queue times (no longer than 3 minutes) in unraked EUW, not sure about ranked.
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On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz
Why is it a stupid hero? Are you saying she is broken? or OP? or do you just not like her? or just annoyed that she is picked all the time because she has been out for a week. By your vague statement you could make the case about pretty much any hero in dota.....
personally she is completely balanced imo, and she is all I play in AP (so go ahead and blame me).
There are plenty of ways to counter her, and she has her own weaknesses/limitations that can be taken advantage if you can play against her properly.
she won't be picked much more since most people don't know how to play her. Her ability are pretty simply but she needs to be played intelligently.
Eventually maybe it'll be primarily me picking her all day every day. So maybe you'll eventually just call me stupid and I should be removed from the game :-D
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On December 19 2013 18:09 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 16:22 DucK- wrote:
LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm. What's your justification for her being a bad safe laner? She lanes better than many carries due to having her heal/debuff and situationally some lane-bullying capacity with her high movement speed + passive procs. Provided you pick well she's very scary once she farms Blink, which can force the enemy team to group. If you're prepared for that with your picks it's hard for the enemy team to do anything about that. So relative to non-ganking carries she's good at ganking. Relative to ganking carries she's a good farmer. Relative to teamfight carries she's a good split-pusher. She's decent vs split pushers. She's situationally good in teamfights (albeit typically a little bad at them early). And she's the only carry that supports can directly help make stronger-- a support's dream come-true. When she's not dueling she's augmenting her capacity to duel; when she's not farming she's increasing her damage with duels to farm/fight better with. Her ult isn't autowin-- you definitely have to use it intelligently, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Situationally she's a good initiator, other times she's better as the follow-up to other initiation.
She is just not worth being babysit by supports, because she is a bad carry. Heck she's not even a carry to begin with. Her skill set is all about ganking and not farming. She is probably a #2-3 role, but never a #1.
Legion is also not a great solo mid. She has a normal nuke early on, and good regen. That's about it. The worst part is that you should only get 1 point OO for the MS, and max PTA and MOC first, but being in lane forces you to max OO first. It gimps your killing ability.
She can solo sidelane though. But its hardly that impressive, and is very dependent on who she faces.
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The thing about safe lane LC is that in most pubs, the safe lane is the easiest lane to gank for. But if you ARE the safe lane hero, you essentially have to sit there waiting or yelling for your teammates to come gank FOR you.
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If you're running a semi-carry or carry mid (i.e. OD, TA, SF, etc.), offlane (Clinkz) or both having someone like an LC as safelane farm doesn't seem like a big deal even if she doesn't carry hard. I'd imagine it's a similar idea to a safelane Mirana.
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On December 20 2013 05:17 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 22:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
such a stupid hero, i wihsh they would just remove it. every single game there is an LC zzzzz Why is it a stupid hero? Are you saying she is broken? or OP? or do you just not like her? or just annoyed that she is picked all the time because she has been out for a week. By your vague statement you could make the case about pretty much any hero in dota..... personally she is completely balanced imo, and she is all I play in AP (so go ahead and blame me). There are plenty of ways to counter her, and she has her own weaknesses/limitations that can be taken advantage if you can play against her properly. she won't be picked much more since most people don't know how to play her. Her ability are pretty simply but she needs to be played intelligently. Eventually maybe it'll be primarily me picking her all day every day. So maybe you'll eventually just call me stupid and I should be removed from the game :-D
She pretty strong atm right next to earth spirit and we all know how retarded that hero is. She might even be stronger due to earth nerf last patch but hard to say. I think they are both insanely too strong. Legion can go on all lane and jungle and has strong carry potential. Im curious to hear how YOU would counter her because as far as I see, as long as she isnt stupid and just keep picking off weak hero and winning duels, she is going to snow ball out of control. She was basically built to snowball and the only way I see to some what deal with her is to 5 man fairly fairly early to not risk the chance of getting pick off to much to let LC snowball out of control. Honestly, you should NEVER lose a duel as legion commander.
On December 20 2013 05:27 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 18:09 Nightmarjoo wrote:On December 19 2013 16:22 DucK- wrote:
LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm. What's your justification for her being a bad safe laner? She lanes better than many carries due to having her heal/debuff and situationally some lane-bullying capacity with her high movement speed + passive procs. Provided you pick well she's very scary once she farms Blink, which can force the enemy team to group. If you're prepared for that with your picks it's hard for the enemy team to do anything about that. So relative to non-ganking carries she's good at ganking. Relative to ganking carries she's a good farmer. Relative to teamfight carries she's a good split-pusher. She's decent vs split pushers. She's situationally good in teamfights (albeit typically a little bad at them early). And she's the only carry that supports can directly help make stronger-- a support's dream come-true. When she's not dueling she's augmenting her capacity to duel; when she's not farming she's increasing her damage with duels to farm/fight better with. Her ult isn't autowin-- you definitely have to use it intelligently, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Situationally she's a good initiator, other times she's better as the follow-up to other initiation. She is just not worth being babysit by supports, because she is a bad carry. Heck she's not even a carry to begin with. Her skill set is all about ganking and not farming. She is probably a #2-3 role, but never a #1. Legion is also not a great solo mid. She has a normal nuke early on, and good regen. That's about it. The worst part is that you should only get 1 point OO for the MS, and max PTA and MOC first, but being in lane forces you to max OO first. It gimps your killing ability. She can solo sidelane though. But its hardly that impressive, and is very dependent on who she faces.
I disagree, I think she is fairly decent mid. She has a great way to clear creep and to grab rune. Also allows her to get lvl fast her ulti to start dueling and getting damage. She also has decent stats and decent last hitting power. You said it yourself, she is a ganking hero and the best thing for a ganking hero is to get lvl fast.
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Her ability to actually play the lane is exactly the same as any other melee AoE bottle crow hero. The difference is that said melee AoE bottle crow heroes generally have a higher impact on the game without their first core item than LC does, and generally are doing things they want to do/buying items they would otherwise already be buying.
Everything LC has to do to be passable mid (namely, leveling OO instead of PtA to Bottle-Crow AoE clear, and buying things like Bottle and Boots before her Blink) all just slow her down on doing the things she actually wants to do, which is max PtA + fast Blink Dagger. You have to spend 1-2k on items to lane (Bottle, Boots, sometimes upgraded Boots depending on lane) before you can save for Blink, and you have to level the skill that is least useful for your first few Blink ganks.
She pretty strong atm right next to earth spirit and we all know how retarded that hero is.
You're fucking joking right?
Earth Spirit is the hero that high level pub players would insta-repick in DotA 1 because he's so OP that it's not fun to get wins with him.
LC is the hero that high level pub players would groan at in DotA 1 because he has such little game impact if he doesn't snowball.
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On December 20 2013 05:27 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 18:09 Nightmarjoo wrote:On December 19 2013 16:22 DucK- wrote:
LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm. What's your justification for her being a bad safe laner? She lanes better than many carries due to having her heal/debuff and situationally some lane-bullying capacity with her high movement speed + passive procs. Provided you pick well she's very scary once she farms Blink, which can force the enemy team to group. If you're prepared for that with your picks it's hard for the enemy team to do anything about that. So relative to non-ganking carries she's good at ganking. Relative to ganking carries she's a good farmer. Relative to teamfight carries she's a good split-pusher. She's decent vs split pushers. She's situationally good in teamfights (albeit typically a little bad at them early). And she's the only carry that supports can directly help make stronger-- a support's dream come-true. When she's not dueling she's augmenting her capacity to duel; when she's not farming she's increasing her damage with duels to farm/fight better with. Her ult isn't autowin-- you definitely have to use it intelligently, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Situationally she's a good initiator, other times she's better as the follow-up to other initiation. She is just not worth being babysit by supports, because she is a bad carry. Heck she's not even a carry to begin with. Her skill set is all about ganking and not farming. She is probably a #2-3 role, but never a #1. Legion is also not a great solo mid. She has a normal nuke early on, and good regen. That's about it. The worst part is that you should only get 1 point OO for the MS, and max PTA and MOC first, but being in lane forces you to max OO first. It gimps your killing ability. She can solo sidelane though. But its hardly that impressive, and is very dependent on who she faces.
Definition of a carry: hero who scales with farm. Disruptor is not a carry because farming items on him doesn't increase his capacity to put out damage at a nonlinear rate. A Disruptor with dps items puts out the same damage as a Lich with damage items. By contrast when you give Legion items her passive alone enables her to put out more damage with the same items. This makes her a carry.
You say her skill set is all about ganking, but that's not quite true. Her ult is her greatest asset and is best used by ganking, but even it doesn't require you to gank. You could run Legion as a farmer/pusher instead of a ganker if you chose, and used her kit for counter-ganks. Certainly her other skills all make her a decent farmer and pusher, which is why she's capable of jungling at all. Why would you want to run her as a farmer instead? Because they picked heroes or are playing in a manner that makes getting early Duel kills difficult. Obviously you'd rather gank with her because that opens up the possibility of snowballing to victory sooner, but you are in no way forced to.
You are correct in saying she's not a great mid in most scenarios, because there's no single early item that lets her dominate teamfights, but nor are most carries, so that's irrelevant.
I have no idea why you think she's forced to level her nuke in lane (unless you mean specifically the midlane, which I agree with). I think her mid skill build is maxing Q > E > W with a single point in W at 4, which is fine since she's getting good levels, and since W doesn't improve that much per level after 1. In the side lane her nuke isn't useful since she can't utilize it without disrupting creep equilibrium.
The whole concept having her team come to her to set up Duel kills isn't really unusual for a carry. Rather I think what's notable is that the enemy will be hard-pressed to gank her with 1-2, forcing larger reactions by their team, making their intent obvious. Think about an Antimage being ganked, all he can do is try to Blink away. If his team shows up to help he can still only Blink away, or maybe secure a kill/cancel a TP with his ult, etc. If Legion is ganked she can attempt to fight the gankers provided she isn't chain stunned forever before her team can react. If that happens yes she'll still die, but so would any other carry with no support. If her team does show up before she dies they may be able to set up a Duel kill, which is great for her even if she has to go back to base-- but it's unlikely she'll need to given her innate capacity to sustain herself.
This means that she can push with her team a bit to threaten some objective, which since it's too risky to respond to a Legion push with just one or two heroes means they have to rotate 3-4 (assuming one is still back/dead), which frees up the map for someone else on the team to pressure a different objective. If such a push can catch one out at any point it isn't just 250-300 gold and an easier push, it's that in addition to +10/14/18 bonus damage. If no one is caught out you still damage or kill a tower provided their antipush is not obscenely good. Even if it is good you may be able to win the teamfight if you can Duel their scariest disable/aoe hero. Even if you don't get the bonus damage a won teamfight + tower kill is still good.
The whole point is that Legion opens up opportunities for your team that other carries don't, even if they farm faster. She's not perfect-- she doesn't open up every opportunity-- certainly a Luna opens up much better teamfight opportunities than she does, but relative to a Luna she can more safely push a lane alone due to her strong sustaining kit.
Even if she's not getting Duel damage she can be useful if used well just as a disable in teamfights as long as she doesn't die, and her kit is optimal for keeping her alive. Won-team-fights give gold and open up farming/Roshan opportunities that help make her stronger which help secure Duel damage later on. Relative to other carries she can always fight something on the map (though it may require a creep wave to tank for passive procs). Using her just requires being smart with her abilities and item builds. A Legion successfully snowballing off Duel damage will probably build a different way than a Legion who hasn't had the opportunity to win Duels, but that doesn't mean the latter is useless. The draft definitely matters as well-- you can't just pick her any time and expect her to perform well, which is of course true for all other carries, but that with smart play her kit should still open up opportunities for the team to get ahead even in a draft that is disadvantageous for her.
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If you're in lane, you should max MoC last. It's the weakest skill overall from ranks 2-4, and the only reason to level it is for the sustainability in the jungle.
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i just wanna say
LC counters brood so fucking hard LOL
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Hmm I like the passive first because it gives you the option of jungling/killing ancients any time you can't safely farm the lane, and guarantees that you at least won't lose a Duel if there's a creep wave around. I agree that her skill build should be all about maximizing her first ganks-- so what is strongest at level 6, 7, and 8, etc. My gut feeling could be wrong here, but I feel like I'd rather have the lifesteal for manning-up capacity than +20 attack speed for 5s. You don't have to commit to a duel if they're willing to man up against you-- you can wait to see if they have hidden back-up or not before using it, and once they commit at all it's hard for them to change their mind because of her speed and eventually because of Blink. If you man-up and it turns out they have back-up I think passive procs with higher lifesteal levels is more likely to keep you alive than the regen from her buff.
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Until your damage is quite high, unless you get an inordinate number of MoC procs, the heal from PtA will actually heal you more than the additional lifesteal in the span of a Duel.
Ancients with 4-1-4 isn't really feasible because even if it's sustainable, it's far too slow. PtA max actually is more reasonable for Ancient clearing.
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I'm not prioritizing the buff last, I prioritize it second, even as a laner. A single point in the nuke has utility for the speed buff, and I just find I have horrible mana problems if I try leveling and using the nuke before level 12+. And as you pointed out, the nuke isn't reliable damage early anyway since most people aren't sitting in the middle of creep waves. Aggro range can bring creep waves to you during Duel, but the nuke requires them to be in place first.
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On December 20 2013 07:16 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I'm not prioritizing the buff last, I prioritize it second, even as a laner.
That's not what you said:
I think her mid skill build is maxing Q > E > W with a single point in W at 4
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Sorry for the misunderstanding-- what I've said in this thread is fairly all over the place as far as what scenario I'm describing; but when say "lane" or "laner" I'm referring to sidelane, and say "mid" when explicitly referring to mid. In which case I now realize/think that you're saying W is better than E in mid, which I think I still disagree with since you're guaranteed a creep wave while harassing them. I generally prioritize E>W>Q, but mid benefits from the nuke for wave-clear for rune control. I suppose you could play her mid like an OD or Invoker or Silencer etc and just focus on lane domination, using E and W for mass harass/sustain to try to force them out of lane and skip rune control.
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You counter Legion commander in lane by applying pressure, same as any farm dependant hero. Relying on her to lose a duel is not how you should play against her. any spell, if used incorrectly will cause the hero to be weaker and you don't plan/think about that.
Apply pressure early, yea she can regen in the lane and all that, be you are mainly focusing on denying her last hits. If she is jungling, then ward the jungle camps, and periodically roam supports. In a well balanced team, she isn't the hero that you look to shut down though, or she shouldn't be. There should always be a stronger carry or a more tempo controlling her on the team. She's more of a backbone core hero that provides solid damage, regen, and can dispel debuffs.
LC is most likely not the primary reason a team will win a game. I've had plenty of games where I have been fed 300+ damage on LC and still the lost the game because the other team simply worked better together, or had split push. She is a single target melee damage dealer. Kite her, shut down her blink. Imagine she is like ursa, strong, but when played against correctly, completely manageable.
Like radiance specter. Fast way to annoy the shit/shut down an Lc's blink potential.
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Show nested quote +On December 20 2013 06:45 Nightmarjoo wrote:On December 20 2013 05:27 DucK- wrote:On December 19 2013 18:09 Nightmarjoo wrote:On December 19 2013 16:22 DucK- wrote:
LC is actually quite a bad hero from a competitive perspective. He can only be solo mid or in the jungle. In both cases, his performance is not exactly the greatest. His ulti is a double edge sword as you are also disabled. Unlike Batrider where you can relatively safely initiate on the enemy regardless of where his allies are, LC can only do so against lone heroes.
In pubs though it's a different thing. SB puts alot of pressure on the enemy, and also allows you to get many free damage. You also can easily get uncontested jungle farm. + Show Spoiler +What's your justification for her being a bad safe laner? She lanes better than many carries due to having her heal/debuff and situationally some lane-bullying capacity with her high movement speed + passive procs. Provided you pick well she's very scary once she farms Blink, which can force the enemy team to group. If you're prepared for that with your picks it's hard for the enemy team to do anything about that.
So relative to non-ganking carries she's good at ganking. Relative to ganking carries she's a good farmer. Relative to teamfight carries she's a good split-pusher. She's decent vs split pushers. She's situationally good in teamfights (albeit typically a little bad at them early). And she's the only carry that supports can directly help make stronger-- a support's dream come-true. When she's not dueling she's augmenting her capacity to duel; when she's not farming she's increasing her damage with duels to farm/fight better with.
Her ult isn't autowin-- you definitely have to use it intelligently, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Situationally she's a good initiator, other times she's better as the follow-up to other initiation. She is just not worth being babysit by supports, because she is a bad carry. Heck she's not even a carry to begin with. Her skill set is all about ganking and not farming. She is probably a #2-3 role, but never a #1. Legion is also not a great solo mid. She has a normal nuke early on, and good regen. That's about it. The worst part is that you should only get 1 point OO for the MS, and max PTA and MOC first, but being in lane forces you to max OO first. It gimps your killing ability. She can solo sidelane though. But its hardly that impressive, and is very dependent on who she faces. Definition of a carry: hero who scales with farm. Disruptor is not a carry because farming items on him doesn't increase his capacity to put out damage at a nonlinear rate. A Disruptor with dps items puts out the same damage as a Lich with damage items. By contrast when you give Legion items her passive alone enables her to put out more damage with the same items. This makes her a carry. You say her skill set is all about ganking, but that's not quite true. Her ult is her greatest asset and is best used by ganking, but even it doesn't require you to gank. You could run Legion as a farmer/pusher instead of a ganker if you chose, and used her kit for counter-ganks. Certainly her other skills all make her a decent farmer and pusher, which is why she's capable of jungling at all. Why would you want to run her as a farmer instead? Because they picked heroes or are playing in a manner that makes getting early Duel kills difficult. Obviously you'd rather gank with her because that opens up the possibility of snowballing to victory sooner, but you are in no way forced to. You are correct in saying she's not a great mid in most scenarios, because there's no single early item that lets her dominate teamfights, but nor are most carries, so that's irrelevant. The whole concept having her team come to her to set up Duel kills isn't really unusual for a carry. Rather I think what's notable is that the enemy will be hard-pressed to gank her with 1-2, forcing larger reactions by their team, making their intent obvious. Think about an Antimage being ganked, all he can do is try to Blink away. If his team shows up to help he can still only Blink away, or maybe secure a kill/cancel a TP with his ult, etc. If Legion is ganked she can attempt to fight the gankers provided she isn't chain stunned forever before her team can react. If that happens yes she'll still die, but so would any other carry with no support. If her team does show up before she dies they may be able to set up a Duel kill, which is great for her even if she has to go back to base-- but it's unlikely she'll need to given her innate capacity to sustain herself. This means that she can push with her team a bit to threaten some objective, which since it's too risky to respond to a Legion push with just one or two heroes means they have to rotate 3-4 (assuming one is still back/dead), which frees up the map for someone else on the team to pressure a different objective. If such a push can catch one out at any point it isn't just 250-300 gold and an easier push, it's that in addition to +10/14/18 bonus damage. If no one is caught out you still damage or kill a tower provided their antipush is not obscenely good. Even if it is good you may be able to win the teamfight if you can Duel their scariest disable/aoe hero. Even if you don't get the bonus damage a won teamfight + tower kill is still good. The whole point is that Legion opens up opportunities for your team that other carries don't, even if they farm faster. She's not perfect-- she doesn't open up every opportunity-- certainly a Luna opens up much better teamfight opportunities than she does, but relative to a Luna she can more safely push a lane alone due to her strong sustaining kit. Even if she's not getting Duel damage she can be useful if used well just as a disable in teamfights as long as she doesn't die, and her kit is optimal for keeping her alive. Won-team-fights give gold and open up farming/Roshan opportunities that help make her stronger which help secure Duel damage later on. Relative to other carries she can always fight something on the map (though it may require a creep wave to tank for passive procs). Using her just requires being smart with her abilities and item builds. A Legion successfully snowballing off Duel damage will probably build a different way than a Legion who hasn't had the opportunity to win Duels, but that doesn't mean the latter is useless. The draft definitely matters as well-- you can't just pick her any time and expect her to perform well, which is of course true for all other carries, but that with smart play her kit should still open up opportunities for the team to get ahead even in a draft that is disadvantageous for her.
This. She is a versatile hero, that CAN carry, but isn't an AM or Luna or Gyro who can eventually 1 v 5 the enemy team. That isn't going to happen with her unless she gets 10+ duel kills before the 20 min mark (happened to me once :-D) . She is an adaptable hero that can disrupt a team, chase very well, and can disable certain heroes during teamfights. In a competitive scene she can most certainly fit into a draft. She simply needs to be with the right heroes, and given the ability to farm her early items. I would compare her to an ursa in the sense that she can be kited, has no escape, but if you get in melee range, the enemy will be very unhappy.
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Admittedly it is the eventual/inevitable 1v5 part I'm struggling with; and yes shutting down her blink is pretty annoying. I'm hopeful that there are tactical/strategic/drafting solutions to these weaknesses though.
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Alternately, pick SD/OD, banish her duel target, and enjoy the fact that she's effectively stunned herself for 2.5-4 seconds.
EDIT: This was not worth first post on a new page...
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On December 20 2013 08:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Admittedly it is the eventual/inevitable 1v5 part I'm struggling with; and yes shutting down her blink is pretty annoying. I'm hopeful that there are tactical/strategic/drafting solutions to these weaknesses though.
Honestly, just pick a team that can 5-man an advantage in the range where she wants to be picking off people for Duel kills. Chen, Pugna, etc. any early push/teamfight hero.
LC's early teamfight is actually quite weak in the level 7-10 range when she will basically have nothing but a Blink. She has 1 nuke which she doesn't really want to max, no disable outside of her ultimate which she can't use freely if she isn't sure about winning the Duel, and ultimately quite low teamfight contribution before she can get Duel stacks and items. She needs Blink to engage, but doesn't have any way to guarantee not dying on that engage before her first major defensive item. Pretty much the only way LC ever wins teamfights at that level is if she gets a Duel initiate on a key hero and their team is brain-dead does absolutely nothing to save them.
She's a bit like SB in that she preys on the natural pub tendencies to spread out, farm, and do your own shit, but it also means a lot of the same principles to stopping her apply.
On December 20 2013 08:20 Ravensong170 wrote:
This. She is a versatile hero, that CAN carry, but isn't an AM or Luna or Gyro who can eventually 1 v 5 the enemy team. That isn't going to happen with her unless she gets 10+ duel kills before the 20 min mark (happened to me once :-D) . She is an adaptable hero that can disrupt a team, chase very well, and can disable certain heroes during teamfights. In a competitive scene she can most certainly fit into a draft. She simply needs to be with the right heroes, and given the ability to farm her early items. I would compare her to an ursa in the sense that she can be kited, has no escape, but if you get in melee range, the enemy will be very unhappy.
