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Lalalaland34490 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/1/19/Doom_Large.png) Doom
He that burns and is not consumed, devours and is never sated, kills and is beyond all judgment-Lucifer brings doom to all who would stand against him. Bearing away souls on the tip of a fiery sword, he is the Fallen One, a once-favored general from the realm behind the light, cast out for the sin of defiance: he would not kneel.
Six times his name was tolled from the great bell of Vashundol. Six and sixty times his wings were branded, until only smoking stumps remained. Without wings, he slipped loose from the tethers that bound him within the light and he fell screaming to earth. A crater in the desert, Paradise lost. Now he attacks without mercy, without motive, the only living being able to move freely between the seven dark dominions. Lashed by inescapable needs, twisted by unimaginable talents, Doom carries his own hell with him wherever he goes. Defiant to the last. Eventually, the world will belong to Doom.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Doom
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It is sad when no one replies to this thread.
I have Doom in my 10 heroes challenge. Could anybody give me some tips?
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Jungle or offlane him. I can mostly give jungle advice. Rush basilius then midas. Don't be afraid to gank when you hit 6, doom is a ridiculous spell. You want to devour the big creep in the hard camp at level 1, ursas is a bad idea but other than that you should be okay. Start stout RoP and tango. After midas rush arcanes then mek, get alpha wolf aura and you are a teamfight monster. After that, finishing vlads isnt a bad idea, althought it might not be the best. Get aura items and/or team fight items. Pipe if you need one, for example. Practice jungling vs bots, doom jungle is pretty weird and depends on what camps you get. Pardon the horrible rambling and formatting and spelling, on my phone and typing fast lol 
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I much prefer getting the centaur stomp and getting a blink if you are going the arcane/mek thing, feel like you bring more to the table, especially early on.
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Is his jungling speed really okay? I have seen lots of pub players who tried to jungle with Doom and failed.
Also I wanna know if Blink Aghanim is legit or not.
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On June 19 2014 13:48 walrus wrote:
Is his jungling speed really okay? I have seen lots of pub players who tried to jungle with Doom and failed.
Also I wanna know if Blink Aghanim is legit or not.
wildkin/troll is a good level 1 devour creep.
stack the camps and then use tornado on them for safe jungling while use the skeletons for tanking (if you get the troll)
satyr is good for laning (dat regen).
eeeeh agha is not really that good as first item.
carry doom is like phase/drums/blink into sb/shivas/ac
utility doom is like arcanes/mek/blink into shivas/refresher/aghs
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On June 19 2014 13:48 walrus wrote:
Is his jungling speed really okay? I have seen lots of pub players who tried to jungle with Doom and failed.
Jungle Doom is very RNG-based unless you're doing pulls for your team. That's just the nature of it sadly.
He's a pretty good hero safelane/mid/offlane, so if you like consistency, it might be better just to lane him.
Also I wanna know if Blink Aghanim is legit or not.
It's a bit pubby, but it's a surprisingly strong build. I used to hate on Agh's Doom a lot, but it just does such an insane amount of damage, and can almost insta-gib most heroes mid-game. I think Blink ---> Shiva's is more stable, but Blink ---> Agh's is great for solo-killing.
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Anyone know iceiceice's offlane doom build? All I know is he goes stout, tranquils, wands from dotabuff. I don't really want to buy tickets for tournaments that are over.
I'm trying tranquils -> drums -> blink. It seems okay but I don't know if it's any good because matchmaking is cursing me with bad teams right now.
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Got Doom in ARDM. That dude is fun as shit when you get handed him and you have 14 skill points, a midas, treads, blink, and a mostly complete assault cuirass. I think I need to play some unranked with him cause he seems very strong. I figured phase boots are good for chasing, but treads would be nice for HP and such.... but then again tranqs have regen and armor.... which ones are best?
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Kill yourself if you pick this hero
User was warned for this post
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On June 21 2014 10:13 sickoota wrote:
Kill yourself if you pick this hero
???
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On June 21 2014 09:33 rebdomine wrote:From what I've seen he goes Boots, Tango, Clarity and gets pooled 1 Tango. And then goes Tranqs -> Midas -> Mek (if no one else getting)/Drums -> BKB. You can look around more of his games here: http://www.datdota.com/player.php?q=82&player=iceiceice
Thanks the starting build works really well.
