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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On January 03 2014 07:38 TheYango wrote:Rosh without Medallion is doable, it's just really slow and therefore really dangerous. Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 07:37 Firebolt145 wrote:
What I'm saying is distance is what dictates its new target. This is only true if all targets are attacking the tower, otherwise it prioritizes targets attacking it over targets that aren't. If the Wolf you a-clicked onto yourself is already beginning an attack on the neutral again when it re-selects aggro, it will be a valid target again.
Regarding tower, yes I'm aware of that and just forgot to mention it.
Regarding wolf, yes it is a valid target again, but it has already dropped aggro and the neutral will simply retarget whatever the closest enemy unit is that is attacking it, which is ideally the unit you're trying to gain aggro with.
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On January 03 2014 07:38 TheYango wrote:Rosh without Medallion is doable, it's just really slow and therefore really dangerous.
I usually do it at lvl 9 and can kill rosh within 45 sec. Actually, this is not my main point, I really think getting stout makes jungling more stable and safer and is not slower than RoB first.
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United States42663 Posts
You get the RoB for the third wolf summon. You need that mana regen early to get the third set (1st in fountain, second at 1:02, third when using wolves to tank in the medium at like 1:40). Lycan is really mana dependent.
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For the record, even if there are finer points of the guide that are being debated, it's quite well written and useful for medium levels pubs like me!
Just played 5 games trying this out, and it worked really well for me! Even with minor harassment I was still able to be a powerhouse each game, and the last game I totally carried a feeder-team to victory.
vlads -> medallion -> rosh -> next item or two -> pushing towers/rax/eating people works well.
Thanks for the guide.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 03 2014 08:06 Chaosquo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 07:38 TheYango wrote:On January 03 2014 07:27 KwarK wrote:
How do you rosh without the medallion? Rosh without Medallion is doable, it's just really slow and therefore really dangerous. I usually do it at lvl 9 and can kill rosh within 45 sec. Actually, this is not my main point, I really think getting stout makes jungling more stable and safer and is not slower than RoB first.
45 seconds is a long time. I wouldn't consider that anything to write home about, especially since Vlad's+Medallion does it in under 30s without using Howl or Ulti (you can't reasonably use Howl because a random Howl with no fights/pushes is a dead giveaway, and using Ult makes it far riskier because you have no outs if you get found out).
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Someone test qb + stout and rob into qb for Vlad time
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On January 03 2014 09:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:06 Chaosquo wrote:On January 03 2014 07:38 TheYango wrote:On January 03 2014 07:27 KwarK wrote:
How do you rosh without the medallion? Rosh without Medallion is doable, it's just really slow and therefore really dangerous. I usually do it at lvl 9 and can kill rosh within 45 sec. Actually, this is not my main point, I really think getting stout makes jungling more stable and safer and is not slower than RoB first. 45 seconds is a long time. I wouldn't consider that anything to write home about, especially since Vlad's+Medallion does it in under 30s without using Howl or Ulti (you can't reasonably use Howl because a random Howl with no fights/pushes is a dead giveaway, and using Ult makes it far riskier because you have no outs if you get found out).
Not even that, if they ward your jungle and they don't see you in it, the timing isn't that hard to figure out. It's not like support these days are required to focus 100% on the lane, doesn't take much to peak you and check your item progression before that.
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Great write up Kwark. Lycan is quickly turning into my go-to pick for ranked soloqueue (when I dont random of course).
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On January 03 2014 09:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:06 Chaosquo wrote:On January 03 2014 07:38 TheYango wrote:On January 03 2014 07:27 KwarK wrote:
How do you rosh without the medallion? Rosh without Medallion is doable, it's just really slow and therefore really dangerous. I usually do it at lvl 9 and can kill rosh within 45 sec. Actually, this is not my main point, I really think getting stout makes jungling more stable and safer and is not slower than RoB first. 45 seconds is a long time. I wouldn't consider that anything to write home about, especially since Vlad's+Medallion does it in under 30s without using Howl or Ulti (you can't reasonably use Howl because a random Howl with no fights/pushes is a dead giveaway, and using Ult makes it far riskier because you have no outs if you get found out).
First off thanks to the OP for starting such a bitchin lycan jungle discussion, I've always wanted to learn to jungle properly with him but it's hard to find discussion as useful as this one has been.
I was just watching replays from OP's dotabuff, it takes ~40 seconds to kill rosh with vlads, brown boots, and medallion (and he used howl). An extra 5 seconds doesn't seem like a huge deal. If medallion only make rosh ~5 seconds faster I can see it being worth skipping for treads, but that kind of messes with the brown boots - necro - BoT build.