That's a really poor comparison because Ursa's inherent fighting stats from his skills means he wins a man-fight against pretty much any hero at his strong levels even with a 2k gold investment in Blink. He also has burst damage, which is something that LC is woefully lacking in. She needs Duel stacks and additional items beyond Blink to be that strong. She needs more than just lockdown to set her up.
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i wasn't around to play her in dota1, so i know next to nothing about her, but my first impressions were that she could make a decent support. but after reading this thread no one even considers her going support. my question is what's preventing her from being picked as a support? and could she work in pro games as the 4 position jungler who transitions into a semi-carry (eg. doom, axe)?
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What do you guys think about boot choice? I can't decide if I like phase or treads better. Is it a situational pick between the two, or would one be considered "better?" Phase seems to have more synergy with her skills, both the attack speed active and the single hit passive, but treads has synergy with duel stacks and gives hp. Obviously phase has the mobility advantage. In which situation would you go which boots, or do you always go for one?
I tend to jungle her in solo queue. Say I have quelling blade/stout sheld/blink dagger at 9 minutes, does this scenario make either treads or phase a better choice? I'd argue that phase mobility isn't as useful if you have a blink dagger.
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I started out with treads, but the strength boost doesn't provide as much benefit as phase boots. The extra damage and speed boost means you can chase down fleeing heroes and gives a nice boost to your MoC lifesteal.
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Like others have mentioned, she isn't stronger than any other melee laners. Its probably comparable to solo abaddon. But again does her skill set justify giving her the lane? Without blink/SB she is useless except as an extra disable in ganks. After Blink/SB she can look for solo kills just like clockwerk, the difference being that the latter doesn't need any items to do so at all. If the enemy is constantly not alone, there's nothing much you can do.
As I said her ulti is a double edge sword. Essentially it disables her as well. Being in melee range means without bkb, you get 5v1 the moment you try to initiate. Outside of Ulti, she is no different from melee single target carries in that she gets kited eventually (wraith king high). Sven suffers from the same issue, but at least his stun is somewhat spammable and he has cleave.
In competitive the only thing she offers is a bkb disabler that can jungle. Then it makes you wonder why you don't pick Doom/axe instead for that purpose.
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I begin to think she can be played like abaddon. Her debuff is stronger than shield(even can remove track), her heal and nuke is better without hurting herself. Her passive is stronger than abad's and synergies well with her ulti.
Finally a BKB piercing, mute-like disable ulti which steals damage.
Add she has 320 start move speed.
I'll try to play her as 4-5 role more often.
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I think legion commander should be played very agressive, kinda like night stalker but all the time after you hit 6. Usually in dota you don't want to have even stats (or slightly negative) but with legion commander it is really good even if you trade 1:1 even if it is only for a support in the early/midgame, the extra damage is way worth it. 8 duel kills is usually over 100 damage and equal to a 4-5k gold item.
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The problem with a support Legion is that she roams incredibly poorly prior to 6. Effective supports typically need to roam to get xp due to the uselessness of pulling now. She can't effectively harass/zone the enemy offlaner. Her only real utility would be as part of a defensive trilane against an aggressive trilane. I guess you could pick her with intent to jungle, and upon finding an aggressive trilane could switch her to lane support to heal from harass and remove stuns etc, as she probably couldn't safely continue to farm jungle anyway. She's so ult-dependant that the game will really suck until she can obtain ult, though I suppose it would be ok for her to jungle for ult if she lacks it by some point in the early midgame (the way a CM or KOTL might jungle, etc).
I'm just skeptical about the notion that she can have a strong impact on game as a support prior to Blink in the midgame. I don't know if it's okay for her to just jungle for it instead of being with team during the crucial war for t1 towers period.
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On December 20 2013 19:07 Laserist wrote:
I begin to think she can be played like abaddon. Her debuff is stronger than shield(even can remove track), her heal and nuke is better without hurting herself. Her passive is stronger than abad's and synergies well with her ulti.
Finally a BKB piercing, mute-like disable ulti which steals damage.
Add she has 320 start move speed.
I'll try to play her as 4-5 role more often.
hmm, you do realize it that if you actually die under duel, you give dmg to the opponent? So if you play as a 4-5 position you basically give up using your ultimate as a disable, and would only use it when you are either
1) 100% certain that the opponent is out of position and your team can kill him.
2) right before he dies just to steal dmg.
obviously out of the two, 1) is the more useful one. Also his passive is useless as a support. Aba at least buffs every teammate attacking the same target, while Legion's passive buffs only himself, which as a support is not really significant.
Your other points are kinda valid, though their skillset is not completely comparable 1 on 1, but then again, very few two hero's are:
1) apothic shield is much better early game, if you are babysitting a farmer (on offlane for example), since it can actually damage enemies as well as protect your friend, or just mess up enemy lasthits while harassing them with it.
2) coil can also heal not just damage (and heal you as well when under borrowed time), giving aba another spell that protects his allies.
All in all, you loose a lot of utility of your ulti, and your passive. For that reason I wouldn't play him as a support.
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On December 20 2013 19:07 Laserist wrote:
I begin to think she can be played like abaddon. Her debuff is stronger than shield(even can remove track), her heal and nuke is better without hurting herself. Her passive is stronger than abad's and synergies well with her ulti.
Finally a BKB piercing, mute-like disable ulti which steals damage.
Add she has 320 start move speed.
I'll try to play her as 4-5 role more often.
Shield can remove track as well if I recall correctly. Regardless, Abaddon is more suitable for this role because he has both offensive and defensive uses with his spells, whereas support LC would have to use PTA defensively mainly, and OO is an average nuke.
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It's also not really fair to compare PtA and Aphotic Shield when Aphotic Shield has about half the CD of PtA.
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I don't see the value in intentionally being a 4/5 with her over just being a more active jungler (either with blink rush or something quicker to farm) and going from there. I suppose if you have cores in the offlane, mid, and safelane you could focus on the supportive end of things like pipe or idk even necro*. Things that lets you duel without dieing or contribute in some small way to the duel while also being more team focused. Kind of like a batrider jungle where he gives up the mid farm (or is picked out of it), but doesn't give up on his items. But overall that's just starting with a greedy lineup and dialing it back a bit.
Even then you're hopefully racking up +dmg and it's just going to sit there being under-utilized so that's less than good.
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On December 20 2013 09:20 NotYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2013 08:20 Ravensong170 wrote:
This. She is a versatile hero, that CAN carry, but isn't an AM or Luna or Gyro who can eventually 1 v 5 the enemy team. That isn't going to happen with her unless she gets 10+ duel kills before the 20 min mark (happened to me once :-D) . She is an adaptable hero that can disrupt a team, chase very well, and can disable certain heroes during teamfights. In a competitive scene she can most certainly fit into a draft. She simply needs to be with the right heroes, and given the ability to farm her early items. I would compare her to an ursa in the sense that she can be kited, has no escape, but if you get in melee range, the enemy will be very unhappy. That's a really poor comparison because Ursa's inherent fighting stats from his skills means he wins a man-fight against pretty much any hero at his strong levels even with a 2k gold investment in Blink. He also has burst damage, which is something that LC is woefully lacking in. She needs Duel stacks and additional items beyond Blink to be that strong. She needs more than just lockdown to set her up.
Well yea but that's not what I was comparing between her and ursa, I was comparing her need for a blink and the ability to disrupt a teamfight and her early game immobility and duel ganks are still super strong to secure kills, but I've said earlier in the thread that she will not win a duel solo with another hero without support/the enemy being low.
She is in CM in Dota1 (I believe) and can see her being picked in certain line-ups in pro scene when she is added to dota2. We'll see how the pros play her.
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On December 21 2013 02:18 NotYango wrote:
It's also not really fair to compare PtA and Aphotic Shield when Aphotic Shield has about half the CD of PtA.
Well i think it is not common to be disabled in lane in very short intervals.
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man I miss this look T___T
what kind of legion commander are you if you can't even ride a horse!!
![[image loading]](http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens19063764_1326766870front.jpg)
and the animation when ur dueling on top of a horse i mean hot damnn!!! that's awesome.
now she's just on foot ;(
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Played the first game of her in dota2, 7;30 dagger even when i faced a hellbear camp (i couldnt finish the camp rofl), so if i was given more luck on the neutral camp/MoC luck, i would have gotten the dagger earlier. So for pub play, I'd definitely recommend to play LC as a jungler.
The nuke is definitely a farming spell during or after mid game, I had serious mana problem even after i ferry mana pots since you are most certainly spending most your mana during jungling so it is defo not that useful <20mins (or even 30mins).
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On December 21 2013 21:38 BurningSera wrote:
Played the first game of her in dota2, 7;30 dagger even when i faced a hellbear camp (i couldnt finish the camp rofl), so if i was given more luck on the neutral camp/MoC luck, i would have gotten the dagger earlier. So for pub play, I'd definitely recommend to play LC as a jungler.
The nuke is definitely a farming spell during or after mid game, I had serious mana problem even after i ferry mana pots since you are most certainly spending most your mana during jungling so it is defo not that useful <20mins (or even 30mins).
When I was jungling with her, I didn't have that much mana problems since I started with 0-2-3-1 skill build, and then 2-2-4-1. I tried with going jungle and maxing first spell, but I didn't have any success, couldn't really farm other camps because I didn't have regen and I couldn't kill big stacked camp fast enough.
With 0-2-3 build you can do Ancients on lvl 5.
Also, what do you guys think about starting items for Jungle? Quelling Blade, Stout Shield and set of Tangos?
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Which support would you pick up with lc to roam? Im thinking lina should be fearsome for duel kills with lc.
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On December 22 2013 20:28 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Which support would you pick up with lc to roam? Im thinking lina should be fearsome for duel kills with lc.
I think shadow demon would be amazing, distruption to lock down before LC gets blink and extra damage from illusions during duel and soul catcher to have LC decimate them with her autoattacks.
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Apparently soul catcher is not removed by Duel, so that's a valid pairing. Another one would be Bane-- he can sleep them prior to Blink and then Enfeeble them so their attacks don't hurt Legion (but do proc her passive).
Wisp, Ogre, and Venge all have ways of helping Legion catch her target and ways to buff her combat abilities during the Duel.
Sven would be the manliest support duo and has a couple ways to help her get to her target as well as improved armour during the Duel.
A Silencer leveling Curse would be able to inflict a lot of damage without inhibiting their ability to hit Legion (thus procing her passive) and would also gain bonus damage from every Duel! Note that Last Word is useable too because the disarm is muted no matter when it comes into effect (but doesn't do as much damage per level as Curse).
While not as reliable, an Enchantress can help Legion catch them prior to Blink with her slow, as well as provide buffs via jungle creeps: such as +15 attack speed from Centaur, 30% bonus damage from Alpha Wolf, or the 12% movement speed buff from Kobold Task Master. Other creep effects aren't useful: the Wildkin Tornado, Ghost orb, Hellbear Smasher clap, and Ogre Priest ice armour all slow attack speed, which removes chances for Legion's passive to proc.
Treant Protector can cloak Legion, enabling her to initiate with surprise prior to Blink, or his Leech Seed can slow them, and his Living Armour is a license to go crazy.
Visage's Grave Chill can help Legion catch her target (hopefully the attack speed slow runs out soon), and Soul Assumption can help finish a target as his charges accumulate.
Ancient App goes well with every hero in the game, and Legion is no exception. Chilling Touch procs on her passive. Enough said.
While not usually run as a support, Bloodseeker could definitely help Legion catch and duel her targets.
Lycan would be a hillarious ally to Legion: able to buff her damage from anywhere on the map.
Venomancer can slow targets, letting Legion catch them, and dealing good damage during the Duel without reducing attack speed.
Witch Doctor's stun is unreliable but could possibly help Legion catch someone-- Duel then setting up an easy Maledict.
Not a support, but Invoker can help Legion catch her target with either Cold Snap or Ice Wall, then buff her with Alacrity, then provide a lot of damage with an easily landed Meteor during Duel.
Undying can't reliably set up Duel, but all of his skills can help Legion win the Duel, which most notably sets up an easy Tomb Stone.
Pugna's Decrepify can set up Duel, which removes the ghost debuff. He can then dissuade the enemy from casting things on Legion during the Duel with Nether Ward. If he has his ult he can provide a lot of damage during the Duel while the target can't flee, if unhindered.
CM has a couple ways to set up the Duel, and if she has ult can provide a lot of damage during the Duel if unhindered.
A Centaur with ult can easily set up Duel from anywhere on map, and if he's present his Double Edge can help nuke the target down.
Not usually a support, but Pudge can Hook targets to him for Legion to Duel, and will also gain bonus damage when Legion wins.
edit: Just noticed the thread title is missing an 's', can a mod fix?
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I played a couple games with Legion Commander today. Each time I jungled with a Stout Shield and Quelling Blade. The one thing I'm sure about is that you absolutely need a Blink Dagger to close the gap. Regarding boots, I prefer Power Treads' attack speed and hp over Phase Boots' damage and movement speed, but both boots are fine. Beyond boots and Blink Dagger, I'm really not sure. Items I tried out include Armlet of Mordiggian, Skull Basher, Blade Mail, Heart of Torrasque, Assault Cuirass and Heaven's Halberd. All of them performed decently but none were amazing, so I'm at a loss which items to get after the Blink Dagger, and in what order. Other (obvious) observations I made: Beside its main purpose, Duel is also useful as a damn long disable, and Press the Attack is actually a decent healing spell.
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Completely agree with that. Just one thing, don't build Skull Basher, it doesn't work in Duel as far as I know, other items are fine. BKB is important so you don't get focused down in Duel with spells, but if they are not disable/spell heavy, you can go for Armlet/Heaven's Halberd/Assault Cuirass/Heart, all works well depending on what do you need.
People are saying that Shadowblade is really good item on her in pubs, I tried it and I don't know, not really fan of that item after the nerf for any hero, and not just her.
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I think treads is a waste-- you get free attack speed by getting hit (tanking creep waves are the source of your strength), so turning that max attack speed into extra phase-damage is a big deal. In general Phase Blink BKB/Blademail (depending on what their team has) AC Heart is the way to go.
Mjolnir is decent for attack speed if someone else on the team is making an AC, though you usually still need a source of armour. If you can't make AC I think Shiva's could actually be decent (though things that decrease the enemy's attack speed are not usually good for Legion since she likes being hit, but as long as you have enough other things hitting you while you Duel it should be ok).
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On December 23 2013 13:04 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think treads is a waste-- you get free attack speed by getting hit (tanking creep waves are the source of your strength), so turning that max attack speed into extra phase-damage is a big deal. In general Phase Blink BKB/Blademail (depending on what their team has) AC Heart is the way to go.
Mjolnir is decent for attack speed if someone else on the team is making an AC, though you usually still need a source of armour. If you can't make AC I think Shiva's could actually be decent (though things that decrease the enemy's attack speed are not usually good for Legion since she likes being hit, but as long as you have enough other things hitting you while you Duel it should be ok).
Why do you dismiss treads as an option while considering attack speed options in the very next paragraph? Treads provide a lot of attack speed for their cost. Sure, the bonus damage from phase is good, but it's not like it's distinctly better than treads in every scenario.
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From my experience, Legion has a hard time staying on people after Duels, so you really need the Phase mobility.
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On December 23 2013 16:45 GtC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 13:04 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think treads is a waste-- you get free attack speed by getting hit (tanking creep waves are the source of your strength), so turning that max attack speed into extra phase-damage is a big deal. In general Phase Blink BKB/Blademail (depending on what their team has) AC Heart is the way to go.
Mjolnir is decent for attack speed if someone else on the team is making an AC, though you usually still need a source of armour. If you can't make AC I think Shiva's could actually be decent (though things that decrease the enemy's attack speed are not usually good for Legion since she likes being hit, but as long as you have enough other things hitting you while you Duel it should be ok). Why do you dismiss treads as an option while considering attack speed options in the very next paragraph? Treads provide a lot of attack speed for their cost. Sure, the bonus damage from phase is good, but it's not like it's distinctly better than treads in every scenario.
Because my paragraph deals with different scenarios over the course of the game. Early game is all about maximizing your first few Duels so you start to snowball. Midgame is about augmenting your advantage by building durability and attack speed to get the most out of your bonus damage. Lategame is where you cement your lead by making yourself durable in full teamfights. Phase Blink lets you kill stuff early. BKB AC make you more durable to magic and physical damage. Heart lets you fight everything, longer. Because of the way the hero works you could probably in many scenarios get away with only building damage and counting on passive procs for dps and sustainability, but that would be cheesing. If you started with treads your first few Duel ganks probably wouldn't be as strong unless your team was really well-suited for rotating every 50s to gank with you and had the advantage to get the map control to freely do that. The more your team commits to help you win duels the more space they give the other team to get ahead through other means.
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Jungle into phaseboots and magic stick. 4/1/2/1 skill build. Blink is absolute core on her. After that bkb and AC/Daed/Deso.
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On December 24 2013 20:45 Emnjay808 wrote:
Jungle into phaseboots and magic stick. 4/1/2/1 skill build. Blink is absolute core on her. After that bkb and AC/Daed/Deso.
I tried Jungling with first spell, and I found 0-2-3-0 a lot better just because you can kill Ancients on level 5 with Treads/Phase and nothing else, and you got a lot more exp and gold from them.
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Anyone ever consider getting linkens and bkb on her? To me it seems her limiting factor is tankiness and spell susceptibility. Her late game damage is pretty strong as it is (unless your duel ganks have all failed) and while additional damage isn't necessarily a bad thing, it does not seem to be the most efficient.
Was thinking something like phase/treads -> blink -> bkb/linken -> linken/bkb -> ac/heart
grabbing situational items as needed of course
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On December 25 2013 01:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 20:45 Emnjay808 wrote:
Jungle into phaseboots and magic stick. 4/1/2/1 skill build. Blink is absolute core on her. After that bkb and AC/Daed/Deso. I tried Jungling with first spell, and I found 0-2-3-0 a lot better just because you can kill Ancients on level 5 with Treads/Phase and nothing else, and you got a lot more exp and gold from them.
Err... skill build for jungling as follows: 0/0/1/0, 0/1/1/0, 0/1/2/0, 1/1/2/0, 2/1/2/0... 4/1/2/1.
You can jungle with lvl 2 E good enough with a stout/quelling/phaseboots. Double stack all hardcamps and focus w/e Centaur or Wildkin to remove their creep buff for mitigation. Maxing Overwhelming Odds asap is so important. Its a 200+X aoe nuke that gifts you haste, means you're instantly a threat if they try to push a tower with a big creep wave. Once you get blink you should just spam overwhelming odds and looking for blink+duel opportunities.
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You can't afford to spam her nuke-- you have to have 260 mana at all times to buff -> blink -> ult. There's no doubt that her nuke is situationally strong, but most of the time there won't be an enemy sitting in the creep wave for you to nuke, and you can clear creep waves pretty quickly as is by tanking them and procing passive. Furthermore, if they were inside a big creep wave and you nuked them you might actually prevent yourself from having the dps to kill them during the Duel duration by having eliminated the creeps-- and tanking creeps makes you proc your passive which is the bulk of your dps.
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When you have a fresh blink, ur E is not the one that will kill ur Duel target. With magic stick against a 5 man push, spamming Overwhelming Odds is more than doable. I guess I should clarify what I mean by spam: when the wave is especially huge or when u can catch 3+ guys in a radius to chunk their health. Not spamming like Batrider tar.
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I see a lot of ppl been focusing on fresh Blink VS SB + Jungling VS safe laning, but without realizing her actual role
in game, there are few points I need to clarify as only a handful of players here ACTUALLY know what she can do/can't
do:
1. OO is a pretty effective lane/rune control spell, even against ranged mid such as OD/viper, some complained its
hard to land the spell on ranged heroes, but personally I think the range heroes have to worry more being nuked if
they try to attack me(kiting). Its up how well you kite the ranged mid. Not to mentioned that its spammable with
merely 100 mana cost with Soul Ring + stout shield combo(she doesn't even need bottle)
2. Most ppl here claimed MoC its better than PtA. In jungling yea it might,
but this is how MoC works:
- MoC have 1.2 sec cd and 0.5 sec life steal if activated(1-2 hit if normal items, 3 hit extra with good ASPD)
- MoC is only activated during LC is attacking(valid actual attack animation from beginning till ending)
- MoC heal is 80% at level 4 (Its 80% every hit X 3 extra hit with better ASPD = 240% of damage healed)
- Based on how it works, you can actually abuse its mechanism to have numerous MoC procs when NC(align your attack animation with NC attack timing)
- THUS, faster attack speed is absolutely more important than damage item for proc'ing MoC
On the other hand, this is how PtA works:
- 300 hp and 120 ASPD at lvl 4(well no one will max it first anyway)
- Debuff the ally hero or self (sort of semi aphotic but its better)
- This skill is mostly use before and after duel, either to better damage output, or recover super fast after tanking
a lot of damage(with a certain item which I will mention it later), and OCCASIONALLY, saving teammates' ass.
- Its audio sound serves as a signal to other dps carry/core that, they may actually PRESS the ATTACK without
retreating despite low hp. 120 ASPD boost on dpser(with lifesteal items) is no kidding.
- Most important is, its UNDISPELLABLE from regular hero attacks.
- PtA got 2 major downsides which is: long cast animation sux, and long cooldown to be a healing spell.
- MoC always max last with lvl 1 hanging before lvl 6, because it needs the ASPD and HP to procs, NOT DAMAGE items.
3. Lastly the ultimate, Duel, this is one make LC damage snowballs a lot similar like Pudge with Flesh Heap, this is
where it makes a GOOD LC player or a BAD one.
Let me elaborate further on what DUEL CAN'T DO, despite everyone is going for the Blink/SB duel:
- Most bad LC play, treated DUEL as batrider's LASSO, which is blink Duel, thats suicide(Batrider can force
staff/Napalm/Firefly/Dagon/whatever shit, LC can't)
- Most bad LC duelling with a fresh Dagger/SB, most likely will ended up dead(whether they WIN the duel or not), DUE
to no HP items to sustain the tanking, unless opposite team is pretty weak. 8 out 10 fresh blink/SB LC play ended up
lose this way(I watch 10+ LC games daily) after gaining 5-6 duel kills charge and stop there.
- Its not that Blink duel is very BAD, its just most ppl using it a VERY WRONG way, BLINK duel is only viable after at
least 7-8 duel stacks(14X7=98 damage gained), to finish off supports/knocking hp down fast enough to further snowballing, LC's first 5-7 duel stacks is way easier to gain thru GANK kills.