So it seems like you can have barely have enough mana for Doom + Mek + Scorched Earth with Wand, no Drums and depending on level. Gonna have to play some Mek 1st games to see if it works. Tranquils into Drums/Blink working for me so far though.
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his only weakness is low armor, ppl could say low mana, devour and fast levels fix that.
if you want to have a fun pub game this hero is the shit go MS build and u got almost haste ms all the time, not the most legit build but in pub who cares :D
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sacrificial tanky doom is so good. arcane mek blink shivas bkb into RFO luxury with frost armor skillzzz. jump in. doom. tank through 5 ultimates, maybe die, teammates bat clean up.
EE runs this so well I'm surprised they don't do it more often.
In solo pubs just Midas into right-click though lol.
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My pub jungle build:
- start with stout, quelling blade, tango
- Work your way towards a midas.
- Buy phase boots.
- Max Q and W then take ulti (lvl 9.). Because of the midas, you do not have the items to gank at 6.
- If you need to gank ASAP get a Blink or Shadow Blade. Consider getting a drum.
- Otherwise get a Radiance and farm more.
- Get Shivas, eat big wolf, kill some guys.
- Disassemble the Shivas to get an AC and a Hex. Now you are a teamfight monster.
- Get Basher -> Abyssal, get a Heart, get Boots of Travel.
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hmm the midas is alright, but I feel it's situational. For the same price you can get a blink and just start ganking the shit out of people, and if you do the midas rush you generally don't want to get boots quickly, which makes an already bad jungler, even worse because you depend entirely on your team to set up your doom and get the kill.
The midas could be good from jungle, but I'd definitely not consider it the default item to get. If you think you can get kills, then go for the brown boots mek. I also like going stout/quelling/tango --> bottle -->boots --> blink. The bottle feels really good on doom, although I haven't played much since the devour nerf, so I can't say how much that effects his jungling. If you get mek though, you need something to maintain your mana or you probably can't get your doom/mek off in a team fight, considering the mana costs of your other spells so either treads or arcanes would probably be the best solution to it, or depend on other heroes to regen your mana.
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On July 03 2014 01:26 loboscope wrote:
My pub jungle build:
- start with stout, quelling blade, tango
- Work your way towards a midas.
- Buy phase boots.
- Max Q and W then take ulti (lvl 9.). Because of the midas, you do not have the items to gank at 6.
- If you need to gank ASAP get a Blink or Shadow Blade. Consider getting a drum.
- Otherwise get a Radiance and farm more.
- Get Shivas, eat big wolf, kill some guys.
- Disassemble the Shivas to get an AC and a Hex. Now you are a teamfight monster.
- Get Basher -> Abyssal, get a Heart, get Boots of Travel.
This seems like the epitome of AFK jungle Doom where you do nothing for your team and take up all the jungle farm for 20min and then have a mild impact afterwards if the game is still winnable thanks to your team. I would suggest not doing this unless you hate your team mates.
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On July 03 2014 03:02 12ozSkilletDota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 01:26 loboscope wrote:
My pub jungle build:
- start with stout, quelling blade, tango
- Work your way towards a midas.
- Buy phase boots.
- Max Q and W then take ulti (lvl 9.). Because of the midas, you do not have the items to gank at 6.
- If you need to gank ASAP get a Blink or Shadow Blade. Consider getting a drum.
- Otherwise get a Radiance and farm more.
- Get Shivas, eat big wolf, kill some guys.
- Disassemble the Shivas to get an AC and a Hex. Now you are a teamfight monster.
- Get Basher -> Abyssal, get a Heart, get Boots of Travel.
This seems like the epitome of AFK jungle Doom where you do nothing for your team and take up all the jungle farm for 20min and then have a mild impact afterwards if the game is still winnable thanks to your team. I would suggest not doing this unless you hate your team mates.
Well thats kinda what jungle doom is but yes this build is even worse than your average already criminal pure-jungle doom build.
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On July 03 2014 03:34 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 03:02 12ozSkilletDota wrote:On July 03 2014 01:26 loboscope wrote:
My pub jungle build:
- start with stout, quelling blade, tango
- Work your way towards a midas.
- Buy phase boots.
- Max Q and W then take ulti (lvl 9.). Because of the midas, you do not have the items to gank at 6.
- If you need to gank ASAP get a Blink or Shadow Blade. Consider getting a drum.
- Otherwise get a Radiance and farm more.