At least in the replays i just watched, even without being harassed in jungle, your hp is really low almost the entire time until you finish vlads. Seems kinda risky to me. At my lowly MMR most people don't harass me in the jungle too much so I can see this build stomping, but a set of tangos (after suicide ofc) would probably go a long way to making this build a lot safer from what i've seen in replays so far.
Edit: good god, I'm terrible at jungling lycan. I fuck up the micro every time lol. This is going to take some practice...
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United States47024 Posts
Roshan has 3 armor and Medallion reduces him to -3. Having Medallion is under all circumstances going to mean you finish Rosh 30% quicker, which is going to be a little less than 15 seconds saved on a 45 second Rosh with just Vlad's.
If you're seeing Kwark finish in longer than that, then either he's attempting Rosh at lower level than Chaosquo, didn't top off on mana to have a Wolf resummon, or got super unlucky with bashes. In all circumstances Medallion means you solo Rosh 30% quicker, there's absolutely no way for this to not be the case.
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On January 03 2014 13:24 TheYango wrote:
Roshan has 3 armor and Medallion reduces him to -3. Having Medallion is under all circumstances going to mean you finish Rosh 30% quicker, which is going to be a little less than 15 seconds saved on a 45 second Rosh with just Vlad's.
If you're seeing Kwark finish in longer than that, then either he's attempting Rosh at lower level than Chaosquo, didn't top off on mana to have a Wolf resummon, or got super unlucky with bashes. In all circumstances Medallion means you solo Rosh 30% quicker, there's absolutely no way for this to not be the case.
There are many ways for that not to be the case, if he has treads instead of medallion for example, the gap is halved
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United States47024 Posts
I meant having Medallion all other things being equal obviously. If it was Treads Vlad's vs. Vlad's Medallion, sure.
EDIT: It seems I misinterpreted Chaosquo's original statement, for some reason I thought he was doing Rosh before he finished his Treads. My mistake.
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On January 03 2014 08:11 KwarK wrote:
You get the RoB for the third wolf summon. You need that mana regen early to get the third set (1st in fountain, second at 1:02, third when using wolves to tank in the medium at like 1:40). Lycan is really mana dependent.
Thats why I get 1 clarity at the start to get the mana for this third summon, and I dont need any clarities afterwards until my rosh attempt.
On January 03 2014 13:36 TheYango wrote:
I meant having Medallion all other things being equal obviously. If it was Treads Vlad's vs. Vlad's Medallion, sure.
EDIT: It seems I misinterpreted Chaosquo's original statement, for some reason I thought he was doing Rosh before he finished his Treads. My mistake.
Yeah, Kwark gets brown boots, so he spends 1k on medallion on I spent 1k on boots upgrade. I just really didnt have a good experience with Necro 3 BoT, as your fighting power is quite weak and I couldnt avoid all fights. Maybe Medallion avoids that problem ..
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On January 03 2014 17:49 Chaosquo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:11 KwarK wrote:
You get the RoB for the third wolf summon. You need that mana regen early to get the third set (1st in fountain, second at 1:02, third when using wolves to tank in the medium at like 1:40). Lycan is really mana dependent. Thats why I get 1 clarity at the start to get the mana for this third summon, and I dont need any clarities afterwards until my rosh attempt. Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 13:36 TheYango wrote:
I meant having Medallion all other things being equal obviously. If it was Treads Vlad's vs. Vlad's Medallion, sure.
EDIT: It seems I misinterpreted Chaosquo's original statement, for some reason I thought he was doing Rosh before he finished his Treads. My mistake. Yeah, Kwark gets brown boots, so he spends 1k on medallion on I spent 1k on boots upgrade. I just really didnt have a good experience with Necro 3 BoT, as your fighting power is quite weak and I couldnt avoid all fights. Maybe Medallion avoids that problem ..
Fight power quite weak? Well yeah Medallion helps a ton, so that could be the issue. And I was the one suggesting the brown boots over power treads.
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after some initial successes about 10 or so games, I have drop like 5 in a row doing this. Every game my team gets rape before I can even kill roshan/first tower. leaving the team 4vs5 is not working out and I can't deal with the snowball effect when the score is like 15-0 in the other team's favor. This doesn't happen just once, but all 5 games in a row leads me to rethink the validity of this style.
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Im not sure that its possible to make lycan in to a significant early game force at all. he has no nukes and no stun (or any disable at all unless you count body blocking with wolves), so farming is pretty much the only way to go with him lol.
when you pick lycan your team just kind of has to play around the fact that they will be playing with four people until lycan hits his stride.