What DUEL can DO(first 5-7 stacks):
- Tons of you guys might be asking since I literally trashed the groups which support a fresh SB/blink, by challenging
me how should I snowball LC's damage thru duel?
- My point: Duel's 5 sec disable always come first, the damage stacks come next(its a plus only without sacrificing yourself)
- DO NOT COMPARE IT WITH FLAMING LASSO, instead it behaves like PUDGE'S DISMEMBER without channeling OR AXE's CULLING BLADE without risking KSing teammates(whoever kills, you still gain the stacks)
- Generally there is 2 situation you can really apply the duel:
(1st) target the red hp heroes when ganking, means you duel against a hero which is a guaranteed kills(left 1 more nukes to finish off), instantly get the stacks and retreat.
(2nd) Target the most annoying caster fast with OO movement speed bonus and tank the damage without hoping to WIN the duel, NOR dying from the duel
- Compare LC to Pudge dismember/Axe Culling/Other similar spell behaviour:
Does dismember need SB/blink? Nope. Thus Duel = Dismember
Does dismember always used for initiate? Nope. Thus Duel = Dismember
Does dismember required Pudge and Victim hold in place for seconds? Yes. Thus Duel = Dismember
Does Duel interruptible like Dismember? Nope, thus Duel WIN dismember at this point.
Does Duel require your own kills to stack like Culling blade? Nope, Duel wins Culling blade without own kills and does
not hinder other teammates snowballing.
Does Duel stacks last only temporarily like Culling Blade/Slark's essence shift? Nope, Duel wins again.
Does Duel stacks counterable by BKB such as OD/Silencer stacks? Nope, Duel wins again.
Q: Then without SB/Blink, how you gonna build LC?
- My point: Tanking ability + Chasing power + life steal
- My items: Soul ring + stout shield ==> Treads + Drum(with a cloak and orb of venom if needed) ==> SNY + Helm of D
==> satanic/Mjolnir
Q: Why not BKB as tanking item? since it makes LC unstoppable on duelling
- LC duel is either gain the stacks without risk, or attracting opposite team attention to cover own teammates, BKB is
defeating the purpose since opposite nukers/caster will focus on your teammates, as you will be no longer a threat for
5 secs and a so-so dpser after duel, provided IF they are decent team.
-Furthermore, BKB is not really a cost effective items for any of LC skills. BKB is only needed at late game for heavy
disable/uninterruptible further stacks with already high damage gain.
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Blink is primarily used for opportunity duels. You dont gung ho like batrider lasso unless you're incredibly decked out or know your team can follow up properly.
Also, idk how anyone can dismiss BKB as a cost effective item for LC. Especially when you try to justify SnY and Drums over it.
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On December 26 2013 19:11 Emnjay808 wrote:
Blink is primarily used for opportunity duels. You dont gung ho like batrider lasso unless you're incredibly decked out or know your team can follow up properly.
Also, idk how anyone can dismiss BKB as a cost effective item for LC. Especially when you try to justify SnY and Drums over it.
If blink is for opportunity duel, its not really wise to rush a fresh blink then. There are other better items for LC to contribute in teamfights and not dying in duels.
BKB generally divert the attention from LC to other teammates, thats way different from hard carry with BKB, as LC duel with BKB mid game, her damage is just not enough to make any difference on her target.
If I am the enemy team, and I saw LC bkb and duel 1 of my teammates, I rather to protect my teammate or simply nuke the rest. Since wiping the rest is far more easier than right-clicking the LC which procs more MoC.
And mind your reading, I only dismiss BKB as mid game item not being cost-efficient, BKB is good when you have at least 7-8 stacks of duel damage. Even sange + drum + orb of venom is far better than having 10- 7 sec doing nothing at all but so-so dps without at least 7-8 stacks.
Legion commander should focus more on timing of dispel debufff and OO the groups and duel only those less than half hp while capable to withstand punishment + attracting enemy attention during early-mid to mid game. Her stats is not the type which really can cover a blink dagger + bkb before getting any HP + ASPD items.
Midgame LC should worry more about how to survive when she won the duel and after. HP + Lifesteal with good aspd is what LC need since she never having any damage snowballing issues.
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Ive noticed that too. Although there is the 1.2 second cooldown I see a lot more procs when AS is high or maybe i just think its higher because of the chaos.
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On December 26 2013 21:36 reyavalon wrote:
If blink is for opportunity duel, its not really wise to rush a fresh blink then. There are other better items for LC to contribute in teamfights and not dying in duels.
You're too concerned about teamfighting at a stage of the game that is very typically gank-focused.
Blink Dagger can be finished at around 7 minutes. In most pub games, this is well before lanes break, and is still during the phase of the game where ganking directs the flow of the game. The ability to present a much larger gank threat due to Blink is why LC needs the item.
LC's baseline kit is not very good for teamfighting on it's own. She has an unreliable nuke, mediocre burst damage, long cooldowns, and only one disable which you cannot use all that freely in teamfights. Trying to focus on teamfighting from the get-go when it's not her strength is jumping the gun. She NEEDS to be successful with ganks in the early stages of the game before lanes break in order to develop enough to have a good presence in teamfights. It's not worth it to sacrifice your early ganking power the way you are suggesting.
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Would getting an early halberd be optimal?
Like blink/shadowblade first item then halberd and then everything else
You could pop the disarm and go right into a duel even if youre low health they wouldnt be able to attack and you could bait people into giving you duel damage.
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On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do...
It doesn't trigger multiple times, which is something most people misunderstand. MoC gives you a buff for .5 seconds, and it is possible to hit an enemy 2-3 times during this buff duration. MoC can only proc ONCE every 1.2 seconds. But if at level one you proc MoC during LC's frontswing, you will strike twice during the buff. Later in the game with AS you can get a third hit in if you proc during frontswing and will get 2 hits in on all other procs.
Also pro-tip. DO NOT GET HEAVEN"S HALBERD ON LC. Simply becasue you WANT to be attack during the duel, since the MoC procs on being attacked. HH is simply not an effective item on LC especially early in the game. She does much better with other items.
I personally would only get a HH in situations where I am the three role and I have my other core items and a good amount of duel stacks.
Also, to the dude saying blink needs to have 7 duel stacks to be useful, is wrong. Blink duel in early game is extremely strong when used correctly, and you should only max OO first when in the mid lane. Having a 0/2/3/1 build with a blink at the 7 min mark coming out of the jungle will allow you to gank the enemy offlane quite effectively. if you cast PtA before hand you can count on getting at least one MoC proc, and PtA gives you a AS buff and the other heroes in lane should be able to provide the needed damage. its an item all about snowball. And squishy heroes will die in the lvl 1 duel duration from full health if you hvae PtA up and get a couple MoC procs.
OO is simply not needed unless you are in the mid lane
Too each his own, but I believe that soul ring drums with max OO is ineffective where a Blink Armlet is a stronger build. (Unless mid, which you will get a bottle, no need for soul ring and go 4/1/1/1 into drums, blink)
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Does anyone else find themselves low on mana a lot, especially with the blink dagger? Is it crazy to get perseverance in the mid game and linkens late?
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On December 27 2013 03:06 Mb79584 wrote:
Would getting an early halberd be optimal?
Like blink/shadowblade first item then halberd and then everything else
You could pop the disarm and go right into a duel even if youre low health they wouldnt be able to attack and you could bait people into giving you duel damage.
Duel disables attack-prevention effects. It also disables Evasion on both participants.
Halberd is only really good lategame when you need the Halberd as an efficient fighting item OUTSIDE of Duel. It's ineffective in Duel.
On December 27 2013 06:46 alQahira wrote:
Does anyone else find themselves low on mana a lot, especially with the blink dagger? Is it crazy to get perseverance in the mid game and linkens late?
Yes it is.
Even if you need mana, you shouldn't be investing so heavily toward a regen item. There are a few good mana items that can be good at much better economy (Bottle, Drums, Wand, etc.).
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I think Blink rush is necessary because while true you can't just Blink Duel anyone, the Blink lets you capitalize on the opportunities you do come across. This requires you to be actively roaming/pushing. Find a lane with a good nuker or early damage dealer and either stay behind him or push with him. If too few people show up to stop the push the two (or however many there are) of you get a free kill for bonus damage. Without Blink the nuker can't kill them and you can't Duel them. You have two objectives following a Duel (provided you're alive, which you should be): 1. get mana; 2. roam to get in position for your next Duel. The latter could be as simple as continuing to push the lane you're in to force another reaction. Often it involves walking or TPing to another lane though, or wandering through someone's jungle, etc. The Blink lets you Duel anyone who's vulnerable the moment you see them-- denying their teammates the time to TP or react. If someone's out of position and/or low hp and you just walk at them they'll back off or call their team for help. If you just Blink Duel they don't have the time to do that. Now sure, not everyone you run into will be Duelable, but some will be, and those are the opportunities Blink lets you exploit. Being a good Legion is all about finding Duels, however that works out. If you're farming some other item you aren't Dueling or getting position for the next Duel-- you guarantee to miss every single possible opportunity.
BKB uses the same reasoning: there are Duels you can't win without BKB and Duels that you can win (and survive) with BKB. Not every teamfight or gank requires it and the ones that do aren't all winnable, but you increase the number of possible scenarios you can effectively Duel in.
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On December 27 2013 08:37 NotYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 03:06 Mb79584 wrote:
Would getting an early halberd be optimal?
Like blink/shadowblade first item then halberd and then everything else
You could pop the disarm and go right into a duel even if youre low health they wouldnt be able to attack and you could bait people into giving you duel damage. Duel disables attack-prevention effects. It also disables Evasion on both participants. Halberd is only really good lategame when you need the Halberd as an efficient fighting item OUTSIDE of Duel.
Damn, thanks for the info. I assume thats for sheep an stun too?
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No, those function as normal. Only attack-prevention effects (Disarm, Ethereal state) are disabled.
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That list isn't entirely correct because it assumes that Duel and Doom are functionally identical when they actually aren't.
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Ahhhh so abyssal would work popping it and immediately dueling then
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Yeah but you cant bash during duel so.... its kind of bad too.
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Oh damn can you crit? Or does it not allow procs at all. Actually does it even let in orb effects??
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no thats why people build armor and attack speed  oh blademail works during duel if you are really looking for items to solo win duels but im not a fan really
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Im pretty sure ive seen bash working during duel, might be not working as intended?
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Not from either of the people dueling. any outside source can stun ofc
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Bash doesn't work in duel. In terms of items with on-attack effects that work in duel, deso and mael are fair bets. Legion shouldnt really be itemising to solo kill anyway, though.
In terms of what works; oov, deso and skadi all apply in duel. Mael/mjoll procs also occur. Bashes and crits definitely do not function.
Also I think toggled orbs are still bugged, so don't duel od/silencer without a bkb or you're in for a bad time.
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On December 27 2013 04:22 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 02:05 konadora wrote:
one big question: does moment of courage trigger many times over the course it is activated, like does it depend on your attack speed? because i feel like the faster i hit, the more counter-hits i do... It doesn't trigger multiple times, which is something most people misunderstand. MoC gives you a buff for .5 seconds, and it is possible to hit an enemy 2-3 times during this buff duration. MoC can only proc ONCE every 1.2 seconds. But if at level one you proc MoC during LC's frontswing, you will strike twice during the buff. Later in the game with AS you can get a third hit in if you proc during frontswing and will get 2 hits in on all other procs. Also pro-tip. DO NOT GET HEAVEN"S HALBERD ON LC. Simply becasue you WANT to be attack during the duel, since the MoC procs on being attacked. HH is simply not an effective item on LC especially early in the game. She does much better with other items. I personally would only get a HH in situations where I am the three role and I have my other core items and a good amount of duel stacks. Also, to the dude saying blink needs to have 7 duel stacks to be useful, is wrong. Blink duel in early game is extremely strong when used correctly, and you should only max OO first when in the mid lane. Having a 0/2/3/1 build with a blink at the 7 min mark coming out of the jungle will allow you to gank the enemy offlane quite effectively. if you cast PtA before hand you can count on getting at least one MoC proc, and PtA gives you a AS buff and the other heroes in lane should be able to provide the needed damage. its an item all about snowball. And squishy heroes will die in the lvl 1 duel duration from full health if you hvae PtA up and get a couple MoC procs. OO is simply not needed unless you are in the mid lane Too each his own, but I believe that soul ring drums with max OO is ineffective where a Blink Armlet is a stronger build. (Unless mid, which you will get a bottle, no need for soul ring and go 4/1/1/1 into drums, blink)
On December 27 2013 01:40 NotYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 21:36 reyavalon wrote:
If blink is for opportunity duel, its not really wise to rush a fresh blink then. There are other better items for LC to contribute in teamfights and not dying in duels.
You're too concerned about teamfighting at a stage of the game that is very typically gank-focused. Blink Dagger can be finished at around 7 minutes. In most pub games, this is well before lanes break, and is still during the phase of the game where ganking directs the flow of the game. The ability to present a much larger gank threat due to Blink is why LC needs the item. LC's baseline kit is not very good for teamfighting on it's own. She has an unreliable nuke, mediocre burst damage, long cooldowns, and only one disable which you cannot use all that freely in teamfights. Trying to focus on teamfighting from the get-go when it's not her strength is jumping the gun. She NEEDS to be successful with ganks in the early stages of the game before lanes break in order to develop enough to have a good presence in teamfights. It's not worth it to sacrifice your early ganking power the way you are suggesting.
To the dudes who can easily farm a blink under 7 mins(konadora) and another one saying my way is WRONG(@Ravensong170):
Well, if you mention any low-level pubs, of course blink duel with opportunity works on solo individual, but not really works in a decent 5-men pubs and they can easily bait and make your blink LC feeding badly.
//Having a 0/2/3/1 build with a blink at the 7 min mark coming out of the jungle will allow you to gank the enemy offlane quite effectively. if you cast PtA before hand you can count on getting at least one MoC proc, and PtA gives you a AS buff and the other heroes in lane should be able to provide the needed damage. its an item all about snowball. And squishy heroes will die in the lvl 1 duel duration from full health if you hvae PtA up and get a couple MoC procs. //
Above situation far too ideal from my experience. Your method works only on pretty low-level play which teammates doesnt cover for each other, no ward vision, and always-solo player. You totally forgot about how easily it takes to counter LC duel aren't ya?
In higher level pubs play, the often outcome is, your blink-duel LC die after duel(whether you won or not), and end up insufficient income but continue NC since your LC not really have enough items to participate in ganking, and LC perform poor in carry role at late game. And if LC still NCing after 10-15 mins mark is really bad for team.
@Ravensong170
Don't be so anxious to differ without reading my post full.
1. I am not saying blink is bad for duelling, BUT the blink duel is BAD if you can't survive without any basic core items after gaining that stacks, you lose gold and exp for that damage stacking. Same applies to BKB duelling too. (@konadora)
2. The purpose of LC NCing is to provide a lane for another core while LC is working towards semi tank and utility items, compare to blink, I find even forcestaff works better on LC if you want to chase for duelling stacks. LC NCing is not really about farming some higher tier items for her.
3. Even farming Hand of Midas is better than blink on LC cause it ensure LC can farm his basic core items in short time and contribute for team.
4. Compare the the feasbility on farming soul ring + drum versus blink + armlet in term of cost, time and synergy for team. LC is not really an uber carry anyway. 2.6 STR growth is not really a good stat for hero which her skills is attracting all the attention without any basic core for survival. Not even Pudge can survive that.
Come on everyone, don't over focus on how LC skills unreliable, long CD, no burst damage etc and put him into farming role instead, Try to think how LC can contribute in teamfights while gaining damage stacks. Her skill set is not really about carrying, but sustaining while snowballing.
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Thanks that helps a lot ill also experiment in game
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On December 27 2013 08:38 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think Blink rush is necessary because while true you can't just Blink Duel anyone, the Blink lets you capitalize on the opportunities you do come across. This requires you to be actively roaming/pushing. Find a lane with a good nuker or early damage dealer and either stay behind him or push with him. If too few people show up to stop the push the two (or however many there are) of you get a free kill for bonus damage. Without Blink the nuker can't kill them and you can't Duel them. You have two objectives following a Duel (provided you're alive, which you should be): 1. get mana; 2. roam to get in position for your next Duel. The latter could be as simple as continuing to push the lane you're in to force another reaction. Often it involves walking or TPing to another lane though, or wandering through someone's jungle, etc. The Blink lets you Duel anyone who's vulnerable the moment you see them-- denying their teammates the time to TP or react. If someone's out of position and/or low hp and you just walk at them they'll back off or call their team for help. If you just Blink Duel they don't have the time to do that. Now sure, not everyone you run into will be Duelable, but some will be, and those are the opportunities Blink lets you exploit. Being a good Legion is all about finding Duels, however that works out. If you're farming some other item you aren't Dueling or getting position for the next Duel-- you guarantee to miss every single possible opportunity.
BKB uses the same reasoning: there are Duels you can't win without BKB and Duels that you can win (and survive) with BKB. Not every teamfight or gank requires it and the ones that do aren't all winnable, but you increase the number of possible scenarios you can effectively Duel in.
Try not to rely on Duel damage stacks too much and build items around Duel, its so easy to counter duel though. There is so much more LC can do outside of Duel.
The way you using Blink-duel and situation to depict, is so easy to exploit and bait your duel.
I really don't want to list out the methods how to counter duel easily while wiping the rest of the blink LC team by exploiting the nature of blink/BKB Duel.
Of course its works in lower level pubs which everyone is not really care about each other.
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Apparently what essentially became the standard over the course of a year in DotA 1 in the highest-level Chinese pubs "only works in low level pubs".
rofl
If you don't get the Duel snowball rolling, there's simply nothing that this hero does that's really impressive. The only exceptional part of the hero is how she snowballs with Duel in the first place.
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On December 27 2013 12:10 NotYango wrote:
Apparently what essentially became the standard over the course of a year in DotA 1 in the highest-level Chinese pubs "only works in low level pubs".
rofl
If you don't get the Duel snowball rolling, there's simply nothing that this hero does that's really impressive. The only exceptional part of the hero is how she snowballs with Duel in the first place.
Haha thats warcraft 3 for you
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@konadora,
you need a blink/lothars to get in close to duel, your duel doesn't really have the biggest range to initiate. you can lane if you can safelane or mid with her. but often you can free up space for other hero's to get exp/farm if you go jungle, and she is really good at jungling. a stack of tango's, quelling blade and stout shield is all you need without ever going to base. but in a coordinated teamgame, she is best put in safelane so she can farm really fast and focus more on damage instead of survivability ( i.e. maxing different skills )
@logo
maybe the first and second duel you won't get too many counter attacks, but once you get into teamfights more and more, you get hit by all hero's not just 1 so then higher level moc really shines.
i've been going threads, blink blademail, then towards heart. i personally think phase is sub optimal, because thread switching is really good on her. also the str you get from threads result into damage+hp (which phase don't give), so it's not a 24 damage difference but way less. the extra attack speed is still usefull, you naturally build damage from your duels, so every attack speed you get makes your dps skyrocket. the hero is really usefull outside duels if you get attack speed
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I'm not sure why people say shadowblade is not good on Legion. I think people forget that before legion can tank carries she is first and foremost a SUPPORT KILLER. The shadowblade allows you to roam effectively and get those support kills or kill any stragglers you catch out of the "pack". I have played over 50 games with legion now and 1 constant that I have found is that HoD is AMAZING on Legion. The lifesteal stacks with the passive and it works with Mjollnir except for when Mjollnir chains. People will say that damage is more important than attack speed with legion but I disagree with that. The faster you hit the fasterthe duel is over and the faster you get the bonus dmg.
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Looks like I wasted my breath here, after all, LC haven put into CM mode yet... all ppl here is all about shadow/blinkDagger OPPORTUNISTIc Dueler...
Summary of my point for LC:
Tank => get stacks => survive and further contribute damage again.
Opportunistic Duels is way too ideal in CM mode/5v5 team match(allpick or not).
Out of 10 games in average, 9 games of Blink/SB LC always lose due to no hp/exp/gold and died after duel(winner or not), left 1 games which is overfed OR 4v5 which LC is unnecessary.
But someone did point out 1 items which is almost a must for sustaining the hp in teamfights => which is HoD lifeleech
Guess I am the only minority here.
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On December 29 2013 02:57 reyavalon wrote:
Looks like I wasted my breath here, after all, LC haven put into CM mode yet... all ppl here is all about shadow/blinkDagger OPPORTUNISTIc Dueler...
Summary of my point for LC:
Tank => get stacks => survive and further contribute damage again.
Opportunistic Duels is way too ideal in CM mode/5v5 team match(allpick or not).
Out of 10 games in average, 9 games of Blink/SB LC always lose due to no hp/exp/gold and died after duel(winner or not), left 1 games which is overfed OR 4v5 which LC is unnecessary.
But someone did point out 1 items which is almost a must for sustaining the hp in teamfights => which is HoD lifeleech
Guess I am the only minority here.
Lifeleech is aweful without damage and damage resistance.
You're talking about "Soul ring + drums versus blink + armlet" when both are awful as hell.
-Jungle
--->Blink
-Get duel stacks (since you synergize insanely well with heroes that have high damage and sometimes lack just a bit of cc for solo kills - which is stuff that gets played in pubs a lot)
--->BKB
-During teamfights use your BKB uptime as a strong BKB piercing disable or to take out high priority squishy targets.
--->AC
-Enjoy being a badass.
Shadowblade is a reasonable substitute for Blink, you're increasing your solo ganking power but you weaken your ability in teamfights later on. Basically if you feel the need for the extra damage from Lothars it's a shitty game to be LC in the first place since the damage from your team and/or gank opportunities seem to be lacking.
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United States47024 Posts
reyavalon I have no idea why you think it's impossible to execute ganks in the 6-10 minute range without getting counter-killed. Successful ganks of this nature happen all the time even in professional play. It's entirely a matter of execution and knowing where supports are on the map. Duel lasts 4 seconds, TP channels are 3. It's simply not possible for supports to counter-gank a proper Duel gank unless they already TPed down beforehand. In which case, 1) you are drawing their supports away from other parts of the map, and 2) you should be able to evaluate their map movement based on where they are not.
Obviously don't dive into obvious counter-ganks, but honestly, supports don't have perfect vision and can't be everywhere at once. You WILL get successful ganks if you know how to look for them.
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On December 29 2013 03:26 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 02:57 reyavalon wrote:
Looks like I wasted my breath here, after all, LC haven put into CM mode yet... all ppl here is all about shadow/blinkDagger OPPORTUNISTIc Dueler...
Summary of my point for LC:
Tank => get stacks => survive and further contribute damage again.
Opportunistic Duels is way too ideal in CM mode/5v5 team match(allpick or not).