- Get Shivas, eat big wolf, kill some guys.
- Disassemble the Shivas to get an AC and a Hex. Now you are a teamfight monster.
- Get Basher -> Abyssal, get a Heart, get Boots of Travel.
This seems like the epitome of AFK jungle Doom where you do nothing for your team and take up all the jungle farm for 20min and then have a mild impact afterwards if the game is still winnable thanks to your team. I would suggest not doing this unless you hate your team mates. Well thats kinda what jungle doom is but yes this build is even worse than your average already criminal pure-jungle doom build.
Agreed, but getting a midas AND delaying ult is was more criminal than rushing blink or lothars and ganking with your doom.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Jungle Doom can get Mek quite quickly. Tranquils or Arcanes (generally Arcanes if you get Mek) work out well. Phase + Drums is incredibly doable as well. Radiance on Doom is kind of eh. He has a lot of HP, but has to be in the middle of the fight... with low armor. Chances are you're going to eat a ton of damage and Radiance doesn't help you live. Doom also farms quickly enough with Devour (and if you did Midas in a lane) that I don't find the benefits of Radiance to be that great.
As soon as Doom is up you really should be ganking. It either guarantees a kill on somebody or drives away a laning support/person TPing so you can kill your gank target without getting counter-killed. First level in Level Death at 9 is what I generally do if I don't go Arcanes, because after Doom + Scorched Earth + Troll net/centaur stun you actually don't have mana. Depending on the flow of the game, I'll take a second point in LVLD at 10 to deal with opposing mids/carries. After that, finish maxing Scorched Earths.
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If you're in the jungle you can gank long lane with wolf aura if your allies have CC. It does a lot of damage to low armour supports: Two crits will usually get you a kill. But because Doom typically lives at less than half health he's awful at reacting to enemy aggression. He's not a Chen or Enchantress that can shift to a trilane role if necessary. If your long lane gets trilaned and you have a doom in the jungle the game is over - you can't win. Only go jungle if they have an equally greedy lineup or weak lanes.
And for fucks sake stop building midas on this hero when there are three other farm intensive heroes on your team. You should almost always get a few ~2k gold items like mek blink and vlads and make space.
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On July 04 2014 04:46 nigsky wrote:
If you're in the jungle you can gank long lane with wolf aura if your allies have CC. It does a lot of damage to low armour supports: Two crits will usually get you a kill. But because Doom typically lives at less than half health he's awful at reacting to enemy aggression. He's not a Chen or Enchantress that can shift to a trilane role if necessary. If your long lane gets trilaned and you have a doom in the jungle the game is over - you can't win. Only go jungle if they have an equally greedy lineup or weak lanes.
And for fucks sake stop building midas on this hero when there are three other farm intensive heroes on your team. You should almost always get a few ~2k gold items like mek blink and vlads and make space.
thing is if you go jungle doom, you get robe of magi and get a wildkin and bottle(bottlecrow) and kill camps beside stacking tier 1 camp and time tornado killing the tier 3 camp when its on cooldown. and you gain maximum gold in the start, however sure you can gank better. but good players will be aware that you are jungle.
and will play smart accordingly. however lowbracket and random games where somtimes some idiots are at high rating. it would work.
usually you head into jungle as doom from offlane if they got a really deadly offlane for you and you desert it to jungle instead.
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I used to go radiance if I'm having a good game but I stopped doing so. Doesn't seem to have much of an impact for me.
For offlane, I like arcane mek blink into whatever. With a good creep, you can solo many plot constructed lanes. If I'm solo mid/jungling/safe lane, I'd usually go phase shadowblade sny basher mom. I would basically play the game solo and just find solo kills every time doom is off CD, while farming in between. Pub style of playing, but it gets the job done.
I really dislike jungling though, since my jungling patterns and efficiency is terrible.
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On July 04 2014 10:23 DucK- wrote:
I used to go radiance if I'm having a good game but I stopped doing so. Doesn't seem to have much of an impact for me.
For offlane, I like arcane mek blink into whatever. With a good creep, you can solo many plot constructed lanes. If I'm solo mid/jungling/safe lane, I'd usually go phase shadowblade sny basher mom. I would basically play the game solo and just find solo kills every time doom is off CD, while farming in between. Pub style of playing, but it gets the job done.