I think the problem your running into isnt the "style" but rather the nature of the hero.
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United States42663 Posts
Think of him like an AM or a PL that hits 20 minutes earlier.
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On January 03 2014 17:49 Chaosquo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:11 KwarK wrote:
You get the RoB for the third wolf summon. You need that mana regen early to get the third set (1st in fountain, second at 1:02, third when using wolves to tank in the medium at like 1:40). Lycan is really mana dependent. Thats why I get 1 clarity at the start to get the mana for this third summon, and I dont need any clarities afterwards until my rosh attempt. Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 13:36 TheYango wrote:
I meant having Medallion all other things being equal obviously. If it was Treads Vlad's vs. Vlad's Medallion, sure.
EDIT: It seems I misinterpreted Chaosquo's original statement, for some reason I thought he was doing Rosh before he finished his Treads. My mistake. Yeah, Kwark gets brown boots, so he spends 1k on medallion on I spent 1k on boots upgrade. I just really didnt have a good experience with Necro 3 BoT, as your fighting power is quite weak and I couldnt avoid all fights. Maybe Medallion avoids that problem ..
Can you please link your dotabuff so I can see how jungling with QB/stout/clarity start works out? I have a feeling it will be easier to learn with that method, I'm just horrible with micro lol learning to jungle lycan is kicking my ass.
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Ok I went and spent hours upon hours practicing against bots and while in a perfect situation (or with perfect micro) the basi method is superior the quelling/ring/tango/2clarity is so much easier to execute. And since playing some ranked solo q it seems like no matter what every game my jungle is interfered with and I have to play careful anyhow I am just going with that. Am 5-1 but I am exclusively transitioning into the splitpush necro3 bot style after jungle phase. ~8 min brown boots/vlads is the best I can manage even against bot but it seems to be good enough at <4k mmr. I should probably decide within each game whether to go carry or split push route, but I have just been practicing the one. For one thing, I never EVER seem to be on a team short of carries, and 2 people are awful at defending split push.
The best thing about these Lycan shenanigans as mentioned is that for solo q you pretty much just get to do your own thing, and once you start actually killing towers your team seems to be cool about it and let you be without too much rage.  Particpating in fights when necessary of course. Most importantly it is possible to have fun in games where you lose, VERY IMPORTANT IN DOTA. lol
Thanks for great guide and great discussion that prompted me to try a lot of stuff out by myself and learn and get better at dota!
Edit: Also small camp gets blocked a LOT so it is another advantage of using a method where you plan on doing medium
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On January 05 2014 12:37 xSJx wrote:
Can you please link your dotabuff so I can see how jungling with QB/stout/clarity start works out? I have a feeling it will be easier to learn with that method, I'm just horrible with micro lol learning to jungle lycan is kicking my ass.
http://dotabuff.com/players/114188202/matches?hero=lycan&game_mode=&match_type=real
http://dotabuff.com/players/133218104/matches?hero=lycan&game_mode=&match_type=real
In the second link you can also see why I stopped doing BoTs Necro 3
You still have to make sure you tank the right things with the right target, such as all piercing damage with your main hero.
On January 05 2014 16:13 Atreides wrote:Ok I went and spent hours upon hours practicing against bots and while in a perfect situation (or with perfect micro) the basi method is superior the quelling/ring/tango/2clarity is so much easier to execute. And since playing some ranked solo q it seems like no matter what every game my jungle is interfered with and I have to play careful anyhow I am just going with that. Am 5-1 but I am exclusively transitioning into the splitpush necro3 bot style after jungle phase. ~8 min brown boots/vlads is the best I can manage even against bot but it seems to be good enough at <4k mmr. I should probably decide within each game whether to go carry or split push route, but I have just been practicing the one. For one thing, I never EVER seem to be on a team short of carries, and 2 people are awful at defending split push. The best thing about these Lycan shenanigans as mentioned is that for solo q you pretty much just get to do your own thing, and once you start actually killing towers your team seems to be cool about it and let you be without too much rage. Particpating in fights when necessary of course. Most importantly it is possible to have fun in games where you lose, VERY IMPORTANT IN DOTA. lol Thanks for great guide and great discussion that prompted me to try a lot of stuff out by myself and learn and get better at dota! Edit: Also small camp gets blocked a LOT so it is another advantage of using a method where you plan on doing medium
quelling/ring/tango/2clarity is a terrible build imo, you could try qb/stout/clarity also with suicide at 3.
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EPT