Out of 10 games in average, 9 games of Blink/SB LC always lose due to no hp/exp/gold and died after duel(winner or not), left 1 games which is overfed OR 4v5 which LC is unnecessary.
But someone did point out 1 items which is almost a must for sustaining the hp in teamfights => which is HoD lifeleech
Guess I am the only minority here. Lifeleech is aweful without damage and damage resistance. You're talking about "Soul ring + drums versus blink + armlet" when both are awful as hell. -Jungle --->Blink -Get duel stacks (since you synergize insanely well with heroes that have high damage and sometimes lack just a bit of cc for solo kills - which is stuff that gets played in pubs a lot) --->BKB -During teamfights use your BKB uptime as a strong BKB piercing disable or to take out high priority squishy targets. --->AC -Enjoy being a badass. Shadowblade is a reasonable substitute for Blink, you're increasing your solo ganking power but you weaken your ability in teamfights later on. Basically if you feel the need for the extra damage from Lothars it's a shitty game to be LC in the first place since the damage from your team and/or gank opportunities seem to be lacking.
You have totally no idea how MoC works. LC need hp capacity + ASPD to works with MoC, since she never having any damage issue from beginning.
You guys all talking about damage stacks again, none of you talking how to survive from nukes when dueling.
blink + bkb + AC => how mcuh gold needed? where is your basic core items? Since LC need to snowball from beginning? Any carry fares a lot better than LC when it comes to these 3 items as core. The side effect of 4 sec BKB on LC is more severe than any Carry. Think about it.
On December 29 2013 03:33 TheYango wrote:
reyavalon I have no idea why you think it's impossible to execute ganks in the 6-10 minute range without getting counter-killed. Successful ganks of this nature happen all the time even in professional play. It's entirely a matter of execution and knowing where supports are on the map. Duel lasts 4 seconds, TP channels are 3. It's simply not possible for supports to counter-gank a proper Duel gank unless they already TPed down beforehand. In which case, 1) you are drawing their supports away from other parts of the map, and 2) you should be able to evaluate their map movement based on where they are not.
Obviously don't dive into obvious counter-ganks, but honestly, supports don't have perfect vision and can't be everywhere at once. You WILL get successful ganks if you know how to look for them.
Do you actually read my posts or just simply take parts of it starting to take the jump?
Gank in 6-10 mins without getting counter killed is alright with me, but execute ganks with blink daggers, within 10 mins, thats the problem. blink/SB LC have simply no other usage and no HP to sustain the ganks.
Good team even in all pick,
1. their supports never alone.
2. their carries/core never insensitive when there are more than 2 heroes disappear on mini-maps.
3. They never TPing on the towers which under opposite heroes vision.
4. Proper Duel is still easily counterable.
5. When duelling, LC is very vulnerable to AOE disable and AOE damage, which is why LC need to tank quite a bit. and thats approach not really recommended from my side, my point is TANK before Duel, not during Duel.
6. Those 2 points and last paragraph you mentioned, well I can say that, you are optimistic and assuming that, your supports and your ganks is better than their side, but I prefer to assume opposite team are good in roaming and ganking.
During a proper teamfights, blink/SB LC always dies after duel(winner or not) due to not enough hp, you getting that 10/14/18 damage with a huge price of exp and gold.
a LC survived a duel with red hp, and flee from fights, not really useful for team at all.
a LC got her stacks after a Duel but DIED and lose exp and gold, not really useful for team at all.
Whats LC's job is, LC snowballs her damage when survive from nukes before/after Duel with plenty of hp, and protect their teammates.
You might wonder why I hate blink dagger/SB on LC so much, The survivability having soul ring + tread + even bracer with cloak, its much better than blink duel damage stacks, during early-to-mid, given the amount of gold spent and the ease of building these items.
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Blink within 6-8 minutes. You then proceed to aim for ganks whenever you have your ult up, get free damage and casually farm the jungle during downtime. It's not exactly hard to have Treads/Blink/BKB done when teamfights start to break out, especially in pubs.
You're making arguments about how you can't get kills against "good teams even in all pick" when no one ever talks about solo kills. You grab whoever the fuck has burst on your team and/or controls tempo usually and go kill shit with them. Prime examples being things like QoP/TA/Storm/Clock who all enjoy that "little extra" in terms of damage and cc to kill even major targets. During downtime you're always off the map so that's not even an issue.
Who the hell cares about AoE disables and AoE nukes during a 2n1 or even better scenarios? Absolute worst case you... take damage from autoattacks during duel and after 3s someone shows up to help the guy that's being banged by your cc+autos and your buddies burst+autos.
By the time AoE stuff is relevant and full 5n5 fights can break out you have a BKB for those which means proper usage of Duel won't get you randomly killed. LC HAS to snowball off ganks to be a relevant solo kill threat later down the road.
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On December 29 2013 12:56 r.Evo wrote:
Blink within 6-8 minutes. You then proceed to aim for ganks whenever you have your ult up, get free damage and casually farm the jungle during downtime. It's not exactly hard to have Treads/Blink/BKB done when teamfights start to break out, especially in pubs.
You're making arguments about how you can't get kills against "good teams even in all pick" when no one ever talks about solo kills. You grab whoever the fuck has burst on your team and/or controls tempo usually and go kill shit with them. Prime examples being things like QoP/TA/Storm/Clock who all enjoy that "little extra" in terms of damage and cc to kill even major targets. During downtime you're always off the map so that's not even an issue.
Who the hell cares about AoE disables and AoE nukes during a 2n1 or even better scenarios? Absolute worst case you... take damage from autoattacks during duel and after 3s someone shows up to help the guy that's being banged by your cc+autos and your buddies burst+autos.
By the time AoE stuff is relevant and full 5n5 fights can break out you have a BKB for those which means proper usage of Duel won't get you randomly killed. LC HAS to snowball off ganks to be a relevant solo kill threat later down the road.
Nevermind, you play your LC in semi-carry/hard-carry way, yea those BKB stuffs, a lot of carries farm faster and scales a lot better with items than LC anyway.
The process you explain far too dazzling and too relaxing for me, given current meta... Everything you assume is very perfectly executed without any retaliation...
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On December 29 2013 12:32 reyavalon wrote:
During a proper teamfights, blink/SB LC always dies after duel(winner or not) due to not enough hp, you getting that 10/14/18 damage with a huge price of exp and gold.
a LC survived a duel with red hp, and flee from fights, not really useful for team at all.
a LC got her stacks after a Duel but DIED and lose exp and gold, not really useful for team at all.
I think that's where you're wrong.
If a LC blinks in, ults, wins the duel and then dies it may in fact be very very good for the team. Both teams have lost a player, in the best case you traded your LC for the enemy carry who got nothing out of that fight because he/she died first, while the LC got xp/gold and dmg stacks and your own carry has free reign over the enemy team.
On December 29 2013 12:32 reyavalon wrote:
Whats LC's job is, LC snowballs her damage when survive from nukes before/after Duel with plenty of hp, and protect their teammates.
You might wonder why I hate blink dagger/SB on LC so much, The survivability having soul ring + tread + even bracer with cloak, its much better than blink duel damage stacks, during early-to-mid, given the amount of gold spent and the ease of building these items.
I think LC's job is not to primarily do dmg with her autoattacks (there are a lot of heroes who can do that better) but to use her insane disable to win the teamfight outright. Obviously it is not about some kamikaze action but similar to enigma or earthshaker where you wait for the right moment to initiate or change the outcome of the fight.
LC shouldn't be the main carry even though she definitely has the potential to snowball extremely hard. All the hero has going for her is the ult and blink dagger is exactly what she needs to enable the full potential of the ult. Early you can easily gank any lane with a blink and/or grab some last second duellstacks and open the potential for a snowball victory, later you can render 1 guy of the enemy team completely useless for a very long duration. And dont tell me that you cant pull off ganks as a LC with blink... if the fastest initiation coupled with the longest disable and even decent dmg are not enough to gank then no ganks would ever happen in this game.
BKB is very nice too because it removes all magic dmg and makes autoattacks the only way to deal with LC and a LC which isn't lightyears behind in farm can only be happy to be attacked by as many ppl as possible while dueling due to the additional procs.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 29 2013 21:47 reyavalon wrote:
Nevermind, you play your LC in semi-carry/hard-carry way, yea those BKB stuffs, a lot of carries farm faster and scales a lot better with items than LC anyway.
The process you explain far too dazzling and too relaxing for me, given current meta... Everything you assume is very perfectly executed without any retaliation...
Actually, no, it's quite the opposite. A Blink-first LC has far greater impact on the game earlier than an SR+Drums LC.
The moment you have your Blink, the enemy team basically has to react to how you play. Even if you are just farming your jungle, if you've showed with TP+Smoke in inventory, the enemy team has to play as if you could gank, because a hero with TP+Smoke can gank any of the 3 lanes in ~10s without ever passing a ward. The supports basically can't pull creeps in this scenario (very punishing at this timing because 6-10 minutes is where supports want to start catching up levels and getting their basic items once their early game support item duties are fulfilled) and if they do, its an opening to gank because if the supports are pulling, they cannot be in position to countergank their off-lane or mid.
You talk about things being too ideal, but you know what's too ideal? Ever getting a successful Duel gank without Blink as an instant engage. It's far harder to Duel gank without getting counter-ganked because having to have someone else engage first and having to run in means it's longer before you Duel them, longer before you kill them, which means more time for other enemy players to TP countergank. A no-Blink LC cannot gank nearly as effectively. It is somewhat stronger come teamfights assuming equal items (you won't have equal items because Blink LC's map pressure denies farming space to the enemy), but an LC with early fighting items and no Duel stacks is still not a good teamfighter. The reason you need the Duel snowball is because with 0 stacks Duel, even if you choose to get fighting items, you're a worse version of any other tanky melee Strength hero that does more damage, has more baseline defensive ability, and has more disables.
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I prefer Shadow Blade over Blink Dagger. Dagger gives no stats, and it can be disabled by attacks, while shadowblade gives dmg and attack speed.
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Hello TL!
I played 10 Legion Commander games yesterday and lost all 10 of them. However, the games all helped my understanding of the hero immensely and I clearly got better at LC throughout all of them.
Here are my observations:
Only 2 of the games I went negative, and those games the team was really stomped. Legion Commander is great at K/D Ratio, but that doesn't win her games.
People think Ursa is a counter to LC, he is not. Just avoid ursa like the plague until blademail. The real counter to LC are teamfight ults like Shadow Shaman or Warlock or Witch Doctor. LC is bad at pushing and teamfights, these supports make Dota hell for her.
If you are jungling, it is really hard to snowball if the lane next to the jungle is losing/feeding. You have to convince the rest of the team to come gank, because LC with blink/Treads and bracer will not solve a losing lane.
If you get a lot of duel ganks, the burden of proof is now on you to push. If you don't turn the danage into towers, you lose.
If you duel and get kills just after the duel, it's good for your team, but you still basically are stopped from snowballing. It sucks.
Legion Commander has ridiculous problems with high ground pushing, yet like I said she needs to convert her early game duel snowball into towers because farming is advantageous to the other team. Any advice here?
Item Progression:
Jungle: Blink-->Treads--->BKB or Blademail--> AC if no one is making-->Heart?
If you get a lane: Be a bit aggressive like Axe and Treads--->Armlet--->Blademail--->AC---->Heart has been good.
Reasons not to get Blink:
You have a mirana on your team that can ult you in
You have an Axe on your team with Blink
You laned. It's just weird to get blink if you lane.
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On December 30 2013 06:34 Bippzy wrote:
Hello TL!
I played 10 Legion Commander games yesterday and lost all 10 of them. However, the games all helped my understanding of the hero immensely and I clearly got better at LC throughout all of them.
Here are my observations:
Only 2 of the games I went negative, and those games the team was really stomped. Legion Commander is great at K/D Ratio, but that doesn't win her games.
People think Ursa is a counter to LC, he is not. Just avoid ursa like the plague until blademail. The real counter to LC are teamfight ults like Shadow Shaman or Warlock or Witch Doctor. LC is bad at pushing and teamfights, these supports make Dota hell for her.
If you are jungling, it is really hard to snowball if the lane next to the jungle is losing/feeding. You have to convince the rest of the team to come gank, because LC with blink/Treads and bracer will not solve a losing lane.
If you get a lot of duel ganks, the burden of proof is now on you to push. If you don't turn the danage into towers, you lose.
If you duel and get kills just after the duel, it's good for your team, but you still basically are stopped from snowballing. It sucks.
Legion Commander has ridiculous problems with high ground pushing, yet like I said she needs to convert her early game duel snowball into towers because farming is advantageous to the other team. Any advice here?
Item Progression:
Jungle: Blink-->Treads--->BKB or Blademail--> AC if no one is making-->Heart?
If you get a lane: Be a bit aggressive like Axe and Treads--->Armlet--->Blademail--->AC---->Heart has been good.
Reasons not to get Blink:
You have a mirana on your team that can ult you in
You have an Axe on your team with Blink
You laned. It's just weird to get blink if you lane.
If you duel ursa he loses fury swipes (and vlads). No idea why people think he's a counter to LC. He can kill her if he is not the one who gets dueled but so can many other heroes. For all other counters you listed you can get bkb.
I really don't like the "I have to build as tanky as possible" focus most people have when they play LC. Especially if you get a good chunk of dmg from duelwins it proved to be way more effective just to go AC and Deso or Abyssal (after blink, bkb) instead of stuff like blademail or heart. The more dmg you do the more tanky you get due to the ridicolous amount of lifesteal you get from your passive and the faster you can eliminate a threat of their team. And it's so much fun to have like 300-500 dmg with -12 armor.
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On December 30 2013 00:58 Kemy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 12:32 reyavalon wrote:
During a proper teamfights, blink/SB LC always dies after duel(winner or not) due to not enough hp, you getting that 10/14/18 damage with a huge price of exp and gold.
a LC survived a duel with red hp, and flee from fights, not really useful for team at all.
a LC got her stacks after a Duel but DIED and lose exp and gold, not really useful for team at all.
I think that's where you're wrong. If a LC blinks in, ults, wins the duel and then dies it may in fact be very very good for the team. Both teams have lost a player, in the best case you traded your LC for the enemy carry who got nothing out of that fight because he/she died first, while the LC got xp/gold and dmg stacks and your own carry has free reign over the enemy team. Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 12:32 reyavalon wrote:
Whats LC's job is, LC snowballs her damage when survive from nukes before/after Duel with plenty of hp, and protect their teammates.
You might wonder why I hate blink dagger/SB on LC so much, The survivability having soul ring + tread + even bracer with cloak, its much better than blink duel damage stacks, during early-to-mid, given the amount of gold spent and the ease of building these items.
I think LC's job is not to primarily do dmg with her autoattacks (there are a lot of heroes who can do that better) but to use her insane disable to win the teamfight outright. Obviously it is not about some kamikaze action but similar to enigma or earthshaker where you wait for the right moment to initiate or change the outcome of the fight. LC shouldn't be the main carry even though she definitely has the potential to snowball extremely hard. All the hero has going for her is the ult and blink dagger is exactly what she needs to enable the full potential of the ult. Early you can easily gank any lane with a blink and/or grab some last second duellstacks and open the potential for a snowball victory, later you can render 1 guy of the enemy team completely useless for a very long duration. And dont tell me that you cant pull off ganks as a LC with blink... if the fastest initiation coupled with the longest disable and even decent dmg are not enough to gank then no ganks would ever happen in this game. BKB is very nice too because it removes all magic dmg and makes autoattacks the only way to deal with LC and a LC which isn't lightyears behind in farm can only be happy to be attacked by as many ppl as possible while dueling due to the additional procs.
Your first reply:
You trade 1 hero with your LC? This is why your team lose, this mindset cause the 80% of the games lost as far as I watched. And how sure are you able to blinks-in and Duel the carry? LC doesnt really scare dps heroes, she is more vulnerable to nukes under duel. You can say the same to the Duel target, but LC's fight does not really end at duel, she still needs lots of HP to fight against the team.
Yesterday I just saw a game, a LC stacked 400 damage, SB + Blink, AC, other damage item etc. But she is quickly killed by a sniper with lesser items. Why? In front of enemy team formation, her blink is useless. Blink is for those who can easily disrupt the whole enemy team while keeping self safe from harm such as puck. Blink with lasso is for batrider who can easily forcestaff back into own team zone. Even batrider with blink also easily countered. Example: OD. Don't ask me how OD can make your LC feeds. Its so obvious that your approach is too focus on Duel instead of survive and tank for your teammates.
You 2nd reply:
All my points mentioned never play LC as carry, she is a pure self-sustaining tanker.
I stopped reading when you use LC as initiator with blink. I only support LC duel with red hp enemies to get damage stacks.
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On December 30 2013 06:34 Bippzy wrote:
Hello TL!
I played 10 Legion Commander games yesterday and lost all 10 of them. However, the games all helped my understanding of the hero immensely and I clearly got better at LC throughout all of them.
Here are my observations:
Only 2 of the games I went negative, and those games the team was really stomped. Legion Commander is great at K/D Ratio, but that doesn't win her games.
People think Ursa is a counter to LC, he is not. Just avoid ursa like the plague until blademail. The real counter to LC are teamfight ults like Shadow Shaman or Warlock or Witch Doctor. LC is bad at pushing and teamfights, these supports make Dota hell for her.
If you are jungling, it is really hard to snowball if the lane next to the jungle is losing/feeding. You have to convince the rest of the team to come gank, because LC with blink/Treads and bracer will not solve a losing lane.
If you get a lot of duel ganks, the burden of proof is now on you to push. If you don't turn the danage into towers, you lose.
If you duel and get kills just after the duel, it's good for your team, but you still basically are stopped from snowballing. It sucks.
Legion Commander has ridiculous problems with high ground pushing, yet like I said she needs to convert her early game duel snowball into towers because farming is advantageous to the other team. Any advice here?
Item Progression:
Jungle: Blink-->Treads--->BKB or Blademail--> AC if no one is making-->Heart?
If you get a lane: Be a bit aggressive like Axe and Treads--->Armlet--->Blademail--->AC---->Heart has been good.
Reasons not to get Blink:
You have a mirana on your team that can ult you in
You have an Axe on your team with Blink
You laned. It's just weird to get blink if you lane.
Agree with you on LC stacked damage is mostly use for pushing, this hero is similar to SVEN in pushing. Should let your teammates to do the disable for you.
I always lane mid with soul ring at ease, I gank with teammates without relying too much on Duel, after stacked more than 5-7 duel stacks, I will become a pusher and semi-dpser with tons of HP with hood of defiance. This is how I win every LC games I played, provided my teammates provided sufficient supports.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Main problem of LC - not using duels sometimes totally, because it's totally unreal and he becomes absolutely irrelevant in addition to being absolutely useless while dueling because Valve and Icefrog don't wanna him and his target be immune to everything like it was in original dota. I dunno why, but after releasing of Earth Spirit i can't be surprised by anything.
Why can't he use duels? First, it's not first day of LC in DotA 2. Second and main part - LC's biggest strength (and only strength except farming and free purge) - isolating targets, preferably hardcore carries from other team. But here's one big problem. I hadn't seen teams, farming 50 minutes as solo laners and just feeding in forest for a long time. Instead of it there are just 5-man pushes and LC is completely useless in these situations.
Now let's discuss positive sides or advantages.
First, he's amazing in laning phase with his smooth animation.
Second, he's amazing splitpusher not only because almost permanent Alchemist's ultimate but also dat counterattacking towers, which makes myself feel bad for towers when LC in my team is pushing lane in 1 minute.
Third, dat horn sound is ridiculously op if u're sleeping while playing because you will never fall asleep.
No more advantages except...
Fourth - you have chance to get free damage if you're playing solo mm without anyone being stack. Useful thing to do but i've never done it :D
Fifth - you have free taunt so duel can be used onto bkb targets.
Some item builds.
Dagger >>>> Lothar on LC.
Not only because i highly recommend to skip lothar for all heroes and get dagger but also - when you're playing against smartass teams and not bunch of solo retards, they will gank your lane or your forest 24/7 with dusts/sentries/gem. Also it helps in instant initiations when you know that IT'S YOUR MOMENT TO SHINE. Don't forget to press bkb at least.
BKB - must have after dagger. Even before sometimes, same shit as Slardar/TA for example. If you're getting roflstomped - get bkb, it will provide something at least instead of wasting 3k gold into nothing just because they have dust for 180 gold.
For boots - highly recommend pt, phase are irrelevant here because you have nuff damage, also ias helps i heard and it's free 190 health for your horse.
Some situational items:
Rare situation of LC roflstomping by himself - go for desolator/basher/abyssal. Noone shall pass through the power of horse and horn.
Not rare situations of LC being roflstomped - after you got tricore of pt/dagger/bkb, focus yourself on getting some more sustain. Assault Cuirass, Basher, even Heart of Tarrasque sometimes - it helps, trust me. More you stand in fight - more chance to counterattack, more chance to aggro enemies just to deploy power of horn and die with pride or win.
Also situational:
- Daedalus (Buriza) - it's late item for you, because if u're winning with LC, game usually ends at ~25 minute mark, if u're getting stomped, it's better to look above and check previous statements.
- Butterfly/Halberd - highly recommending it when you're playing against fucking Slark and some more annoying dps like PA, just because she can crit you in this version of dota in duel.
- MKB - again, if you're playing against PA or you're single carry in team (even if i'm not considering LC as carry, only semi-carry as highest)
- Hex/Linkens. Something about hex - it's good always, especially if you lack cc in team and noone wants to build it because they have midases/dps items on qop/etc.
About Linken's Sphere. Personally i hate when people build bkb and linken on single hero. It's fucking bad and waste of gold. Especially when you're building manta as well. It's almost 10k of gold into dump because main target of all 3 items - SUR-VI-VA-BI-LI-TY. NO NEED IN OVERRATING IT. Noone will use 20 skills just to kill someone, if he can't kill them all instantly. And with bkb/linkens/manta you can't do shit with every hero except Morphling probably just because he's water. Manta Style also works pretty well on LC.
- Armlet - it's pretty situational, you can get it before bkb if you're snowballing but i don't recommend it. And buying it after tricore, which will be probably at ~25-30minute mark - armlet is not best item for that stage of the game.
About skillbuilds.
E one time on 4th, max W on farming lanes, max Q on solo mid/solo easy 1v1 against melee. - lane LC.
Same stuff in forest, except thing that you can max E and get Q once, but be ready to be buttraped by soul train with wards. So react fast and furiously.
Let the horse and horn power be with you.
AND ALWAYS BRING TP, IT WORTHS MORE THAN ANY OF OTHER ITEMS.