I really dislike jungling though, since my jungling patterns and efficiency is terrible.
well it sucks as radiant but as dire, jungle doom os effeciant as hell. just go clear both camps stack tier 3 until you get wildkin and tornado. you need the robe thou to be abel to do it and bottlecrow, try it out you will be amazed at the gpm/xpm you have with great timing and lucky spawns at the tier 2 camps and tier 3 you gain faster levels than mid.
Also ppl are really undermining the use of BoT on doom, there is a reason he bot was great on him back on the days, being mobile to not have to travel so far, example if you wanna gank top/bot it takes a long walk for u.
i would never recommend it ever as first item, and if u need arcane for you and your team especially would hell go arcane, but upgrading to phase is bad imo.
better to save those 1100 gold for bot instead. but it depends every game on what you are up against and what you have like everything else it can sound fine and dandy on papper but you dont know what u are up against and team8s.
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i think jungling doom is a massive waste of his potential as an offlaner in most situations. you can do some serious work messing up their jungle / eating big camps, and if you do get lv 3, 2 pts in scorched earth can actually let you trade with greedy supports and force them out of lane.
doom can get in to the jungle, eat a camp from a pull / continuation, and then the wave pushes because the pull doesnt work as intended. thats pretty good!
plus offlane doom has jungle recovery as an option, and doesn't gimp your lanes.
i really hate any jungler that isnt enigma, enchant or chen, anyway.
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On July 04 2014 04:46 nigsky wrote:
If you're in the jungle you can gank long lane with wolf aura if your allies have CC. It does a lot of damage to low armour supports: Two crits will usually get you a kill. But because Doom typically lives at less than half health he's awful at reacting to enemy aggression. He's not a Chen or Enchantress that can shift to a trilane role if necessary. If your long lane gets trilaned and you have a doom in the jungle the game is over - you can't win. Only go jungle if they have an equally greedy lineup or weak lanes.
And for fucks sake stop building midas on this hero when there are three other farm intensive heroes on your team. You should almost always get a few ~2k gold items like mek blink and vlads and make space.
I got Wolf passives at lvl1 as an offlane Doom once - easiest offlane of my life.
I would take off chunks off the enemy Void every hit, they couldn't contest anything. And the impossible to miss any last hits was good too.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
On July 04 2014 15:50 yyfpulls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 04:46 nigsky wrote:
If you're in the jungle you can gank long lane with wolf aura if your allies have CC. It does a lot of damage to low armour supports: Two crits will usually get you a kill. But because Doom typically lives at less than half health he's awful at reacting to enemy aggression. He's not a Chen or Enchantress that can shift to a trilane role if necessary. If your long lane gets trilaned and you have a doom in the jungle the game is over - you can't win. Only go jungle if they have an equally greedy lineup or weak lanes.
And for fucks sake stop building midas on this hero when there are three other farm intensive heroes on your team. You should almost always get a few ~2k gold items like mek blink and vlads and make space. I got Wolf passives at lvl1 as an offlane Doom once - easiest offlane of my life. I would take off chunks off the enemy Void every hit, they couldn't contest anything. And the impossible to miss any last hits was good too.
IDK about lvl 1 creeps, it all depends what tri-lane u facing. Smths more armor is better then dmg. Wolves for me are best when u lack some dmg and go like for some utility items. But yea if ur facing like more an defensive trilane i think wolves can do wonders for doom in lane.
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On July 04 2014 13:47 ahw wrote:
i think jungling doom is a massive waste of his potential as an offlaner in most situations. you can do some serious work messing up their jungle / eating big camps, and if you do get lv 3, 2 pts in scorched earth can actually let you trade with greedy supports and force them out of lane.
doom can get in to the jungle, eat a camp from a pull / continuation, and then the wave pushes because the pull doesnt work as intended. thats pretty good!
plus offlane doom has jungle recovery as an option, and doesn't gimp your lanes.
i really hate any jungler that isnt enigma, enchant or chen, anyway.
well i was talking now about heading from offlane, and actually doom farms better than chen,ench belive it or not inside the jungle.
So i dont get why ppl saying doom is waste of potential there, i would sure go offlane rather than jungle but if you get a draft with an offlaner, or to suprise enemy thinking its offlane doom since that is very common, and go a greedy team without them punish it in the draft its not stupid idea.
