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Doom in the offlane is an auto-win vs 1v2 lanes because any good creep results in an auto loss, since most people are picking greedy carries that can't help zone like AM, Spectre, etc.
If you get either Wildkin, Ogre Magi, Regen Creep, Boulder Golems, Harpy, or Mana Burn you essentially auto win your lane if it's 1v2. 1v3 it depends on the heroes, but you're such a nuisance and a threat to the carry that if they don't stay in the lane against you, you will likely kill the enemy carry or force him to not farm. Either way you're still winning. Most of the time you're winning that lane so hard that you almost have free farm anyways, so as long as your safelane and mids aren't absolute dog shit you're going to win the game pretty handily.
His level 3 and level 5 timings are the big issues from the safelane or offlane really; most supports cannot do enough damage (they will be level 2 at best, possibly level 1 if they didn't deward the pull and or you're really fucking with their pulls).
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thoughts on octarine core? maybe as a 3rd item or something if you don't need aghs at that point (after like drums/(blink/shadowblade/sny)). all his cooldowns are nice to reduce, having the extra hp and mana pool is nice, though he'll desparately need armor before (blademail?solarcrest??) or after (shivas/ac/blademail?) it synergizes with shivas and blademail as well, the reduced cd is super nice
level 4 devour increases gpm by 150 if used on cd, with octarine it goes up to 200 (pays for itself in like 2 hours!!)
scorched earth heals a whole lot more when hitting multiple heroes with your octarine core
etc
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On October 21 2015 03:53 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
thoughts on octarine core? maybe as a 3rd item or something if you don't need aghs at that point (after like drums/(blink/shadowblade/sny)). all his cooldowns are nice to reduce, having the extra hp and mana pool is nice, though he'll desparately need armor before (blademail?solarcrest??) or after (shivas/ac/blademail?) it synergizes with shivas and blademail as well, the reduced cd is super nice
level 4 devour increases gpm by 150 if used on cd, with octarine it goes up to 200 (pays for itself in like 2 hours!!)
scorched earth heals a whole lot more when hitting multiple heroes with your octarine core
etc
Don't like it because his basic spells are not that crazy late game to warrant an Oct Core purchase, while you don't really benefit much from that shorten Doom CD.
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lvl death ministuns and deals 20% max hp damage to anyone with a lvl multiple of 3... also you usually get the octarine around 30 minutes, not lategame
it's definitely a 1/2/snowballing doom build if anything, you want to be the richest hero on the map to go for such an item so that you'll still have your armor item by like 35
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Do you ever buy Oct Core over Shiva/Agh/Refresher/Blink/ShadowBlade/AC/Greaves?
What's the scenario?
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http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1874897080
here i was forced into jungle by that goddamn jugg and i went phase->drums->blademail->oct->shivas->aghs (vlads after we got mega'd)
we lost cuz our idiot qop bought a rapier and immediately gave it away after taking 2 rax but the oct definitely let me survive one of the key fights with the spellsteal off scorched earth and the hp in the core; i lived with less than 200 hp
i didn't actually need the aghs earlier because id doom the low hp ember and get him to less than 500 which is enough for level 2 non aghs doom or doom the huskar who would manfight without flaming spears till his death; i only needed it after they started getting enough hp to survive that kind of bursti definitely dont think aghs is an every game item, and it's often bought too early when a non aghs doom would do the same thing in the situation.
i didn't need an initiation tool (blink/sb) because the fights kept coming to us
i didn't feel i needed shivas earlier but in retrospect it's hard to tell whether it wouldve been better or not instead of oct there
greaves actually synergizes with ocore due to how the mend debuff was changed (and that emergency 15 armor is super nice with a high hp pool and ways to heal)
tl;dr i think the scenario is just "when you don't think you need any other item more at that point"... not a satisfying answer but i don't think it's a never item
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I mean in that key fight what if you just had a refresher and doomed an extra hero lol
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On October 21 2015 05:01 hariooo wrote:
I mean in that key fight what if you just had a refresher and doomed an extra hero lol
we won that fight like 5-1... also im not sure you can get all your spells off with just blademail/drums/refresher
not to mention i'm the one they initiated on so without the extra hp i mightve just died
maybe ill re-watch the rep but refresher was 100% not an item choice that wouldve improved the game situation
if anything at all it was an earlier bkb or shivas or possibly a shadow blade for disengage/re-engage'
but yea reiterating that was a game we had won if qop didnt buy a divine and immediately dive their last t3 and then on her next life blink into 5 heroes by herself to hex the ember who picked up the rapier buyback and die again
you can watch the rep
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So it's useful iff the entire team jumps on you to focus you down but don't disable you quick enough to prevent scorched earth (bkb?), crowd around you to maximize octcore healing, don't even kill you, and then lose the 5v5 without your team needing the benefit of a team item like shivas or greaves.