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On December 30 2013 11:35 reyavalon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 00:58 Kemy wrote:On December 29 2013 12:32 reyavalon wrote:
During a proper teamfights, blink/SB LC always dies after duel(winner or not) due to not enough hp, you getting that 10/14/18 damage with a huge price of exp and gold.
a LC survived a duel with red hp, and flee from fights, not really useful for team at all.
a LC got her stacks after a Duel but DIED and lose exp and gold, not really useful for team at all.
I think that's where you're wrong. If a LC blinks in, ults, wins the duel and then dies it may in fact be very very good for the team. Both teams have lost a player, in the best case you traded your LC for the enemy carry who got nothing out of that fight because he/she died first, while the LC got xp/gold and dmg stacks and your own carry has free reign over the enemy team. On December 29 2013 12:32 reyavalon wrote:
Whats LC's job is, LC snowballs her damage when survive from nukes before/after Duel with plenty of hp, and protect their teammates.
You might wonder why I hate blink dagger/SB on LC so much, The survivability having soul ring + tread + even bracer with cloak, its much better than blink duel damage stacks, during early-to-mid, given the amount of gold spent and the ease of building these items.
I think LC's job is not to primarily do dmg with her autoattacks (there are a lot of heroes who can do that better) but to use her insane disable to win the teamfight outright. Obviously it is not about some kamikaze action but similar to enigma or earthshaker where you wait for the right moment to initiate or change the outcome of the fight. LC shouldn't be the main carry even though she definitely has the potential to snowball extremely hard. All the hero has going for her is the ult and blink dagger is exactly what she needs to enable the full potential of the ult. Early you can easily gank any lane with a blink and/or grab some last second duellstacks and open the potential for a snowball victory, later you can render 1 guy of the enemy team completely useless for a very long duration. And dont tell me that you cant pull off ganks as a LC with blink... if the fastest initiation coupled with the longest disable and even decent dmg are not enough to gank then no ganks would ever happen in this game. BKB is very nice too because it removes all magic dmg and makes autoattacks the only way to deal with LC and a LC which isn't lightyears behind in farm can only be happy to be attacked by as many ppl as possible while dueling due to the additional procs. Your first reply: You trade 1 hero with your LC? This is why your team lose, this mindset cause the 80% of the games lost as far as I watched. And how sure are you able to blinks-in and Duel the carry? LC doesnt really scare dps heroes, she is more vulnerable to nukes under duel. You can say the same to the Duel target, but LC's fight does not really end at duel, she still needs lots of HP to fight against the team. Yesterday I just saw a game, a LC stacked 400 damage, SB + Blink, AC, other damage item etc. But she is quickly killed by a sniper with lesser items. Why? In front of enemy team formation, her blink is useless. Blink is for those who can easily disrupt the whole enemy team while keeping self safe from harm such as puck. Blink with lasso is for batrider who can easily forcestaff back into own team zone. Even batrider with blink also easily countered. Example: OD. Don't ask me how OD can make your LC feeds. Its so obvious that your approach is too focus on Duel instead of survive and tank for your teammates. You 2nd reply: All my points mentioned never play LC as carry, she is a pure self-sustaining tanker. I stopped reading when you use LC as initiator with blink. I only support LC duel with red hp enemies to get damage stacks.
First of all you have no idea how many games i win or lose. I played close to 40 games and have a reasonable winrate for soloqueue.
I did not say that my goal is to trade 1 for 1 but that it may still be beneficial to trade if you take out a key hero of the enemy team and win the duel. And yes i think that dps heroes should be very afraid of an LC because a 4-6 second lockdown is scary. And please stop talking about those big nukes which are so easily countered by BKB. The only one who has to be afraid of nukes is your target...
How sure I am to get the carry? Well how sure are you to make correct plays and decisions? Succeeding or failing is the game however you play.
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Id love for somebody to explain to me how soul ring makes you more tankier
reyavalon plz i needz your help
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On December 30 2013 20:31 Darkren wrote:
Id love for somebody to explain to me how soul ring makes you more tankier
reyavalon plz i needz your help
The horn of gondor saves LC in dire times...
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I wonder if half of the posters here even played more than 5 games with LC. I played 24 games with a bad wr ratio and tried different things, I can say that half of the posts are just theory crafting.
I wonder why you want to team fight with LC at all.
I wonder why do you want to blink & insta-duel at all.
The hero is all about killing early game and being better in skill/item timings. She is mostly a jungler/ganker most of the time and snowballs really fast with early duel kills.
It is useless to argue on why LC lost games after stealing 200+ damage for 40+ minute games.
She is very similar to jungle batrider in early game. Before blink or any other initiation item she is useless. After that you need to rely on lane partners to secure duel kills, since most of the time you cannot kill a semi-tank hero with duel and other skills alone. You need some burst or proper right clicks from other heroes.
In the mid game probably you can kill squishy heroes alone and on par with better ones. Again you need some kind of assistance most of the time.
Late game is all about positioning, CC spells and execution. Blink duel = death. You need to choose either rescue your carry or disable an enemy at this time. LC shouldn't be played as an initiator imo.
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I don't know how you can say "Late game is all about positioning [...]" and then say that Blink is a waste. Just because you have a Blink Dagger doesn't mean you yolo in 1v5 to initiate with Duel.
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On December 31 2013 04:26 TomatoBisque wrote:
I don't know how you can say "Late game is all about positioning [...]" and then say that Blink is a waste. Just because you have a Blink Dagger doesn't mean you yolo in 1v5 to initiate with Duel.
But he didn't say that Blink Dagger is a waste, he said that it is bad to play her as Initiation hero because most of the time you will just die and that you need assistance from your team if you really want to initiate.
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i find blink vastly superior to shadow blade on this hero, played quite a few games with both
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So I have been playing a few games of LC, you know, just down in the trenches.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/447331397
I started this game with a quick 0-2-3-0 jungle blink dagger. Then I transitioned into some feeding. The duels I was picking.....
I did go into phase boots and then straight into AC - I figured as long as i was dueling the doom first i could skip the bkb.
The gold graph showed dire was down at least 15 K gold at one point. Which is about when i did decide to stack damage and attack speed instead of more defensive/team oriented items. I hadn't planned on being the carry for our team but i guess it sorta worked out that way at the end. Just hang back in the teamfights until it seems like I can turn the tide with a quick duel victory.
It was a pretty close game - i got 6 slotted going battlefury last. What do you think about that item on LC? Is heart or butterfly better?
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On December 31 2013 04:26 TomatoBisque wrote:
I don't know how you can say "Late game is all about positioning [...]" and then say that Blink is a waste. Just because you have a Blink Dagger doesn't mean you yolo in 1v5 to initiate with Duel.
I didn't say blink is a waste. Blink-duel into 5 man is bad. I bought blink every game for early ganks and 1v1 opportunities.
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I dunno LC seems more effective building tanky items early otherwise you just get blown the F up and don't get any stacks in team fights, and even with a fast blink you still pretty much need to roll with an ally to actually secure a gank during duel's duration as you won't have the DPS alone. And if you're that coordinated already with your allies to gank did you really need blink in the first place? And if your strategy/preferred playstyle was to snowball with aggressively early ganks is LC really the best choice here?
And you don't need blink to be effective in team fights. You can support from the back with OO and PtA to cleanse, then run in and duel at the opportune time.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 31 2013 17:18 Skyro wrote:
I dunno LC seems more effective building tanky items early otherwise you just get blown the F up and don't get any stacks in team fights, and even with a fast blink you still pretty much need to roll with an ally to actually secure a gank during duel's duration as you won't have the DPS alone.
They key word there being team fights.
The game does't just willy nilly enter teamfight phase. There are a lot of other ways to develop the game than just maximizing teamfight effectiveness.
On December 31 2013 17:18 Skyro wrote:
And if you're that coordinated already with your allies to gank did you really need blink in the first place?
Depends on lineup and heroes. Instant engage at long range is important, particularly if it allows you to engage at range longer than the 2 key vision breakpoints--1025 range (range at which Smoke is revealed) and 800 range (night time vision). Sometimes you will get other heroes in your lineup that can initiate at long range, but even then in many of those cases, you want Blink Dagger simply to finish kills quickly. Having to walk into a Duel takes longer and gives the enemy team more time to respond.
On December 31 2013 17:18 Skyro wrote:
And if your strategy/preferred playstyle was to snowball with aggressively early ganks is LC really the best choice here?
Yes, because that's really where the strength of her kit lies.
I just don't see where the idea that LC can play an even game and become an effective teamfighter without exceptional gank effectiveness came to be. Her skillset really is not that good going into ~15 minute teamfights without a farm/level advantage and Duel stacks. OO has high optimal-case damage, but can be wildly unpredictable depending on how the fight is positioned and in the average case has far less damage output than most other Strength hero AoE nukes because of it's long CD (a Tiny or Magnus will easily get several Tosses/Shockwaves in a fight, but OO's CD is such that it's very questionable to get a 2nd one off). PtA similarly has a long CD compared to the spells you will be using it to deal with except in exceptional cases involving certain heroes and by and large shines as a lategame skill to protect and buff a carry who also uses the attack speed component. She has no non-ult disable, and her ult is heavily range-limited.
On December 31 2013 17:18 Skyro wrote:
And you don't need blink to be effective in team fights. You can support from the back with OO and PtA to cleanse, then run in and duel at the opportune time.
OO has far longer cooldown than similar AoE nukes on Strength heroes, and PtA only really shines midgame against big single-target disables (e.g. Primal Roar or Fiend's Grip). Otherwise, it's CD is far longer than most of the spells you're using it to negate.
People love to compare PtA to Abaddon's shield, but Abaddon's Shield has a 6s CD, which is LESS than most nukes/stuns that have CDs in the range of 10-12s, so you're getting a lot of value out of it to negate spells that are longer CD/higher value. This isn't the case with PtA because PtA for the most part has a much LONGER CD than the spells you're negating. So unless it's mid-lategame where the AS buff becomes more powerful on a carry with high damage, or you're using it to remove a high-value big disable, it's not exactly a stellar teamfight skill.
Again, if you do not snowball off of Duel, her kit is not better than any other Strength hero that has better nukes, better team utility skills, better farming power, and better lategame development.
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On December 31 2013 08:38 TheWestWind wrote:So I have been playing a few games of LC, you know, just down in the trenches. http://dotabuff.com/matches/447331397I started this game with a quick 0-2-3-0 jungle blink dagger. Then I transitioned into some feeding. The duels I was picking..... I did go into phase boots and then straight into AC - I figured as long as i was dueling the doom first i could skip the bkb. The gold graph showed dire was down at least 15 K gold at one point. Which is about when i did decide to stack damage and attack speed instead of more defensive/team oriented items. I hadn't planned on being the carry for our team but i guess it sorta worked out that way at the end. Just hang back in the teamfights until it seems like I can turn the tide with a quick duel victory. It was a pretty close game - i got 6 slotted going battlefury last. What do you think about that item on LC? Is heart or butterfly better?
Battlefury in general is an item that allows you to farm faster. You dont primarily get it for fighting because the cleave is at best situationally useful in fights. Thus, it is a pretty bad pick as your last item. Additionally, the cleave is disabled in duels. Butterfly doesnt offer much either. The evasion is disabled in duels and even if you want evasion heavens halberd just fits the hero better and the active is pretty good lategame.
One could argue if Daedalus is worth it or not. The crit portion is disabled in duels but it increases your dmg significantly while just rightclicking.
More standard lategame item choices are Desolator, Heart, Abyssal and Halberd depending on the enemy threats.
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On December 31 2013 04:33 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2013 04:26 TomatoBisque wrote:
I don't know how you can say "Late game is all about positioning [...]" and then say that Blink is a waste. Just because you have a Blink Dagger doesn't mean you yolo in 1v5 to initiate with Duel. But he didn't say that Blink Dagger is a waste, he said that it is bad to play her as Initiation hero because most of the time you will just die and that you need assistance from your team if you really want to initiate.
I totally misinterpreted that post then
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On December 31 2013 22:31 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2013 04:33 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 31 2013 04:26 TomatoBisque wrote:
I don't know how you can say "Late game is all about positioning [...]" and then say that Blink is a waste. Just because you have a Blink Dagger doesn't mean you yolo in 1v5 to initiate with Duel. But he didn't say that Blink Dagger is a waste, he said that it is bad to play her as Initiation hero because most of the time you will just die and that you need assistance from your team if you really want to initiate. I totally misinterpreted that post then
Well, yeah his way of expressing it was kind of confusing, but I understood what he meant.
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Been following the thread and am interested in using her jungling. Is there an optimum camp pathing/priority for her jungling wise? Never jungled before so if anyone can steer me in the right direction...
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Easy camp, then walk to check hard camp while stacking or letting the easy camp respawn. If it's a troll, satyr, or wildkin camp clear it (centaurs are doable, but not as worth), else just reclear the easy camp. If you cleared the hard, reclear the easy then move to the other camps. In dire you can just rotate through the two medium and one hard camp cluster, staying away from the lane. In radiant you can rotate between the hard, medium, and hard camps near the midlane. Avoid the red and yellow bear thing camp like the plague. Consider camps with them to be dead, although sometimes stacking them makes them doable. Avoid mudgolems and centaurs if you have a better option, and stack as is convenient. Let the troll camp summon skeletons (and kill the skeletons asap).
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United States47024 Posts
It depends on Radiant or Dire. As Radiant you want to rotate easy + nearest medium and hard if they're doable, only rotating to the further 2 camps if you get some awful spawns. As Dire it's the 2 mediums and the inner hard camp.
Basically you want to not have to run around everywhere and waste time.
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Good info, thanks guys. Does Dire have a more efficient jungling then, based on locations or do spawns really dictate it?
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Can you bkb out of her ulti ?
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On January 02 2014 06:57 PiPoGevy wrote:
Can you bkb out of her ulti ?
You can't use items in her ulti(duel) and duel is BKB piercing.
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Just noticed that if rubick steals duel and uses it on someone else, the winner doesn't get damage even if rubick loses. Is this intended?
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On January 05 2014 02:45 Oktyabr wrote:
Just noticed that if rubick steals duel and uses it on someone else, the winner doesn't get damage even if rubick loses. Is this intended?
It shouldn't be.
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On January 05 2014 07:46 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 02:45 Oktyabr wrote:
Just noticed that if rubick steals duel and uses it on someone else, the winner doesn't get damage even if rubick loses. Is this intended? It shouldn't be.
It is intended for sure.
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I think the best is lc jungle itno armlet then either blink or ac then deso or abyssal imo.
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What are your feelings about rushing HotD on this hero? I've been able to get a 8-9 minute rosh with it which is kinda huge, and it's useful farm big ancient stacks pretty early on. Main downside is being quite costly and doesn't offer anything in ganks.
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I played 48 games with the hero till now. My opening is stout-tango-quel, then proceed with 2 blades of attack into phase. I skip OO until late because it is costly and need levels. At 7 I give 0-2-4-1 since you can farm every camp and ancients while having hp which is huge for 1 man ganks.
I tried sb rush and drum into sb in my games nowadays. Drum gives an edge in early to mid game but delays sb to some extent. I have mana problems doesn't matter what I build so drums help this a bit.
Blink is nice too but you rely too much on your teammates and positioning to bring someone down. With some more investment, you get pretty good damage and attack speed with sb. Also awesome against split pushers.
I feel like, downside of this hero is the opponent's defensive play and staying together.
About HotD, I'll try it even though life steal doesn't provide that much value but xtra damage, regen and armor may prove its use with phase boots.
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I've been playing a bunch of LC in the 4300 mmr range. With the jungle rush blink strat as long as the other team isn't screwing with you beyond 1 ward and only roaming in the jungle 1-2x you can REALLY snowball hard. Get that blink from 7-8.5 mins, and grab a tp scroll.
If there's an obvious place to gank do it, if there's not just continue farming until lvl 8 for lvl 4 press the attack and keep your eye on the map for opportunities, because they WILL be there. If you mid is ganking a lane join them, basically once you get your blink your main job is to be at any team kill that happens, while working towards your finished boots. If you can get 3+ stacks before lvl 11 you are doing well.
On boots, I always go phase mainly because of the MS advantage over treads. When you see a kill happening you want to be there ASAP, I've barely made it quite a few times with phase to get that duel off and secure a stack. While I do think treads has a slight dps advantage, phase makes up for it in getting more potential stacks AND being better for chasing, which as a melee you will be doing a lot of. With phase + OO you can haul ass when you need to.
For items I personally prefer blink-phase-armlet-bkb because armlet provides some tanky hp and is so efficient early which is when you NEED to snowball. You need to be a big threat in the midgame to either take advantage of solo kills or to keep them grouped up which will reduce their farming and lvling.
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I'm not a fan of jungling LC. It forces you to play 4v5 with just 1 support which often is very hard, and it doesn't feel like he's worth the investment. If your team is already doing fine he feels like a win more hero, if your team is not doing fine (which is the case more often than not) his impact isn't as great as you would like it to be, especially considering that you probably won't have undisturbed farm if the enemies gain an advantage early. I guess it doesn't help that most players I've seen in my games go for subpar builds either.
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On January 14 2014 21:14 robaq wrote:
What are your feelings about rushing HotD on this hero? I've been able to get a 8-9 minute rosh with it which is kinda huge, and it's useful farm big ancient stacks pretty early on. Main downside is being quite costly and doesn't offer anything in ganks.
What does the rosh give you if you can't kill anyone because you're stuck with a hotd?
You already have passive lifesteal, and if you're farming big ancient stacks it's because you already have quite a bit of duel damage, and in the case you should just be killing more people.
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I don't like her in jungle because the percent chance to counter attack is the worst scaling ability she has. She is just a bizarre snowball hero,.
The one thing that infuriates me is when I see people duel before they cast "Press the Attack." The attack speed, heal, and debuff are all critical for something that will give your opponent permanent damage if you lose. Save a life; cast Press the Attack before dueling
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Yeah I've been doing some tests and HotD delays lothar/blink by 5/4 minutes and gives nothing but a fast lvl 11. So basically not worth it.
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On January 15 2014 12:43 DavoS wrote:
I don't like her in jungle because the percent chance to counter attack is the worst scaling ability she has. She is just a bizarre snowball hero,.
The one thing that infuriates me is when I see people duel before they cast "Press the Attack." The attack speed, heal, and debuff are all critical for something that will give your opponent permanent damage if you lose. Save a life; cast Press the Attack before dueling
You should be able to permanently jungle with 4 tangos, stout and qualling blade. I recommend skipping centaur spawns at first 2 levels. Centaurs do chaos damage, hard to kill and give shitty xp. Also more creeps = better chance at proccing.
I think its completely waste of safelane if people play it there. You shouldn't be able to kill their solo offlaner because LC doesn't have stun/slow which means you give him free XP leech which is pretty bad at higher level of games. Also LC is pretty bad dual vs dual lane hero if enemies run dual hardlane. And LC is one of the fastest jungle farmers in game. 6-7 levels and naked dagger in 7.5-8.5mins.
One of the reasons why dagger is so good on LC is that you can cast Press the Attack just before blinking to duel someone. I prefer it much more than shadowblade. When enemies buy sentries or get gem, LC will never be able to initiate well when they 5man.
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hotd doesn't even work during duel
u'd be better off getting a vlads if u rly wanna solo rosh
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Vlads doesn't work in duel either if LC is the one carrying it.
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On January 15 2014 18:56 Dead9 wrote:
hotd doesn't even work during duel
u'd be better off getting a vlads if u rly wanna solo rosh
Yeah, I tried HotD too and doesn't worth even thou I won the game. It gives sick damage with no recipe but provides no initiation. I didn't notice the life steal since i maxed out MoC first. Maybe after sb into satanic but I am not sure it satanic is useful at all until late game.
I play solely jungle LC these days to tank MMR, so I can try any build that comes to mind.
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Is it just me or is jungling awful after the MoC nerf (fix?) in 6.80?
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On January 30 2014 13:11 xSJx wrote:
Is it just me or is jungling awful after the MoC nerf (fix?) in 6.80?
Its not awful, it just means you have to jungle more efficiently rather than afk right click. Before, her MoC was a sort of crutch for people not jungling as efficiently. So now you have to stack the camps when you can, and make sure to avoid hellbear/centaur camps until a higher level.
Overall her jungling is worse, but she is still a strong jungler, and is probably still the second best jungler to not have a summon in the game(behind bat) (I guess you could make the case that she is as good as axe), but just need to play the jungle right and hope to not get Centaurs/hellbears.
You should still try to mid lane or safe lane LC if you can. Just a more efficient place for her. Really only Jungle if there is both a Better mid and a better carry on your team.
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Tried LC for the first time since she is in the pool. I lost the first 3 tries and played badly. I think its because of the armlet toggle, i never can get that to work properly on any hero.
I think phaseboots is better then threads, its easier to get LC snowballing and phase combines better with the E-skill in the early game. I skipped armlet and went for an ogre club instead, that worked out well thx to the lower skillrequirement. I think Witchdoctor and omniknight combine well with this hero.
I went for phase, ogre club, maelstrom, shadowblade etcetcetc.... I baptized it..... dliub-orcim-on
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LC's who don't get blink are sooooo useless. Just walk away.
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On January 31 2014 01:39 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 13:11 xSJx wrote:
Is it just me or is jungling awful after the MoC nerf (fix?) in 6.80? Its not awful, it just means you have to jungle more efficiently rather than afk right click. Before, her MoC was a sort of crutch for people not jungling as efficiently. So now you have to stack the camps when you can, and make sure to avoid hellbear/centaur camps until a higher level. Overall her jungling is worse, but she is still a strong jungler, and is probably still the second best jungler to not have a summon in the game(behind bat) (I guess you could make the case that she is as good as axe), but just need to play the jungle right and hope to not get Centaurs/hellbears. You should still try to mid lane or safe lane LC if you can. Just a more efficient place for her. Really only Jungle if there is both a Better mid and a better carry on your team.
Could you elaborate on what to do regarding Centaurs/hellbear spawns - what level would be good to start tackling them? Do I just bounce to other camps LC can handle early, stack the ones she can't, etc in the meantime?