Problem is most dont know how to jungle doom.
ppl even rush midas first on him in jungle wich is bad, you can go it, but you go it after your bottle and robe of magi pickup then. and ofcs you start with staut and quelling, and with nice team8 you get pulled. after x2 camps you can buy the bottle then the robe after that then do the tier 3 and aoe it.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
wolf in lane also pushes the lane due to +damage aura
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On July 04 2014 13:47 ahw wrote:
i think jungling doom is a massive waste of his potential as an offlaner in most situations. you can do some serious work messing up their jungle / eating big camps, and if you do get lv 3, 2 pts in scorched earth can actually let you trade with greedy supports and force them out of lane.
doom can get in to the jungle, eat a camp from a pull / continuation, and then the wave pushes because the pull doesnt work as intended. thats pretty good!
plus offlane doom has jungle recovery as an option, and doesn't gimp your lanes.
i really hate any jungler that isnt enigma, enchant or chen, anyway.
It's fine in pubs since 90% of the time they won't punish you. You will probably lose the first fight, but then you will have arcanes mek, doom their mid hero, and win the next fight super easily.
It's bad in most situations, but since most pubs are super greedy, you can get away with it.
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On July 04 2014 16:59 FuzioNda1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 13:47 ahw wrote:
i think jungling doom is a massive waste of his potential as an offlaner in most situations. you can do some serious work messing up their jungle / eating big camps, and if you do get lv 3, 2 pts in scorched earth can actually let you trade with greedy supports and force them out of lane.
doom can get in to the jungle, eat a camp from a pull / continuation, and then the wave pushes because the pull doesnt work as intended. thats pretty good!
plus offlane doom has jungle recovery as an option, and doesn't gimp your lanes.
i really hate any jungler that isnt enigma, enchant or chen, anyway. well i was talking now about heading from offlane, and actually doom farms better than chen,ench belive it or not inside the jungle. So i dont get why ppl saying doom is waste of potential there, i would sure go offlane rather than jungle but if you get a draft with an offlaner, or to suprise enemy thinking its offlane doom since that is very common, and go a greedy team without them punish it in the draft its not stupid idea. Problem is most dont know how to jungle doom. ppl even rush midas first on him in jungle wich is bad, you can go it, but you go it after your bottle and robe of magi pickup then. and ofcs you start with staut and quelling, and with nice team8 you get pulled. after x2 camps you can buy the bottle then the robe after that then do the tier 3 and aoe it.
its not his jungling speed thats the problem its how he cant contribute until lv 6. enchant and chen can both gank while stacking, doom doesn't have the mana pool to sustain it.
when ur team has an enchant or chen the other teams mid and offlane have to play super cautious or they die to sub 5 min smoke ganks. thats why those heroes are legit junglers
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On July 09 2014 14:50 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 16:59 FuzioNda1337 wrote:On July 04 2014 13:47 ahw wrote:
i think jungling doom is a massive waste of his potential as an offlaner in most situations. you can do some serious work messing up their jungle / eating big camps, and if you do get lv 3, 2 pts in scorched earth can actually let you trade with greedy supports and force them out of lane.
doom can get in to the jungle, eat a camp from a pull / continuation, and then the wave pushes because the pull doesnt work as intended. thats pretty good!
plus offlane doom has jungle recovery as an option, and doesn't gimp your lanes.
i really hate any jungler that isnt enigma, enchant or chen, anyway. well i was talking now about heading from offlane, and actually doom farms better than chen,ench belive it or not inside the jungle. So i dont get why ppl saying doom is waste of potential there, i would sure go offlane rather than jungle but if you get a draft with an offlaner, or to suprise enemy thinking its offlane doom since that is very common, and go a greedy team without them punish it in the draft its not stupid idea. Problem is most dont know how to jungle doom. ppl even rush midas first on him in jungle wich is bad, you can go it, but you go it after your bottle and robe of magi pickup then. and ofcs you start with staut and quelling, and with nice team8 you get pulled. after x2 camps you can buy the bottle then the robe after that then do the tier 3 and aoe it. its not his jungling speed thats the problem its how he cant contribute until lv 6. enchant and chen can both gank while stacking, doom doesn't have the mana pool to sustain it. when ur team has an enchant or chen the other teams mid and offlane have to play super cautious or they die to sub 5 min smoke ganks. thats why those heroes are legit junglers
Everything depends on pciks mon.
enchantress and chen is a joke to some offlaners, and nothing scary but yes you are right their ganking presence is better than doom pre 6 , even then doom dont have the best gank presence if he is jungle, since he usually need more items.