I mean I don't think it's a garbage item but I just don't see it. Same with drums. You're so close to a blink and the number of scenarios where scorched earth + drums is enough mobility but blink+scorched earth isn't instead of vice-vesa is just so small.
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i completely disagree with the blink thing, especially at my level pubs where fights just come to you all the time and all you need to do is walk up from behind some trees or run up with phase/drums/scorched earth
i can see greaves probably being better in most situations but i go phase most games...
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SoCal8910 Posts
in that particular game, having a blink to initiate with your qop might have been a decent choice
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did you watch it?
edit: alright i skimmed the rep and boy i forgot a lot of things about that game
i went midas first which coudlve probably been a blink and i spent a lot of time being greedy when i couldve just forced stuff
still wouldve won if not for qop rapier though
ill just test more octarine myself
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going arcanes, drums, vlads, then greaves at some point is pretty good I feel, at least for offlane doom.
even better if you get the harpy for 140dmg nuke 50 mana.
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Doesn't the Drums delay your greaves a bit though? I feel like Arcanes, Vlads is enough mana to get you through early.
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drums isnt for having just enough mana to afk farm, it's for being a bit stronger in early skirmishes with your slightly higher movespeed, movespeed boost from activating drums and like 171 hp
they buffed drum active twice in a row, it's 25 attack speed for everyone fighting now, that's like treads!!
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:57 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
did you watch it?
edit: alright i skimmed the rep and boy i forgot a lot of things about that game
i went midas first which coudlve probably been a blink and i spent a lot of time being greedy when i couldve just forced stuff
still wouldve won if not for qop rapier though
ill just test more octarine myself
I didn't look at the replay itself, but judging from the final product (qop with a sheepstick) that's just a natural suggestion. im sure that there were a million other things that happened that game or affected your item choice. I'm not saying its an item that definitively would have won you the game, nor should you have gotten the blink first or anything. its just something to consider when you have a qop on your team..her blink sheep initiation (vs zero linkens) is potent. having no followup bc all of the other core heroes can't keeup up with her is a big deal. like, jugg probably needed one too.
but ofc if she has a rapier that she threw away, I'm sure that affected the outcome heavily.
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On October 21 2015 16:24 trinxified wrote:
going arcanes, drums, vlads, then greaves at some point is pretty good I feel, at least for offlane doom.
even better if you get the harpy for 140dmg nuke 50 mana.
probablly shouldn't go drums AND greaves. drums are okay if you are going the phase or tranquils route, but its a little much if you are going mek arcanes
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On October 22 2015 04:33 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 16:24 trinxified wrote:
going arcanes, drums, vlads, then greaves at some point is pretty good I feel, at least for offlane doom.
even better if you get the harpy for 140dmg nuke 50 mana. probablly shouldn't go drums AND greaves. drums are okay if you are going the phase or tranquils route, but its a little much if you are going mek arcanes
yeah you're probably right. I just got used to the drums route since you sorta get a power spike with all these cheap stat items.
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pick doom
go any lane, preferably safe or offlane
go phase / armlet / vlads with a drums if you're snowballing
eat the crit creep
you auto for 250+ at 15-20 mins, not to mention crits
armlet/vlads gives you tons of armor [!!!] /hp and you are an absolute monster. scorched earth mobility/regen makes toggles easy.
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On October 26 2015 14:06 ahw wrote:
pick doom
go any lane, preferably safe or offlane
go phase / armlet / vlads with a drums if you're snowballing
eat the crit creep
you auto for 250+ at 15-20 mins, not to mention crits
armlet/vlads gives you tons of armor [!!!] /hp and you are an absolute monster. scorched earth mobility/regen makes toggles easy.
Think I'd rather go SB. You kinda want to get right in their face, and not openly walk and try to right click.
Treads SB SnY has been my build for a while. You could get Armlet instead of SnY though. Also, don't waste gold on Vlads.
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EPT