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I personally think she is a very potent melee mid hero, she has high base damage and a good HP pool, and her Overwhelming Odds allows her to push the lane, harass the opponent and run for rune (and is quite spammable if you have bottle), I think maxing this first (at least in the middle lane) is essential for making her dangerous mid. I usually rush blink dagger after boots, so my blink dagger timing is usually between 8 and 12 minutes. The surprise initiation you can do with a blink dagger is very potent and you can even cast Press the attack on yourself before you blink in, whereas with Shadow Blade you have to cast it on yourself when you are right beside them, which can result you in getting stunned (if the target has any). If you are snowballing out of control, then Desolator is really nice for bursting people down + with the space you have created, towers will fall quickly. BKB is very powerful pickup for securing your DPS and killing off important targets quickly with duel. Due to her rather low armor you usually need to pickup a stout shield in the early game (especially if you are against a ranged mid) and a Assault Cuirass in the late game. Don't prioritize Moment of Courage above any other of her skills, a single point in it (at level 2 or 4) is enough until your other skills are maxed, and I honestly think her jungleing is not very efficient, especially after this recent patch where her lifesteal part of the skill won't lifesteal two times in a row.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 15 2014 20:59 Belisarius wrote:
Vlads doesn't work in duel either if LC is the one carrying it.
It should, Doom/Duel don't disable auras.
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EDIT: failed at reading thread
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On January 31 2014 01:39 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 13:11 xSJx wrote:
Is it just me or is jungling awful after the MoC nerf (fix?) in 6.80? Its not awful, it just means you have to jungle more efficiently rather than afk right click. Before, her MoC was a sort of crutch for people not jungling as efficiently. So now you have to stack the camps when you can, and make sure to avoid hellbear/centaur camps until a higher level. Overall her jungling is worse, but she is still a strong jungler, and is probably still the second best jungler to not have a summon in the game(behind bat) (I guess you could make the case that she is as good as axe), but just need to play the jungle right and hope to not get Centaurs/hellbears. You should still try to mid lane or safe lane LC if you can. Just a more efficient place for her. Really only Jungle if there is both a Better mid and a better carry on your team.
Alright so on this....
What is a reasonable time for blink dagger now?
It feels like much more than a minor nerf. If you get a centaur in a medium camp and anything except trolls in a hard camp early on, it sets you back enormously. Even abusing the small camp and screwing up your safelane, I find she still jungles far more slowly than is reasonable to make an impact with blink.
If someone had a reply of a good blink timing (preferably of realistic spawns rather than that one game you got 3x troll 4x satyr), that would bea very much appreciated.
EDIT: and now double post. I am really good at this today.
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This hero is so bloody annoying to have on your team. If you want to AFK jungle farm and get armlet and AC then just fucking pick lifestealer ffs. Unless you are abusing you ultimate with a blink or shadow blade or something, you are gaining next to nothing by picking this hero instead of naix.
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On February 23 2014 13:17 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 01:39 Ravensong170 wrote:On January 30 2014 13:11 xSJx wrote:
Is it just me or is jungling awful after the MoC nerf (fix?) in 6.80? Its not awful, it just means you have to jungle more efficiently rather than afk right click. Before, her MoC was a sort of crutch for people not jungling as efficiently. So now you have to stack the camps when you can, and make sure to avoid hellbear/centaur camps until a higher level. Overall her jungling is worse, but she is still a strong jungler, and is probably still the second best jungler to not have a summon in the game(behind bat) (I guess you could make the case that she is as good as axe), but just need to play the jungle right and hope to not get Centaurs/hellbears. You should still try to mid lane or safe lane LC if you can. Just a more efficient place for her. Really only Jungle if there is both a Better mid and a better carry on your team. Alright so on this.... What is a reasonable time for blink dagger now? It feels like much more than a minor nerf. If you get a centaur in a medium camp and anything except trolls in a hard camp early on, it sets you back enormously. Even abusing the small camp and screwing up your safelane, I find she still jungles far more slowly than is reasonable to make an impact with blink. If someone had a reply of a good blink timing (preferably of realistic spawns rather than that one game you got 3x troll 4x satyr), that would bea very much appreciated. EDIT: and now double post. I am really good at this today.
you have to choke point jungle now
around 8 min ish
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Isn't chokepointing even slower though?
Even if MoC is worse now, surely you still get more lifesteal/dps from the extra procs the small creeps give you...
And 8 mins for naked blink or blink + boots?
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On February 23 2014 13:17 Zealos wrote:
This hero is so bloody annoying to have on your team. If you want to AFK jungle farm and get armlet and AC then just fucking pick lifestealer ffs. Unless you are abusing you ultimate with a blink or shadow blade or something, you are gaining next to nothing by picking this hero instead of naix.
She farms safer. With careful jungling, you can stay above %50 all the time.
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On February 24 2014 02:27 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 13:17 Zealos wrote:
This hero is so bloody annoying to have on your team. If you want to AFK jungle farm and get armlet and AC then just fucking pick lifestealer ffs. Unless you are abusing you ultimate with a blink or shadow blade or something, you are gaining next to nothing by picking this hero instead of naix. She farms safer. With careful jungling, you can stay above %50 all the time.
Pls no. She is not a 30 min AFK farming hero. At all.
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United States47024 Posts
The draw of jungle LC is the same as jungle Bat--because you don't have to spend gold on items that are necessary for laning (e.g. Boots, Stick, Bottle), you can squeeze out Blink Dagger a minute or two faster even though your overall farm is slower. A successful Blink kill a minute sooner essentially makes back the difference in farm between jungle and lane.
This just means that jungle LC is dependent on that 1st Blink Dagger gank to be worthwhile.
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On February 25 2014 18:56 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 02:27 Laserist wrote:On February 23 2014 13:17 Zealos wrote:
This hero is so bloody annoying to have on your team. If you want to AFK jungle farm and get armlet and AC then just fucking pick lifestealer ffs. Unless you are abusing you ultimate with a blink or shadow blade or something, you are gaining next to nothing by picking this hero instead of naix. She farms safer. With careful jungling, you can stay above %50 all the time. Pls no. She is not a 30 min AFK farming hero. At all.
Did you quote me? I didn't say anything about 30 min farm. I generally rush phase into blink and finished it around 13 min. Then gank mid or safe lane to secure some damage and jungle in ulti downtime.
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On February 25 2014 21:37 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 18:56 Zealos wrote:On February 24 2014 02:27 Laserist wrote:On February 23 2014 13:17 Zealos wrote:
This hero is so bloody annoying to have on your team. If you want to AFK jungle farm and get armlet and AC then just fucking pick lifestealer ffs. Unless you are abusing you ultimate with a blink or shadow blade or something, you are gaining next to nothing by picking this hero instead of naix. She farms safer. With careful jungling, you can stay above %50 all the time. Pls no. She is not a 30 min AFK farming hero. At all. Did you quote me? I didn't say anything about 30 min farm. I generally rush phase into blink and finished it around 13 min. Then gank mid or safe lane to secure some damage and jungle in ulti downtime.
How do you jungle her now? Or are you laning/Mid?
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On March 22 2014 00:54 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 21:37 Laserist wrote:On February 25 2014 18:56 Zealos wrote:On February 24 2014 02:27 Laserist wrote:On February 23 2014 13:17 Zealos wrote:
This hero is so bloody annoying to have on your team. If you want to AFK jungle farm and get armlet and AC then just fucking pick lifestealer ffs. Unless you are abusing you ultimate with a blink or shadow blade or something, you are gaining next to nothing by picking this hero instead of naix. She farms safer. With careful jungling, you can stay above %50 all the time. Pls no. She is not a 30 min AFK farming hero. At all. Did you quote me? I didn't say anything about 30 min farm. I generally rush phase into blink and finished it around 13 min. Then gank mid or safe lane to secure some damage and jungle in ulti downtime. How do you jungle her now? Or are you laning/Mid?
Neither. Go jungle since she doesn't benefits from farm as much as others. My choice is choke point jungle unless 3 points of passive. Stack hard camp is possible. I go phase before blink since you are extremely reliant of you lane mates to secure damage with just blink. Phase give a good 100-150 maybe more physical damage in ulti probably let you secure kills and better jungling.
Rushing blink is legit but needs more finesse to use effectively.
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I usually don't go blink on this hero but instead go for ms build and it works quite well
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Anybody have a replay with LC choke point jungling? Just want to get some benchmarks.
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I've started going for phase->drum->S&Y now instead of blink simply due to the huge increase in early game fight power (phase drum is significantly better damage than treads blink early), and running mid to speed this up and actually, she seems pretty decent mid, the Q is an easy to hit nuke that does decent damage even at level 1 (120 damage if you hit the hero + 4 creeps at level 1, 300 at rank 4). The bottle helps with her mana issues (if you want to cast spells), and being able to fight with 4/1/1/1 vs 0/4/2/1 is going to be huge in the next patch (5 man OO is 5*60+180=480 damage, 560 with a creep wave!)
The problem then is that you can never kill the ranged creep with your Q, but hitting it with it means it will be a free deny (bad). The 6.81 change makes this easier later (level 7+) as if you can hit the hero, the ranged creep should die in 1 hit (180 + 20*4 + 65 = 325), but makes it worse if you don't hit the hero (as even if you had level 7 at minute 1 it wouldn't be enough).
Is there a reliable method to get your melee creeps to hit their ranged creeps if you can pull the aggro of their melee creeps? Would help LC mid a lot I think if you can do this as my current method of running to the other side of the river to right click it once is pretty suicidal if I play against players who know what they're doing or roaming supports.
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For me, in min of 12-15 i already can solo kill by > Armlet > Blink > PtA > Blademail > DUEL !!! (87.9%) your foe dead :D
*even ursa and PA cant survive my deadly Duel, unless ive been hook or stun xD
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Solo offlane this hero with soul ring anyone? I've tried it a couple of times and overwhelming odds is great for last hits and blasting trilanes especially when they try to push your tower.
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Yes. LC is still pretty damn broken as offlane, 100% winrate with her on that role. She's as disgusting as phoenix was pre-nerf at crushing trilanes.
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LC can work in dual lanes too. You can put a lot of pressure on enemy regen just with her nuke. It's a shame how many people just use her as only a jungle hero.
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phoenix has an escape (pretty ideal for offlaners) and an obnoxious attack speed slow that prevents the safe lane from csing like they want to. phoenix doesn't need items to be a team fight force (tranquils + ult + slow mek is fine)
legion won't do anything in the offlane if the safelaners know how to control the lane and pull properly. you'll be zoned by 1 support and the other will stack/pull and deny the wave.
the other problem is overwhelming odds shoves the lane towards their tower, something u do not want as an offlaner.
and lastly legion desperately needs farm to be effective. legion needs blink to do anything, and legion doesn't have the kit to safely farm a blink in the offlane unlike puck/centaur. Also unlike puck/centaur, legion doesnt offer anything to the team until she has that item.
could work pretty well against a greedy support duo or dual lanes, though
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You don't need that much farm on legion, just a moderately fast blink and levels. LC does not care if she shoves the wave because she just zones out 3 heroes by doing more than 300 damage to them every 18 seconds. Then she tower dives and slays them all. LC is basically axe but does not get countered by ranged heroes.
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On July 27 2014 12:48 NeoRussia wrote:
You don't need that much farm on legion, just a moderately fast blink and levels. LC does not care if she shoves the wave because she just zones out 3 heroes by doing more than 300 damage to them every 18 seconds. Then she tower dives and slays them all. LC is basically axe but does not get countered by ranged heroes.
the hardest part of offlane is the first 5 minutes, and legion has 0 tools to survive that aside from a small burst heal. For example if the enemy safelane is void/skywrath+1, the skywrath will stand way in front of the wave and spam your face, keeping you far away from the wave. the +1 will pull/double pull, and if the void has any sense of lane control, you are in bad news town and need to jungle recover immediately.
unless you are at the level where any hero can offlane, you could use the same argument for shadow fiend off lane, or tiny off lane.
i just don't see any situation where a legion would be allowed to get levels or farm by any competent tri lane, or even most decent dual lanes.
she's a good solo laner, put her mid
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well i guess 320 base movement and the movement buff from OO might give her more survivability than I originally thought, so i'll give you guys that much. but still, she doesn't have offlane tools unless they are shoving your tower, which is not what trilanes are for.
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So I've been practicing against bots with LC and today I played my first game (unranked) and managed to go 21-5-11.
My build is to go: PMS>QB>sage mask>brown boots>armlet>blink>BKB>BoT>AC.
I've seen two popular items with her, and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around them. Power treads and blademail. Armlet seems like a far greater item for her. You get the HP bonus from its active and it gives you attack speed and armor and regen. And it takes up one slot.
So why are people prioritizing bladmail and power treads? For the return active and the measly movement speed?
Sorry if I'm coming off as an ass, I'm just genuinely curious.
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I don't like QB on any non-hard carry heroes unless its specific rare situations, pms and sage's mask are a waste of item slots because you won't have many with those. I dislike armlet, typically blademail is what I follow blink with, its probably better than any other early game item. BKB is unneeded I like heart better because heart blademail makes you basically untargetable in duel when your teammates follow up, I don't really get any hp items other than treads and the occasional drums until heart which comes usually after AC. Medallion or halberd against linken's sphere buyers. I have not experimented much with armlet phase build, but the times I've tried it, it was simply not as good as treads blademail. The only other item I really get is mjollnir/maelstrom, its what you get when you are snowballing, soul ring for offlane and bottle for mid. Also shadowblade sucks cause you usually can't land SB hit, press the attack, blademail, then duel all at the same time without the enemy responding after your shadow blade attack.
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Treads are the most cost-effective DPS item in their price bracket given that I already have brown boots. As an added bonus, Treads switching means my Basi flat mana regen goes further.
Also, QB is fine if you can't consistently last hit at level 1 without it but bad if you can't consistently last hit with it.
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On August 05 2014 14:36 NeoRussia wrote:
I don't like QB on any non-hard carry heroes unless its specific rare situations, pms and sage's mask are a waste of item slots because you won't have many with those. I dislike armlet, typically blademail is what I follow blink with, its probably better than any other early game item. BKB is unneeded I like heart better because heart blademail makes you basically untargetable in duel when your teammates follow up, I don't really get any hp items other than treads and the occasional drums until heart which comes usually after AC. Medallion or halberd against linken's sphere buyers. I have not experimented much with armlet phase build, but the times I've tried it, it was simply not as good as treads blademail. The only other item I really get is mjollnir/maelstrom, its what you get when you are snowballing, soul ring for offlane and bottle for mid. Also shadowblade sucks cause you usually can't land SB hit, press the attack, blademail, then duel all at the same time without the enemy responding after your shadow blade attack.
You don't need any items before blink on lc. No need for HP no need for damage. You just need to use blink to help gank, which gets you a few successful duels. It also gets you gold, which you spend on items that allow you to solo kill targets. After that you spend on bkb so that you can do so in the midst of teamfights. Really you don't need armlet before blink at all. You can even go stout qb blink before boots.
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-Yeah QB is really more for junglers or straight ricers/split pushers. LC already has great base damage, you shouldn't need QB to last hit.
-An early ring of Basi is also a great laning item for LC too, and can turn into a lot of useful items for LC like Medallion, Urn, or Vlads.
-Speaking of which, am I the only one who builds support items on LC? I really like going Basi -> Vlads after Blink. Mana regen is always nice early for LC and you're going to need assistance to kill targets during duel ganks early on, so Vlads becomes very cost effective and it scales into late game. IMO it is far superior timing item than Armlet for LC. I feel Armlet is simply built way too often on LC. Late game I then build into AC.
-Medallion is also very nice alternative if you need something even cheaper/quicker and opens up some fast Roshan shenanigans. Medallion is pretty nice for its flexibility to either stay tanky with the armor or use the active to try to down someone in duel faster.
-I'm not a fan of Phase Boots on LC. You already have a built in chase with OO and Treads makes her tankier along with the DPS. I always tend to build her more tanky after Blink instead of DPS as her DPS is naturally going to build up from her ult regardless.
-I not a huge Blademail fan, but I admittedly having experimented with it too much. Using it as an alternative to BKB is interesting concept.
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After playing LC for like 500 games in the 5k+ bracket...
LC is garbage in the offlane, is an extremely timing dependent hero and putting her in the offlane slows down alot of her timings. You want to have the safe lane or mid lane (preferably mid). She is much stronger in mid than given credit for, and can easily bully around alot of the weaker heroes in lane that have lower hp pools. Puck/QoP/Storm/etc. in theory should beat her, but most players are not familiar with the match-up against LC and end up eating a few MoCs and OOOs and run out of regen quick and will pretty much flat out lose the lane or die. Not to mention bottle crowing with LC makes your opponent want to rage out especially if you're building her correctly (1 MoC, Max OOO, then Max PTA)
Treads/Blink should be your first few items, they give you map presence and scares the opposing team into community farming. Immediately following blink you build Maelstrom, period, pretty much 100% of the time unless you are severely behind. It is by far the most cost efficient item on LC. It gives you attack speed, damage, a lightning proc that also procs during duels/MoCs, and is an easy and cheap build-up. BKB is a dick bad 2nd item; LC is a 100% snowball reliant hero, and BKB does nothing to assist you in this endeavor. You should never duel a carry until way later in the game anyways. Most of the time you can easily hit a 30 minute window where you'll have Treads/Blink/Maelstrom/BKB anyways.
Later pick ups should be Mjoll/AC/BKB. Finish off with a Heart/BoTs if necessary. LC thrives heavily on attack speed, so pick up as much as you can. Armlet is cool and all, but seriously, Maelstrom is the same cost and just straight up better from an overall cost standpoint. Armlet is much more efficient as a singular item, but Maelstrom makes farming alot easier and allows you to reach other items quicker. Basically it makes you less dependent on kills and shit. Not to mention, the more duels you get, the stronger Mjoll/Maelstrom is due to how flat damage/aspd scaling works.
If you are forced into the jungle by your team they are dumb as shit. Basically your game is make or break on your 8 minuteish blink. From the mid/safe lane, you can play her as a tempo hero with levels because you're leveling OOO which is basically one of the best non-ultimate teamfight spells in the game. With a shit ton of creeps/units around heroes, you're doing like Echo Slam levels of damage (500+) in a huge AoE. In the offlane she can be ok but it has to be a weaker dual lane, otherwise you'll get shut out of the lane and you will have no way to recover.
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I suppose I should respond to that post, and SQSA thread feedback, by sharing my 'jungle b' laning strategy for Radiant. I don't have large enough sample to be confident in the results, but the pure timings appear to work out. Legion commander is notionally a trilane support here but spends most of her time in jungle.
0:53 - Stack outer medium camp
For X=1 to X=5
X:13 - X:48 - Pullthrough
X:53 - Stack the hard camp near the pullthrough (I fail an average of one stack here)
5:53 (or level 5) - Clear hard camp stack with Overwhelming Odds then return to base for mana/hp refill.
7:00 - smoke gank the XP starved offlaner or any exposed hero.
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On August 06 2014 03:12 superstartran wrote:
After playing LC for like 500 games in the 5k+ bracket...
LC is garbage in the offlane, is an extremely timing dependent hero and putting her in the offlane slows down alot of her timings. You want to have the safe lane or mid lane (preferably mid). She is much stronger in mid than given credit for, and can easily bully around alot of the weaker heroes in lane that have lower hp pools. Puck/QoP/Storm/etc. in theory should beat her, but most players are not familiar with the match-up against LC and end up eating a few MoCs and OOOs and run out of regen quick and will pretty much flat out lose the lane or die. Not to mention bottle crowing with LC makes your opponent want to rage out especially if you're building her correctly (1 MoC, Max OOO, then Max PTA)
Treads/Blink should be your first few items, they give you map presence and scares the opposing team into community farming. Immediately following blink you build Maelstrom, period, pretty much 100% of the time unless you are severely behind. It is by far the most cost efficient item on LC. It gives you attack speed, damage, a lightning proc that also procs during duels/MoCs, and is an easy and cheap build-up. BKB is a dick bad 2nd item; LC is a 100% snowball reliant hero, and BKB does nothing to assist you in this endeavor. You should never duel a carry until way later in the game anyways. Most of the time you can easily hit a 30 minute window where you'll have Treads/Blink/Maelstrom/BKB anyways.
Later pick ups should be Mjoll/AC/BKB. Finish off with a Heart/BoTs if necessary. LC thrives heavily on attack speed, so pick up as much as you can. Armlet is cool and all, but seriously, Maelstrom is the same cost and just straight up better from an overall cost standpoint. Armlet is much more efficient as a singular item, but Maelstrom makes farming alot easier and allows you to reach other items quicker. Basically it makes you less dependent on kills and shit. Not to mention, the more duels you get, the stronger Mjoll/Maelstrom is due to how flat damage/aspd scaling works.
If you are forced into the jungle by your team they are dumb as shit. Basically your game is make or break on your 8 minuteish blink. From the mid/safe lane, you can play her as a tempo hero with levels because you're leveling OOO which is basically one of the best non-ultimate teamfight spells in the game. With a shit ton of creeps/units around heroes, you're doing like Echo Slam levels of damage (500+) in a huge AoE. In the offlane she can be ok but it has to be a weaker dual lane, otherwise you'll get shut out of the lane and you will have no way to recover.
i pretty much agree with this 100%
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On August 06 2014 04:05 Buckyman wrote:
I suppose I should respond to that post, and SQSA thread feedback, by sharing my 'jungle b' laning strategy for Radiant. I don't have large enough sample to be confident in the results, but the pure timings appear to work out. Legion commander is notionally a trilane support here but spends most of her time in jungle.
0:53 - Stack outer medium camp
For X=1 to X=5
X:13 - X:48 - Pullthrough
X:53 - Stack the hard camp near the pullthrough (I fail an average of one stack here)
5:53 (or level 5) - Clear hard camp stack with Overwhelming Odds then return to base for mana/hp refill.
7:00 - smoke gank the XP starved offlaner or any exposed hero.
The problem with LC from the jungle is that she becomes a glorified shitty version of Batrider that can sorta scale if she gets out of control. The issue with LC jungle is that you're ignoring a fast level 4 OOO timing which is pretty much the best non-ultimate nuke in teamfights early in the game. If you force 3-4 people to TP and you hit a level 4 OOO early, you autowin that fight due to how much damage OOO does. It's pretty stupid IMO to jungle her because if your first two ganks go bad, you're way behind and suddenly useless for the rest of the game outside of your one buff (which is a good buff, don't get me wrong, but it's still not enough to pick her solely for that).
LC is most dangerous is if she gets ahead and reaches late game with +150 dmg. At this point, she can basically duel supports for free damage and it just gets exponentially way crazier. I've had games that went 50-60+ minutes and I would have like 300+ damage and I would just absolutely obliterate carries.
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Me and my brother did some experimenting in playing her as like a 4th position togheter with drow. It worked out quite well, since PtA is really good on drow and as soon as both hit 6, the enemey need to commit alot of heroes to stop their push/make sure LC doesn't get alot of free duel wins. Besides, LC dueling someone usually makes people focus her so drow can just have free reign dishing out her DPS. Think the build on LC was something like blink into mek.
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On August 06 2014 03:12 superstartran wrote:
After playing LC for like 500 games in the 5k+ bracket...