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6.82 bump! There was a double nerf to Doom's ultimate in the patch.
Doom was a very hotly contested pick (generally in the offlane) at TI4 but in the recently completed ESL one I don't think he was picked up once in the quarter final stages onwards.
Was the nerf really that bad? Is Doom still a viable offlaner/utility or are the alternatives (timber :D) just too strong? Does he absolutely require an early aghanim scepter now? How have people been playing him?
At my atrocious skill level I have found rushing radiance and playing him as a carry has been fun but not always successful 
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If you ask me people seem to think the nerf is bigger than it was. He just doesnt completely fuck over Bristle/Huskar/Abaddon and others who are like defined by their passives. He still gets farm no matter what and he still shuts down lots of heroes badly. Thats why people picked him. Not as alround as before of course where a doom pick pretty much couldnt go wrong, but keep picking him against storm/weaver/ember/slark/timber etc imo.
He also fits well in the more long game oriented meta.
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With the recent change to mek mana cost wouldn't it be more fitting to see him build crimson vanguard to have a strong early team fight prescence? I know that even prior to the mek nerf it was common to get arcane boots before mek, but now with mek mana cost being 80% of your total mana pool i really start to think crimson might be a great replacement. Sure it takes longer to farm, but if you manage to get it at a decent timing it is devastating for the enemy team to deal with, a superior deathball item than mek and the tanking complement doom himself.
What do you guys think? Not saying people should rush this or skip arcane boots, just get it when you used to get mek, if you wanna prioritize blink/tranq boots then go ahead, just skipping mek all together in favour of this.
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Try getting a bottle instead of Mek because of rune changes, helps pure jungling builds too. Lots of players moving towards Aghs now too as their 1st/2nd core item (if there's passives you want to disable + the high damage it does for Doom) so don't bother with a utility item unless your team really need it.
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Crimson is no replacement to mek. You are now forced to skip mek unless you get arcane as well. In that case your role now is to be a greedy #4. Blink -> whatever.
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On November 15 2014 22:44 DucK- wrote:
Crimson is no replacement to mek. You are now forced to skip mek unless you get arcane as well. In that case your role now is to be a greedy #4. Blink -> whatever.
Crimson can't replace Mek, but 75 mana may mean the difference between Doom and no Doom. I get bottle instead, and tranq boots.
Starting double RoP tangoes is strong in my opinion, grabbing up an early wolf or regen aura is also nice. I end up normally Tranqs->Drums->Blink->Maelstrom->->Refresh->Heart/Euls(late)->Mjoll/BoTs(Very late)-> Crit/Heart(Very Berry Late)
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Crimson Guard isn't going to protect you, allied heroes and creep against spells and stuff early game like Mekansm can. Also... there's price differences. I really don't think it even should be said in the same sentence as Mekansm lol
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Been playing a bit of Doom in the offlane recently, and I've been thinking about how to skill him specifically for it. I see a lot of max devour builds first in the offlane which seems a waste of potential for lvl death damage early on. I've tended to max scorched earth first but saving points and picking up 1 or 2 in lvl death if I hit 6 and the safelane has a lvl 5/6 hero. I can't really think of a situation where it'd be better to have more points in devour unless the game is very passive. Is there something I'm missing with devour? Is skilling lvl death too big a tradeoff for not supporting a mek?
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On November 25 2014 22:08 Taiga. wrote:
Been playing a bit of Doom in the offlane recently, and I've been thinking about how to skill him specifically for it. I see a lot of max devour builds first in the offlane which seems a waste of potential for lvl death damage early on. I've tended to max scorched earth first but saving points and picking up 1 or 2 in lvl death if I hit 6 and the safelane has a lvl 5/6 hero. I can't really think of a situation where it'd be better to have more points in devour unless the game is very passive. Is there something I'm missing with devour? Is skilling lvl death too big a tradeoff for not supporting a mek?
The tradeoff is simply having more nuke vs more farm. As an offlane doom, your main contribution early on is just to doom heroes anyway. You are unlikely to get much mileage from lvl death, and that it is unlikely to hinder your effectiveness much too.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On November 25 2014 22:08 Taiga. wrote:
Is there something I'm missing with devour? Is skilling lvl death too big a tradeoff for not supporting a mek?
Yes, your ability to get good farm in the offlane
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So what's the best way to jungle doom these days?
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On December 24 2014 13:32 Comeh wrote:
So what's the best way to jungle doom these days?
In my experience( i don't play doom offlane much but i almost always jungle doom).
When i go super greedy and rush midas.
Usually i start with stout shield + 1 set of tango into midas. You can start with gloves of haste as well but sometimes it's too greedy. You can go tranquils before midas since you have the ability to help lane or gank early. Of course there is no need to go midas and it's more advisable since you can help early on with an early blink dagger or mek.
I can get 5-6 minutes midas as a 4 pos doom this is when i have a chance to devour the creep with the regen and haduken nuke. This is also assuming the next spawns are at least a couple of satyrs.(this is also assuming you are not pressured in those times by enemy rotations and/or you get an early kill)
Normally i get it 8-10 minutes as a 4 pos jungle doom.
Although i love the feeling of having midas on doom. The ability to devour + activate midas is just so satisfying that i don't care if we have a rough start or not playing doom right lol.
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Tango stout rop and optional whatever. Get bottle, get boots and anything else you need, get midas eventually. Maxing W over Q most of the time if I'm actually required to fight. I really prefer him as a more impact hero.
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Jungle doom on dire especially is quite efficient. For going midas, I start with Quelling, 1 set of tangoes, and Stout Shield. If you can get the rune 5:XX is doable without exceptional luck in camps. Otherwise 6:XX unless you get utterly awful spawns.
On dire side, you want to devour/kill large camp near t2 mid, and then proceed to the med camp northwest of it. There is one place where there is one tree you can tango/quelling through creating a bottleneck which when you stand in means only one melee creep can hit you at any one point in time.
Then all you do is use devour to clear the large camp, and then kill the med camp, rinse wash repeat. Easy farm, and quite efficient. You can get boned if you get Hellbears/Centaur as your first large/med spawns but taking it slow, farming some other camps real quick and using devour can get you through it without wasting too much HP/regen.
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If I'm jungling I usually like to get a bottle. Radiant in particular has an easy time controlling the runes and its free regen/ganking potential.
That said, ever since the devour mana cost being set to static, jungling doom has been crappy imo. Offlane doom is just so damn good.
Anyone have some offlane item starting suggestions? I usually open stout/RoP/Tango and rush tranqs. Basically doom can trade well with supports with scorched earth and can really dick over a safelane core who doesn't have some natural form of sustain. They need to be super wary of doom because of his level 6 potential. Jungling seems so slow by comparison.
Also jungle doom into midas just feesl like a dick move. It's hard to get your ganks off without the boots and your ganking potential kind of sucks anyway. and delaying a midas for a pair of boots also seems annoying. So jungle doom looks to be impactful at about the 8 minute mark at the earliest, which is pretty crappy compared to what other junglers bring to the table.
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Oh yeah i forgot about quelling blade. You should buy quelling blade also See.Blue is right. Dire jungle doom is easier and much more efficient.
Jungle doom is strong if you get dagger early like 10-14 minutes after midas and boots. You can get both assuming you don't die. Anyways of course compared to enigma it's not that amazing for pushing but i'm sure for fighting he works since he gets levels with devour + midas anyways and later he gets really fat.
Of course offlane doom is better having a lane is always better than jungling .. For offlane doom i just rush transquils(sometimes arcanes if my team needs one and i am leveling lvl death early) and bottle.
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jungle doom, much like jungle lone druid, and the other bad junglers, have no impact until the game is already more or less decided. that said if your mmr is low enough, you can generally get away with it unpunished.
admiral bulldog posted that lone druid guide video a few weeks back and everything basically applies to doom as well, although doom is slightly more useful because he has kill potential at 6. but he can't push towers, so it kind of balances out i suppose.
i still think offlane doom in to tranq/midas in to whatever is probably still the best way to run him. treat jungle as recovery so you dont gimp your lanes
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United States47024 Posts
It's not quite that bad because Jungle Doom can actually gank effectively at the right timings with ms advantage + either stomp skill, troll net, or Satyr Shockwave for ganking certain lanes that have sufficient disables.
The problem is that given how tight your early mana is, ganking ineffectively completely wrecks your tempo because you HAVE to go home if you fail, and several of these skills require pretty good execution to gank effectively with.