LC is garbage in the offlane, is an extremely timing dependent hero and putting her in the offlane slows down alot of her timings. You want to have the safe lane or mid lane (preferably mid). She is much stronger in mid than given credit for, and can easily bully around alot of the weaker heroes in lane that have lower hp pools. Puck/QoP/Storm/etc. in theory should beat her, but most players are not familiar with the match-up against LC and end up eating a few MoCs and OOOs and run out of regen quick and will pretty much flat out lose the lane or die. Not to mention bottle crowing with LC makes your opponent want to rage out especially if you're building her correctly (1 MoC, Max OOO, then Max PTA)
Treads/Blink should be your first few items, they give you map presence and scares the opposing team into community farming. Immediately following blink you build Maelstrom, period, pretty much 100% of the time unless you are severely behind. It is by far the most cost efficient item on LC. It gives you attack speed, damage, a lightning proc that also procs during duels/MoCs, and is an easy and cheap build-up. BKB is a dick bad 2nd item; LC is a 100% snowball reliant hero, and BKB does nothing to assist you in this endeavor. You should never duel a carry until way later in the game anyways. Most of the time you can easily hit a 30 minute window where you'll have Treads/Blink/Maelstrom/BKB anyways.
Later pick ups should be Mjoll/AC/BKB. Finish off with a Heart/BoTs if necessary. LC thrives heavily on attack speed, so pick up as much as you can. Armlet is cool and all, but seriously, Maelstrom is the same cost and just straight up better from an overall cost standpoint. Armlet is much more efficient as a singular item, but Maelstrom makes farming alot easier and allows you to reach other items quicker. Basically it makes you less dependent on kills and shit. Not to mention, the more duels you get, the stronger Mjoll/Maelstrom is due to how flat damage/aspd scaling works.
If you are forced into the jungle by your team they are dumb as shit. Basically your game is make or break on your 8 minuteish blink. From the mid/safe lane, you can play her as a tempo hero with levels because you're leveling OOO which is basically one of the best non-ultimate teamfight spells in the game. With a shit ton of creeps/units around heroes, you're doing like Echo Slam levels of damage (500+) in a huge AoE. In the offlane she can be ok but it has to be a weaker dual lane, otherwise you'll get shut out of the lane and you will have no way to recover.
Thanks a lot for your help! If you can't go mid is sage mask a bad item for her?
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Your mana costs are relatively low and your CDs are fairly long, and LC has a pretty good Int gain. I don't think you really need a mana item on her, although I suppose Basi or a Sobi would give her a lot of sustain due.
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soul ring for offlane and bottle for mid. Medallion and blademail both give mana and are good items on her.
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On August 06 2014 11:37 NeoRussia wrote:
soul ring for offlane and bottle for mid. Medallion and blademail both give mana and are good items on her.
I hate Medallion on her and Blademail is extremely situational.
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Her INT gain is pretty sick for a STR semi-carry and her mana costs aren't really prohibitive at mid-game.
I'm pretty sure you don't really need another mana item outside of bottle or soul ring, tbh. After blink you can get a (BKB somewhere or Mael if you can easily nuke someone down with PtA/MoC) Desolator or AC in whatever order to tank you up or just go for those duel kills easier, but AC helps with both but you can do some clowny shit for pushing with deso. If you're looking to counter a high DPS hero, sure, blademail's active and damage can be decent but you should rly only get it for the active before you need the armour and especially the INT.
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Super(man)startran, whats your opinion about a sange after boots+blink for a mid/late halberd?
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On August 07 2014 05:43 govie wrote:
Super(man)startran, whats your opinion about a sange after boots+blink for a mid/late halberd?
I stick to tried and true glass cannon LC. Halbred is useless since Duel purges it off from what I remember (I never buy the item on her so I don't remember if it is still this way), and you don't get Evasion while you are dueling.
It's just a bad item in general on her. Your most cost effective items are blink, Maelstrom, bkb, and armlet. I prefer Maelstrom over Armlet for various reasons, mostly because proccing multiple Lightnings with Autos/MoC is just absolutely devastating.
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United States47024 Posts
Duel doesn't purge Halberd's debuff, but all effects that prevent attacking during Duel are overridden by Duel (as in, if you Halberded someone near the end of Duel, they would continue to attack during the Duel, but the Disarm would still be active as the Duel ended).
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On August 07 2014 11:11 TheYango wrote:
Duel doesn't purge Halberd's debuff, but all effects that prevent attacking during Duel are overridden by Duel (as in, if you Halberded someone near the end of Duel, they would continue to attack during the Duel, but the Disarm would still be active as the Duel ended).
Well yeah but that kind of defeats the purpose of the Duel, because during a Duel you wanna kill the character as quickly as possible. Mostly I'll be targetting supports anyways in the early to mid game, and then switch over and kill off enemy carries particularly ones like Void that rely on their passive to survive end game fights.
So in a sense it's not 'purging' but it's pretty useless anyways. You don't get the Evasion during duels and you can't disarm them (in a technical sense).
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thx startran, sounds logical.
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What about if you are your team's initiator? You can't build glass in that case. Do you go for Vanguard so you can immediately push towers after ganks/teamfights?
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On August 09 2014 02:32 Skyro wrote:
What about if you are your team's initiator? You can't build glass in that case. Do you go for Vanguard so you can immediately push towers after ganks/teamfights?
Ur innately tanky with a good heal. If you feel the need for raw HP you can go armlet or sange (both of which are pretty meh) or BKB. Sange would build best into SnY imo. Vanguard is, as always, FUKKIN AWFUL.
Vanguard doesn't help u push towers lmao if u wanna push u actually need a mana item to spam waves with Odds.
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United States47024 Posts
Vanguard isn't an awful item for many heroes, it's just really unsuitable for LC. She makes no real use of the regen because she has two skills that supplement her HP sustaining power, and Duel/Doom disable Damage Block so she loses one of a completed Vanguard's prime benefits.
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On August 09 2014 02:32 Skyro wrote:
What about if you are your team's initiator? You can't build glass in that case. Do you go for Vanguard so you can immediately push towers after ganks/teamfights?
LC is surprisingly much tankier than given credit for. Between her stat gains, press the attack, and MoC + wand, it's actually incredibly difficult to kill her if you don't burst her down instantly.
Maelstrom is just way 2gud on her to not get. Like, it's legitimately one of the most cost efficient items in the game, and it just makes it 100x easier for LC to farm. Not to mention, it's one of the few items that procs during MoC, so you can do crazy amounts of damage if you get lucky procs.
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Obviously I meant for the purpose of tanking tower damage/creeps (like Axe). And LC feels pretty damn glassy to me if you are your team's initiator since you're rushing Blink as well unless you have follow-up initiation from your team that can keep you from being immediately blown up.
And OO is on an 18s CD, it's not spammable. Besides I meant in the context of 'win gank/teamfight', immediately punish tower, not split pushing or whatever you are trying to say here.
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On August 09 2014 02:58 Skyro wrote:
Obviously I meant for the purpose of tanking tower damage/creeps (like Axe). And LC feels pretty damn glassy to me if you are your team's initiator since you're rushing Blink as well unless you have follow-up initiation from your team that can keep you from being immediately blown up.
And OO is on an 18s CD, it's not spammable. Besides I meant in the context of 'win gank/teamfight', immediately punish tower, not split pushing or whatever you are trying to say here.
You don't initiate with LC, you play her as an assassin and use the blink to jump weaker heroes. It's actually incredibly bad to initiate as LC for the reasons you listed. The only time you should be playing intiator is if you have a big AoE ult backing you up like Ravage or Chaotic Offering.
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On August 09 2014 02:57 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:32 Skyro wrote:
What about if you are your team's initiator? You can't build glass in that case. Do you go for Vanguard so you can immediately push towers after ganks/teamfights? LC is surprisingly much tankier than given credit for. Between her stat gains, press the attack, and MoC + wand, it's actually incredibly difficult to kill her if you don't burst her down instantly. Maelstrom is just way 2gud on her to not get. Like, it's legitimately one of the most cost efficient items in the game, and it just makes it 100x easier for LC to farm. Not to mention, it's one of the few items that procs during MoC, so you can do crazy amounts of damage if you get lucky procs.
So you still build glassy even if you are your team's initiator? Is the team coordination just high enough at 5k+ MMR that the follow up initiation is enough to keep you alive?
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On August 09 2014 03:00 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:58 Skyro wrote:
Obviously I meant for the purpose of tanking tower damage/creeps (like Axe). And LC feels pretty damn glassy to me if you are your team's initiator since you're rushing Blink as well unless you have follow-up initiation from your team that can keep you from being immediately blown up.
And OO is on an 18s CD, it's not spammable. Besides I meant in the context of 'win gank/teamfight', immediately punish tower, not split pushing or whatever you are trying to say here. You don't initiate with LC, you play her as an assassin and use the blink to jump weaker heroes. It's actually incredibly bad to initiate as LC for the reasons you listed. The only time you should be playing intiator is if you have a big AoE ult backing you up like Ravage or Chaotic Offering.
Yeah I know I was saying if you are essentially your team's only initiator. I know that's not optimal but I'm sure you've run into occasions where that was the case.
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On August 09 2014 03:01 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 03:00 superstartran wrote:On August 09 2014 02:58 Skyro wrote:
Obviously I meant for the purpose of tanking tower damage/creeps (like Axe). And LC feels pretty damn glassy to me if you are your team's initiator since you're rushing Blink as well unless you have follow-up initiation from your team that can keep you from being immediately blown up.
And OO is on an 18s CD, it's not spammable. Besides I meant in the context of 'win gank/teamfight', immediately punish tower, not split pushing or whatever you are trying to say here. You don't initiate with LC, you play her as an assassin and use the blink to jump weaker heroes. It's actually incredibly bad to initiate as LC for the reasons you listed. The only time you should be playing intiator is if you have a big AoE ult backing you up like Ravage or Chaotic Offering. Yeah I know I was saying if you are essentially your team's only initiator. I know that's not optimal but I'm sure you've run into occasions where that was the case.
Most of the time your offlaner is your initiator of some sort. Darkseer, Tide, Panda, w/e it is. Unless your team went ultra greedy, you should not be the initiation of the team. If you are, you need to counter-initiate and not go on the opposing team until they engage.
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Hm ok. So in your opinion it's basically never worth it to try to build her as an initiator at all unless you have very strong follow up initiation. Thanks.
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You still buy blink and build good items, u just don't initiate into multiple enemies without being pretty damn certain ur team has ur back.
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On August 09 2014 03:07 Skyro wrote:
Hm ok. So in your opinion it's basically never worth it to try to build her as an initiator at all unless you have very strong follow up initiation. Thanks.
No, you always build blink on her, it's so easy to kite her without it. The issue is that you can't be stupid and blink into the opposing team and expect your team to help out, especially if they don't have the tools to back you up. If you don't have a big aoe follow up, do not initiate ever. You can get stunned, hexed, etc. too easily. If VS/SD/OD are on the other team you will also be very sad. Wait until the fight starts, then go in and duel a hero. The only time you should initiate is in ultra late game situations when you have BKB + shit tons of damage and you are certain you can kill the hero in 2-3 seconds (assuming you have no AoE back-up).
In terms of ganks and shit, obviously go in and duel immediately if you can get easy pick offs.
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United States47024 Posts
I'd argue that your 10s BKB Duel can be used to initiate in certain games, particularly because there are a lot of lineups where if you Duel 1 guy with your 10s BKB going the others can't do shit about you. But that's pretty situational and lineup dependent.
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On August 09 2014 05:27 TheYango wrote:
I'd argue that your 10s BKB Duel can be used to initiate in certain games, particularly because there are a lot of lineups where if you Duel 1 guy with your 10s BKB going the others can't do shit about you. But that's pretty situational and lineup dependent.
That's an extremely rare situation. The only time I do that (as in 2nd BKB item) is if I have to lock down something like Tide and they don't have BKB piercing disables.
It does happen from time to time, but most of time you will see lame heroes like Batrider/Bane/Beastmaster/insert other lame BKB piercing disable hero. Not to mention other heroes make it a nightmare for you to duel people, like OD/VS/SD.
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Is there math that supports treads over phase? My gut instinct was always that she has two as buffs already, and that her passive made the damage count more. Treads is obviously nice for straight-up fights once she has bonus damage, but shouldn't her opening items maximize early duel potential?
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On August 09 2014 08:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Is there math that supports treads over phase? My gut instinct was always that she has two as buffs already, and that her passive made the damage count more. Treads is obviously nice for straight-up fights once she has bonus damage, but shouldn't her opening items maximize early duel potential?
Treads ASPD scales nicely with her mid to late game damage (the more duel damage she gets, the better treads becomes) and the ability to tread switch while using bottle/soulring/press the attack makes it a much more viable option. Chasing shouldn't be a problem when you have blink dagger, and not to mention I'm pretty sure MoC animation finishes faster with aspd (I haven't actually fully ever tested this out, it's just from what I've seen from actual play), which means more autos during duels, etc.
Treads in general is just a better option overall due to the utility you get from it and how it scales better later on. Phase gives you extra oomph damage early and some chasing power, but it drops off quickly.
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United States47024 Posts
Phase is slightly stronger in laning and pre-Blink, but post-Blink, Phase doesn't do that much that outweighs Treads' more comfortable lategame.
On August 09 2014 08:10 superstartran wrote:
I'm pretty sure MoC animation finishes faster with aspd (I haven't actually fully ever tested this out, it's just from what I've seen from actual play), which means more autos during duels, etc.
It does finish faster but it doesn't benefit the scenario you're describing because MoC attacks don't function off your normal autoattack timer. The MoC attack doesn't change or interrupt when your next attack would normally come, so you're not gaining more benefit from it by having AS.
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I have a thing about building BKB early with any hero.
MoC is fine I think, I haven't seen many LC's do it in pub but now that I'm thinking about it it's rather nice. The thing with LC I think is, she has a lot of items/skills that requires you to use before you even duel. Up to 3 or 4 at a time and unless you get help to stall the other team a tad, sometimes having too much will deny that Duel opportunity.
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I like the idea of the medaillon, legion profits well of the -armor and of the mana regen to use spells more often.
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I think on paper treads looks like the better item (scales better, benefits of tread switching) but LC's game depends a lot on those early dual kills, and having phase movement buff (especially pre blink) + the early game damage I find can often help secure those kills you otherwise wouldn't have.
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Honestly if you have that Blink Dagger and OO maxed you shouldn't have too much trouble doing right click damage pre-duel. A good rune and side lane ganking helps pre-blink.
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You aren't gonna get your blink dagger before you hit level 6 so..
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United States47024 Posts
Probably a lot longer in lane because it's very greedy and very unlikely that you'd skip Boots+Bottle before your Blink. Also, as is the case with most heroes, Phase Boots are slightly stronger in lane given the value of extra damage during basic lane interactions.
It comes down to a matter of how the game is going and who you're against. Treads only comes into their own after you have Blink, but whether you want the earlier power from Phase depends on how close your lane matchup is.
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On August 11 2014 00:25 KOFgokuon wrote:
You aren't gonna get your blink dagger before you hit level 6 so..
A good rune and side lane ganking helps pre-blink.
Phase having better damage to harass/weaken them down and its important ability aside, I thought OOO's 7 second move speed buff to be quite satisfactory when catching up to someone in a 1v1 lane alongside overall PTA DPS with treads during the Ultimate.
And from non experience:
Not that I was disregarding phase, I'm sure there's definitely match-ups where you 100% want phase like against NP (essentially easy because of OOO but still) to just slaughter him ASAP without being blocked by creeps.
Also re: Blink timings, maybe having your team (yourself too if Radiant) stacking (one or both the) hard/medium camp might help if you want a quick blink outside of farming lane or heroes. With an Enigma's E to cut down trees (or 2 QB charges for Dire?) you can probs do some sick flash farming with your Q when you double pull.
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Is it me or is this hero just insane with Venge? Swap is a great way to get easy duels before blink and Waves amor reduction and vengeance aura means you auto win duels. Is this just me and Venge is just average and if so what heroes really do synergise with LC.
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On August 11 2014 13:52 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
Is it me or is this hero just insane with Venge? Swap is a great way to get easy duels before blink and Waves amor reduction and vengeance aura means you auto win duels. Is this just me and Venge is just average and if so what heroes really do synergise with LC.
I think LC is great with a number of heroes. Skywrath, Earthshaker(can cut people off with fissure), venge, Bane, Tree. Anyone that can help her set up and turn the tide of a duel is super helpful pre blink and anyone with a debuff is great post blink.
I also agree that bottle -> treads is the best way to go. The minimal damage from phase boots doesn't do a lot of a hero whos core item is blink. Then I normally go Deso or AC, depending on how much damage I need to dump or if we need to murder towers.
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Was shadow blade ever an item of choice on LC over blink?
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On August 17 2014 05:56 BoZiffer wrote:
Was shadow blade ever an item of choice on LC over blink?
yes. a bad choice
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What is a reasonable Blink timing to shoot for assuming you go bottle --> treads --> blink
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On August 17 2014 12:48 BoZiffer wrote:
What is a reasonable Blink timing to shoot for assuming you go bottle --> treads --> blink
basically the same as any blink initiator that plays mid ( puck, magnus etc ). Blink timing on pro level would be around 8 minutes, so for pubs most likely between 9-10 minutes.
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Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's.
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So 10-11 mins isn't terrible is it?
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Of course not. But it also depends the skill level of the match.
2 minute delay means your opponents core heroes have 650-800 more gold to finish their first core items. So if you miss your timing an early mek could ruin the game. Your duel priority should change to mek. carrier and your teammates should focus that hero to help bursting him down (+5 armor from mek is great deal at the beginning stage of the game.)
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On August 18 2014 11:49 BoZiffer wrote:
So 10-11 mins isn't terrible is it?
Ideally you want a 8 minute Blink while skipping Ptreads, but that's a really rare case where you outright won mid or you have an extreme advantage (speaking of which LC pretty much roflcopter stomps Tinkers who misplay from level 1-3).
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On August 18 2014 10:45 Belisarius wrote:
Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's.
Why do you really want your treads? I'd get a blink rush over treads first any day, especially when your first few duels should be done with allies.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 19 2014 01:53 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 10:45 Belisarius wrote:
Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's. Why do you really want your treads? I'd get a blink rush over treads first any day, especially when your first few duels should be done with allies.
exactly. quicker blink duel = more kills/dmg early = accelerated farm.
if you're having a hard time farming and you have good set up for the duel, i would argue that you can go treads first however. but if you're free farming, get that blink and go ham with your team to snowball.
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On August 19 2014 01:53 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 10:45 Belisarius wrote:
Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's. Why do you really want your treads? I'd get a blink rush over treads first any day, especially when your first few duels should be done with allies.
The problem with switch treads is that you want that attack speed in the duel and that extra HP and damage. Unless other heroes that rush blink(Puck, Tide, Beast), you are not only dropping your ult, but you are also going to be doing a lot of auto attacks and taking hits. Unless you have a support like skywrath who can blow the person the fuck up when you hit the duel, you want that extra staying power. Winning the duel is nice, but if you are bursted down afterwords, its not worth it.
So its really support dependent and how much help you will get in the duels.
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On August 19 2014 02:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 01:53 DucK- wrote:On August 18 2014 10:45 Belisarius wrote:
Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's. Why do you really want your treads? I'd get a blink rush over treads first any day, especially when your first few duels should be done with allies. The problem with switch treads is that you want that attack speed in the duel and that extra HP and damage. Unless other heroes that rush blink(Puck, Tide, Beast), you are not only dropping your ult, but you are also going to be doing a lot of auto attacks and taking hits. Unless you have a support like skywrath who can blow the person the fuck up when you hit the duel, you want that extra staying power. Winning the duel is nice, but if you are bursted down afterwords, its not worth it. So its really support dependent and how much help you will get in the duels.
Its always worth it to die as long as you win the duel. What matters is stacking that damage up asap, and a faster blink helps in that. The only reason you upgrade your boots before blink is for laning purposes, of which you would get phase instead because treads does not help your laning much.
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On August 19 2014 02:36 DucK- wrote:
Its always worth it to die as long as you win the duel.
No it really isn't. During your death timer you should always be able to farm 10/14/18 dmg worth of items.
The whole point is to snowball, and dying fucks up ur snowballing real bad. Its okay to die once or twice post-duel if you get damage and force them to heavy commit and ur team come out ahead overall, but just trading ur life for duel damage ends up in u being super underfarmed and useless.
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On August 19 2014 02:36 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 02:20 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2014 01:53 DucK- wrote:On August 18 2014 10:45 Belisarius wrote:
Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's. Why do you really want your treads? I'd get a blink rush over treads first any day, especially when your first few duels should be done with allies. The problem with switch treads is that you want that attack speed in the duel and that extra HP and damage. Unless other heroes that rush blink(Puck, Tide, Beast), you are not only dropping your ult, but you are also going to be doing a lot of auto attacks and taking hits. Unless you have a support like skywrath who can blow the person the fuck up when you hit the duel, you want that extra staying power. Winning the duel is nice, but if you are bursted down afterwords, its not worth it. So its really support dependent and how much help you will get in the duels. Its always worth it to die as long as you win the duel. What matters is stacking that damage up asap, and a faster blink helps in that. The only reason you upgrade your boots before blink is for laning purposes, of which you would get phase instead because treads does not help your laning much.
What snowman said and also you can't control who gets that kill gold. It doesn't help you if you kill off a support, but PA keeps finishing you off for the first few duels. Now your dead with +10 damage and she is PA with another kill under her belt. Its not good getting trades if you end up feeding their cores gold and levels.
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What are good items to get on LC post dual nerf? Now that passives work, is it worth getting stuff like basher, or lifesteal from helm or vlads, or just stick to the same old items?
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After the blademail, dagger and bkb you can get HH the evasion is great and you proc your passive because it hits as it is counted as an attack before it was considered critical or evasion etc... the disarm use is awesome to pop linkens and ofc to manfight even the hardest carries and the only good orb on her is lifeleach for me everything else is waste of slot and money
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If you diasarm them then dual, does the dual override the disarm and let them attack? I know that used to happen.
Edit: ^ also what is lifeleech?
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Oh sorry Im a bit old school i meant lifesteal  and if you disarm the target or you are disarmed before duel you hit each other but if you get laser in the face or he uses etherial blade on you or himself you will hit but do no dmg. The disarm is not passive ability and is disabled by duel.
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On August 19 2014 02:36 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 02:20 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2014 01:53 DucK- wrote:On August 18 2014 10:45 Belisarius wrote:
Most blink initiators skip upgraded boots now, but legion actually wants her treads, so her blink will be slightly slower than a puck's. Why do you really want your treads? I'd get a blink rush over treads first any day, especially when your first few duels should be done with allies. The problem with switch treads is that you want that attack speed in the duel and that extra HP and damage. Unless other heroes that rush blink(Puck, Tide, Beast), you are not only dropping your ult, but you are also going to be doing a lot of auto attacks and taking hits. Unless you have a support like skywrath who can blow the person the fuck up when you hit the duel, you want that extra staying power. Winning the duel is nice, but if you are bursted down afterwords, its not worth it. So its really support dependent and how much help you will get in the duels. Its always worth it to die as long as you win the duel. What matters is stacking that damage up asap, and a faster blink helps in that. The only reason you upgrade your boots before blink is for laning purposes, of which you would get phase instead because treads does not help your laning much.
If I had a mid LC with this mentality i'd just pick pudge roaming and fuck around because the game is lost anyway.
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is legion commander jungle still viable for 6.82b?
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On October 14 2014 09:40 CodeskyE wrote:
is legion commander jungle still viable for 6.82b?
no.
it depends on their picks, but in general lc + lich/sky dual off is one of the best ways to lane her
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On October 14 2014 09:40 CodeskyE wrote:
is legion commander jungle still viable for 6.82b?
You can do it but I don't think it is efficient.
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Im not sold on the bone7 blademail build yet. Like, an armlet should potentially offer so much more for about the same pricetag in combination with the two healingskills.
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bone7 didn't invent blademail on LC that shit's been done since the hero came out
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In duel blademail makes LC to be able to counter every hero and punish everyone who tries to nuke you and armlet does not help vs hard hitting heroes like PA...
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I think blade mail pretty much means you win any duel solo regardless of how farmed the enemy hero is unless bkb got activated.
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I like blademail but I wouldn't get it every time or early on. Mid to late-game no?
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I like blademail a bunch on her, much more so than BKB. She already has pretty good fight mobility with OO and PtA and blademail comes up so much earlier with a better buildup. When I go blademail, I generally get it after my first damage item (almost always deso or maelstrom).
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Blademail is much stronger now that duel no longer disables passives. It allows you to lock down the carry and turn their damage back on them.
When duel disabled passives, most carries didn't have enough firepower to really wreck themselves on it, but now I they do even in the midgame. It also helps deter supports from nuking you.
It kind of feels like a super-cheap cross between armlet and bkb. It helps you solokill things, and it helps you stay alive in big fights.
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On October 17 2014 10:39 Belisarius wrote:
Blademail is much stronger now that duel no longer disables passives. It allows you to lock down the carry and turn their damage back on them.
When duel disabled passives, most carries didn't have enough firepower to really wreck themselves on it, but now I they do even in the midgame. It also helps deter supports from nuking you.
It kind of feels like a super-cheap cross between armlet and bkb. It helps you solokill things, and it helps you stay alive in big fights.
Maelstrom/Blademail builds are pretty silly now on LC, especially against crit heroes like PA.
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Well, 1 month have passed since she is allowed in -cm. How well is Tresdin doing so far?
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I've been playing a lot of OFFLANE LC after my Troll Warlord phase...
General item build:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gUXvIz1.png)
Start : Tango/Salve/Clarity/Stout/Branch (and try to get a ward from a support).
BO : Phase/Quelling/Stick -- (optional: Urn/Basi/Drums) -- Blink -- Hyperstone/Mael/Blademail -- (BKB) -- Mjol/AC/Daed/MKB.
Skill : Max OO, value point in MoC, max PtA second, get Duel normally.
I run phase over treads for positioning and lane dominance in the off-lane. LC lacks early damage so phase covers that, and attack speed is sufficient through PtA for the time being. Blink dagger is the most important item, and I've definitely had some late dagger pick-ups, so phase is pretty much mandatory to get into position until then. I'm missing some sort of mana regen in my build, but she has high INT gain and you shouldn't really be spamming her skills. I think an urn or basi would be fine but I've been doing all right without it using the occasional clarity or relying on allies' arcanes.
AS through Hyper to AC/Mjol is going to be the item choice determinant. Armlet is a good item, but I'd rather just get the mael or hyper to build into mjol. I don't feel strongly about blademail, and I dislike BKB because it adds zero attack speed and you can't PtA yourself after the fact. The frequent MKB/blademail pick-ups above are against the FotM PA picks, but I'd rather skip them if I could.
I usually won't have reliable farm versus 2-3 heroes zoning me but it's fine as long as I get exp and don't die. Obviously there are some games where I just destroy the carry and support with OO and phase diving (320 base MS) but the norm is to soak exp and find money through good kills or jungling to get dagger. You can stack two camps at once with the long-range OO to speed up your dagger. Keep a TP ready if they dive other towers to get easy OO/duel kills.
Once you get dagger you need to sneak around with an ally and secure kills. Buy wards and place them in their jungle. If someone weak pops up on the minimap, that's your target. Your duels should be in-and-out to minimize any unforeseen variables. If you're not 100% sure on winning the duel and getting out safely, don't do it! Offlane LC is not an initiation hero. This is a pick-off hero, especially with this glass cannon build. If you're in the fray, you will die. You need to dance around big battles using OO on big clumps until no one will notice that you just blinked in and picked someone off.
It's not uncommon to end the 30-40 minute games with 150-200+ duel damage and highest HD/TD as a position 3 LC.
Lemme know if there are better item choices or builds! Thanks for readin'!
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phase if u want to just win lane harder is fine, but i wud still recommend treads coz mana issues and u need int treads and ure gonna get blink soon anyway. no idea why u arent getting bkb u will need it in higher rating or harder games... there is the deso/ac path and blademail/mjollnir both are good u have to know which one is better which game... blink duel with bkb+blademail+mjollnir does terrible terrible dmg to enemies in a teamfight, they cant exactly ignore u and they cant exactly attack u
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On December 04 2014 11:47 ChunderBoy wrote:
phase if u want to just win lane harder is fine, but i wud still recommend treads coz mana issues and u need int treads and ure gonna get blink soon anyway. no idea why u arent getting bkb u will need it in higher rating or harder games... there is the deso/ac path and blademail/mjollnir both are good u have to know which one is better which game... blink duel with bkb+blademail+mjollnir does terrible terrible dmg to enemies in a teamfight, they cant exactly ignore u and they cant exactly attack u
Completely agree I just want to add that you can always prebuff the pta before bkb and get in with duel as well as HH is really great as it still procs your moc but you dont get hit and a good way to counter ranged kiters like viper or drow.
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Wouldn't you want to go bottle offlane anyway?
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SoCal8910 Posts
possibly. are you up against a trilane? if so, soul ring works just fine bc you will get an overwhelming odds and a press the attack each use. chances are that 2nd support will be roaming to secure the safe lane rune. treads facilitate the soul ring use more so, as well.
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On December 04 2014 11:47 ChunderBoy wrote:
phase if u want to just win lane harder is fine, but i wud still recommend treads coz mana issues and u need int treads and ure gonna get blink soon anyway. no idea why u arent getting bkb u will need it in higher rating or harder games... there is the deso/ac path and blademail/mjollnir both are good u have to know which one is better which game... blink duel with bkb+blademail+mjollnir does terrible terrible dmg to enemies in a teamfight, they cant exactly ignore u and they cant exactly attack u
There's always like one or two duels a game when I have bkb, Mjollnir, Blademail, where I forget to pop one of these ontop of her attack speed buff when I duel. Its pretty funny in a sad way.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
same, sometimes i just focus on getting the duel off
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SoCal8910 Posts
ya sometimes you're looking for that perfect duel opportunity and the moment is there for just a second and that's not long enough to get everything on yourself.
I have found that quickcast has solved this issue a great deal
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United States47024 Posts
I don't even necessarily like using PtA before Duel lategame. Early-midgame you need the damage to finish kills but lategame when you have high Duel damage and items, it can be worth it to hold it to purge debuffs or remove a stun from a teammate.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I guess in that same vein, you wont even need to necessarily activate the blademail at that stage either, saving it for after the duel and bkb wear off.
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unless ur like dueling a support who has no buddies around you pretty much always want that blademail going as soon as you jump.
vs more farmed people it helps win the duel, and if there's other people around then it punishes them if they try to burst you in the duel.
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Late game you want to pick up a Daedalus if you're not facing a carry that doesn't pick up Evasion or doesn't have it innately. Mjoll/Duel Damage/Daedalus is a pretty sick combination when you're dueling a carry.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
did duel ever disable crit?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 05 2014 22:24 ahswtini wrote:
did duel ever disable crit?
IIRC, only UAMs and passives were originally disabled. now, everything works.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 05 2014 22:24 ahswtini wrote:
did duel ever disable crit?
It did.
Hard-coded ladder Doom in War3 disables Crit, Bash, Cleave, Evasion, Damage Block, Permanent Invisibility, and some orbs. All of these would be affected by Duel and Doom prior to 6.82 since they use Doom as the base spell (Duel ONLY used these, while any additional passives disabled by Doom were added on top of that).
6.82 essentially changed Duel and Doom to use regular silence + inventory lock rather than hardcoded Doom.
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SoCal8910 Posts
would you consider that a buff or a nerf to LC? on one hand she can use orbs and on the other hand, other people can use passives like crit or backtrack which was a reason to pick her vs certain heroes, as a disable
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On December 07 2014 00:19 BluemoonSC wrote:
would you consider that a buff or a nerf to LC? on one hand she can use orbs and on the other hand, other people can use passives like crit or backtrack which was a reason to pick her vs certain heroes, as a disable
Overall it is a buff but you have to be careful about how you utilize it.
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Eh how is it a buff? You could already use maelstrom/mjollnir as well as deso pre-change, I feel like disabling stuff like PA evasion for 4 seconds or void's passives was sick good, and much better than being able to use lifesteal/basher/evasion. Though blademail vs PA post change sounds pretty hilarious.
@paper why do you get MKB in so many games on her? Are you just vsing that many PAs? Doesn't really give any attack speed or survivability and crit seems like it would be better for damage..
Edit: Even disabling bashers, crits, evasion etc from items for both heroes pre-change I feel like was sick good, cause you would itemize around it (by avoiding those kinds of items), then go you and duel their carry and it essentially made their daedalus/basher/butterfly close to worthless.
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Yep, PA shows up in most of my games
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United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2014 14:36 Ryder. wrote:
Eh how is it a buff? You could already use maelstrom/mjollnir as well as deso pre-change, I feel like disabling stuff like PA evasion for 4 seconds or void's passives was sick good, and much better than being able to use lifesteal/basher/evasion. Though blademail vs PA post change sounds pretty hilarious.
It never disabled Backtrack. Only Doom's Doom disabled Backtrack. It did disable Time Lock though, which is still a big deal.
Basically anything not on the list of "hard-coded ladder Doom" disables I listed above applied only to Doom's Doom and not Duel.
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Before the nerf duel was anti carry spell now you need to actually chose the spots more carefully and late game you can still kill any carry in duel but id you have a nice dmg stacked.
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On December 07 2014 14:36 Ryder. wrote:
Eh how is it a buff? You could already use maelstrom/mjollnir as well as deso pre-change, I feel like disabling stuff like PA evasion for 4 seconds or void's passives was sick good, and much better than being able to use lifesteal/basher/evasion. Though blademail vs PA post change sounds pretty hilarious.
@paper why do you get MKB in so many games on her? Are you just vsing that many PAs? Doesn't really give any attack speed or survivability and crit seems like it would be better for damage..
Edit: Even disabling bashers, crits, evasion etc from items for both heroes pre-change I feel like was sick good, cause you would itemize around it (by avoiding those kinds of items), then go you and duel their carry and it essentially made their daedalus/basher/butterfly close to worthless.
It's a buff in the offensive sense. It makes LC much more stronger as a snowball hero because it forces heroes to manfight her when she has an item advantage and she can just murder them badly.
Deso did not work pre-change it only worked if you hit first and then Dueled.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2014 02:21 superstartran wrote:
Deso did not work pre-change it only worked if you hit first and then Dueled.
Doom/Duel never disabled Deso. Orb of Corruption is one of the exceptions to Orbs being disabled by Doom. At least as of mid-late last year, this interaction was consistent between DotA 1 and DotA 2, so while it's possible that Valve broke this interaction in 6.80/6.81, I don't remember that being the case.
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On December 08 2014 02:21 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 14:36 Ryder. wrote:
Eh how is it a buff? You could already use maelstrom/mjollnir as well as deso pre-change, I feel like disabling stuff like PA evasion for 4 seconds or void's passives was sick good, and much better than being able to use lifesteal/basher/evasion. Though blademail vs PA post change sounds pretty hilarious.
@paper why do you get MKB in so many games on her? Are you just vsing that many PAs? Doesn't really give any attack speed or survivability and crit seems like it would be better for damage..
Edit: Even disabling bashers, crits, evasion etc from items for both heroes pre-change I feel like was sick good, cause you would itemize around it (by avoiding those kinds of items), then go you and duel their carry and it essentially made their daedalus/basher/butterfly close to worthless. It's a buff in the offensive sense. It makes LC much more stronger as a snowball hero because it forces heroes to manfight her when she has an item advantage and she can just murder them badly. Deso did not work pre-change it only worked if you hit first and then Dueled.
What? That makes no sense, why does it only force heroes to man fight her post-change? 'Forcing heroes to man fight her' is what duel always did in the most literal sense, and it doesn't explain why allowing enemies to crit/bash/evade you is somehow better for LC (outside of blademail if you manage to duel them before they BKB). Now you actually need to be careful when you duel enemy carries cause it can back fire so hard if you are not careful.
It's not like its really changed LCs itemization anyway, people still tend to build blink/bkb/blademail/AC/mjollnir most of the time.
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On December 08 2014 17:44 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2014 02:21 superstartran wrote:On December 07 2014 14:36 Ryder. wrote:
Eh how is it a buff? You could already use maelstrom/mjollnir as well as deso pre-change, I feel like disabling stuff like PA evasion for 4 seconds or void's passives was sick good, and much better than being able to use lifesteal/basher/evasion. Though blademail vs PA post change sounds pretty hilarious.
@paper why do you get MKB in so many games on her? Are you just vsing that many PAs? Doesn't really give any attack speed or survivability and crit seems like it would be better for damage..
Edit: Even disabling bashers, crits, evasion etc from items for both heroes pre-change I feel like was sick good, cause you would itemize around it (by avoiding those kinds of items), then go you and duel their carry and it essentially made their daedalus/basher/butterfly close to worthless. It's a buff in the offensive sense. It makes LC much more stronger as a snowball hero because it forces heroes to manfight her when she has an item advantage and she can just murder them badly. Deso did not work pre-change it only worked if you hit first and then Dueled. What? That makes no sense, why does it only force heroes to man fight her post-change? 'Forcing heroes to man fight her' is what duel always did in the most literal sense, and it doesn't explain why allowing enemies to crit/bash/evade you is somehow better for LC (outside of blademail if you manage to duel them before they BKB). Now you actually need to be careful when you duel enemy carries cause it can back fire so hard if you are not careful. It's not like its really changed LCs itemization anyway, people still tend to build blink/bkb/blademail/AC/mjollnir most of the time.
Yeah but before since you couldn't really snowball and kill people fast it was actually not as easy to snowball as it is now. With a Mjoll/Daedalus after Blink Dagger you can pretty much just instantly assassinate a hero as long as you get a crit off. There's plenty of different hilarious ways to play the hero, and with the new changes to duel you can do some seriously funny stuff.
On December 08 2014 03:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2014 02:21 superstartran wrote:
Deso did not work pre-change it only worked if you hit first and then Dueled. Doom/Duel never disabled Deso. Orb of Corruption is one of the exceptions to Orbs being disabled by Doom. At least as of mid-late last year, this interaction was consistent between DotA 1 and DotA 2, so while it's possible that Valve broke this interaction in 6.80/6.81, I don't remember that being the case.
When they first ported LC I remember desolater actually not working how it should have. Like for example Feast from Lifestealer shouldn't have been disabled, but it was in Dota 2. Lot of weird shit that should have been muted/not muted.
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United States47024 Posts
Mjoll was always bugged to work during Duel, even though it shouldn't. It was a long-standing bug that applied to Doom as well and happened to carry over to Duel when they released LC (and it never got fixed before the 6.82 changes). Amusingly enough, Agha Doom STILL fails to disable Mael/Mjoll.
On December 09 2014 10:31 superstartran wrote:
When they first ported LC I remember desolater actually not working how it should have. Like for example Feast from Lifestealer shouldn't have been disabled, but it was in Dota 2. Lot of weird shit that should have been muted/not muted.
Yeah but they fixed a lot of them pretty quickly. Other than Mjoll which I mentioned above, most stuff worked the way it should have by the time the change was made.
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Most important part of the new patch: LC's hair color confirmed.
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I've been going offlane LC and rushing soul ring to get cs+harras carry. Out of the 8 games I've only lost to sniper 2 times. How the heck you deal with that hero? Shrapnel stops you from getting cs with your speed from Q so easily it's laughable...
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How will Legion's build change with Silver Edge? It's a lot more damage to use for duels, plus it disables passives.
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I think probably just treads into shadowblade into silver edge with an armlet or mael in there if you need to have better stats or want to farm faster. Although, I'd probably still go blink in some circumstances. If you do pick up a silver edge, it'll make buying an MKB vs something like a PA much less important, although you probably(?) still want to pick it up at some point.
Although I'm looking at this from the perspective of a mid/safelane LC rather than an offlane LC.
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Nothing changed with silver edge. You still get it the same reasons why you want shadow blade prior. That means you better have a good reason why you are skipping blink.
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You better have a good early game if you plan on getting silver edge in a reasonable time.
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Sadly Silver edge is priority number one not only on LC but heroes like slark who farm faster and you again become useless in most of the cases if you are not snowballing from mid or safelane.
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On April 30 2015 15:06 SatsuinoHado wrote:
Sadly Silver edge is priority number one not only on LC but heroes like slark who farm faster and you again become useless in most of the cases if you are not snowballing from mid or safelane.
It's been awhile since I've played LC since she fell out of the meta pretty hard recently, but I think she still farms at a decent pace, and shes a hero that can retreat to the jungle pretty early on without needing some form of lifesteal.
But LC is one of those heroes where I think you don't want to try to retard rice on her anyway, you want to be moving around the map securing duels and getting kills with your team, and only falling back to farm when you need to. Shes a very aggressive carry, much like Sven or Tiny.
So I think just getting like treads and a shadow blade and having heroes like Lion or AA that can help secure early duels is enough to get a silver edge, and from there just acting aggressive and controlling the map is fine.
Im really looking forward to LC being relevant again hopefully, but I feel really disappointed by her aghs upgrade. I think it would only be relevant early game when you can't really finish a duel by yourself, but mid-game it seems like it would drop off heavily unless you're extremely underfarmed. Just got to wait and see until 6.84 hits live to see how LC turns out.
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On April 30 2015 21:34 OrionTEK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 15:06 SatsuinoHado wrote:
Sadly Silver edge is priority number one not only on LC but heroes like slark who farm faster and you again become useless in most of the cases if you are not snowballing from mid or safelane. It's been awhile since I've played LC since she fell out of the meta pretty hard recently, but I think she still farms at a decent pace, and shes a hero that can retreat to the jungle pretty early on without needing some form of lifesteal. But LC is one of those heroes where I think you don't want to try to retard rice on her anyway, you want to be moving around the map securing duels and getting kills with your team, and only falling back to farm when you need to. Shes a very aggressive carry, much like Sven or Tiny. So I think just getting like treads and a shadow blade and having heroes like Lion or AA that can help secure early duels is enough to get a silver edge, and from there just acting aggressive and controlling the map is fine. Im really looking forward to LC being relevant again hopefully, but I feel really disappointed by her aghs upgrade. I think it would only be relevant early game when you can't really finish a duel by yourself, but mid-game it seems like it would drop off heavily unless you're extremely underfarmed. Just got to wait and see until 6.84 hits live to see how LC turns out.
I still play her all the time. I already tried on the test server with silvers edge and its really great. Sadly with SE you need 100% something for mana like bottle or soul ring because if you want to be active you cant sustain that kind of mana. And with the new +10% bounty on kills and the nerf on so many of the arch nemesis heroes like troll I will be more than happy from the patch. However aghs is useless as shit I bet she will get some kind of buff like semi mute on the passives or smt with that aghs later on the patches if Icefrog wants this item to be even remotely relevant for her as for now all your money are spend early for exact items that are needed to be efficient.
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I can see the use of Aghs. 4 team mates with Etheral Blade and Eul's Sceptre. Permanent stun since nobody is doing damage. Ultimate trolling item.
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— Base damage increased by 4
— Overwhelming Odds cooldown reduced from 18 to 15
— Press The Attack cast time reduced from 0.3 to 0.2
— Fixed Legion Commander sometimes auto-attacking nearby units after Duel ends instead of continuing to attack the dueled target
• The PtA change is pretty big because prepping for duels pre-blink by using as many relevant actives as possible (PtA/BM/Mjol/BKB) was a little hard. I still usually just PTA/BM though.
• SB/SE is awful because (1) the burden is on you to avoid potentially sentried areas and (2) you can't prep your actives for duels. Smoking & PTA/BM/blink will delete their 1 position from the game with no warning.
• 320 ms + OO ms with a value point in MoC @ level 2 is like a guaranteed first blood on idiots who think they can trade.
• This hero is gonna be big guys!!!!!!1
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whenever i pick lc for offlane, i always end up wondering why i didnt pick beastmaster
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On September 29 2015 19:12 Erasme wrote:
whenever i pick lc for offlane, i always end up wondering why i didnt pick beastmaster
1 snowballs better than the other though. And 1 can delete the fattest of carries if game goes good.
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Because people miss use LC she is not 5 sec disable but snowball nuker the same goes if you offlane storm and say well i could have picked clock and do much more. Shte is incredible in pickoffs and making space as well as making key heroes die in battles. And silvers edge is great vs heroes like pa/void/slark and even axe. You dont need the prebuff because you max OO and Moc with value point in pta by lvl 11 and the kill goes shadowblade hit/oo/duel thats around 0.5 sec more than enough to catch off guard 90% of heroes who just farm.
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When ever I play rmmr game legion is almost always picked and they go woods, 3k bracket. Its so terrible if they are on the other team we win if on our team we lose. Its always the same shit. She needs to be played in lane for fast lvlm 6, and blink so she can start ganking. She can catch up in jungle but its not efficient at all to start there from lvl 1 why do all these keeeeeds do this??
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
cuz all the other lanes have been highlighted, they dont want to play support therefore the only alternative is jungle ofc
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EPT![[image loading]](https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/12017550_1022056841172799_9161924252069435507_o.jpg)