Most of the time in pubs, they either don't try or fail to execute ganks properly and kill their own tempo. It takes a pretty experienced Doom player to be able to manage both his own and his lanes' tempo properly, and even then it's arguable that a Doom player that proficient with the hero would still do better leveraging that skill in a solo lane.
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yeah I think that's dated anyway. When every game has a PA or a void not gettins Aghs (which is amazing even if those 2 heroes aren't in the game) seems like a huge mistake. Aghs damage change alone almost justifies the item. It's just absolutely immense. Pipe and high magic immunity like AM/Viper no longer have any effect on it after the damage type change from universal to pure.
Generally Tranqs --> midas --> blink --> aghs seems pretty reliable. Then platemail into your choice of AC or Shivas, then refresher and just wreck people. Even if you are jungle doom, delaying your doom past 6 seems like a dick move. I usually grab a bottle just so I can walk over to lanes and throw out a doom. Even if it doesn't kill them, it frees up your allies lane for 3-4 waves of free farm.
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Haven't played Doom in a while, used to be one of my favorite heroes, tried him out, went 3-0 tonight, very high skill, unranked but I'd guess somewhere over 4kish to get an mmr idea. Hero just feels stupidly strong.
Did the scorched earth really make him that much stronger in lane? Meta changed to help him? Just every game, easy gold from devour, just wreck someone with your abilities and chase and destroy people. Orb of venom plus scorched earth and a support is easy kills on offlaner every time.
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The go to build for offlane is 2 points in devour, max scorched earth. 2-4-0-1 at lvl 7. Basically ANY hero u doom is an instant kill at that point unless there is someone to bail them out. Doom + lvl 4 scorched earth is basically essentially 300 pure+ 785 magical damage for the full duration of it, not including right clicks or any skills u might have if you get off any. The best of all is that it allows you to yolo tower dive even harder than a TA when you have scorched earth, the solo hero cant even hide or juke under their tower.
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On October 10 2015 12:05 Kaj wrote:
The go to build for offlane is 2 points in devour, max scorched earth. 2-4-0-1 at lvl 7. Basically ANY hero u doom is an instant kill at that point unless there is someone to bail them out. Doom + lvl 4 scorched earth is basically essentially 300 pure+ 785 magical damage for the full duration of it, not including right clicks or any skills u might have if you get off any. The best of all is that it allows you to yolo tower dive even harder than a TA when you have scorched earth, the solo hero cant even hide or juke under their tower.
I've been safe laning him, but offlane probably he's strong too. I remember some team went lich/doom offlane duo, seems like a really good combo.
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Jingle feels weak tbh. Or am I doing it wrong?
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jungle extremly luck dependent, but he can get lvl 6 at under 6 mins if the circumstances lineup. properly.
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But doom is extremely strong in lane, especially if you get a mud golem spawn, harpy, or satyr early on.
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On October 10 2015 14:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Jingle feels weak tbh. Or am I doing it wrong?
probably just needs more practice on your side
he's one of the more reliable junglers in my experience
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the only reliable jungler is engima lol. how fast doom jungles is largely dependent on if you get the wildkin creep to spawn or not. If its spawns its ez lvl 6 just by tornadoing a quad stack camp :D
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Today I realized that at level 4 scorched earth allows you to regen 48 hp per second. Icefrog?
So, what boots do you go for as doom? Tranquils, phase, arcane, treads?
Tranquils sounds good with scorched earth, phase boots for the ms and damage, treads for stats, arcane if you go mek, etc.
Your opinions?
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On October 10 2015 19:19 HammerKick wrote:
Today I realized that at level 4 scorched earth allows you to regen 48 hp per second. Icefrog?
So, what boots do you go for as doom? Tranquils, phase, arcane, treads?
Tranquils sounds good with scorched earth, phase boots for the ms and damage, treads for stats, arcane if you go mek, etc.
Your opinions?
I go phase, then travels later in game.
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On October 10 2015 19:19 HammerKick wrote:
Today I realized that at level 4 scorched earth allows you to regen 48 hp per second. Icefrog?
So, what boots do you go for as doom? Tranquils, phase, arcane, treads?
Tranquils sounds good with scorched earth, phase boots for the ms and damage, treads for stats, arcane if you go mek, etc.
Your opinions?
Why do tranquils sound good with scorched? If anything it's a reason to not get them.
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Has anyone tried to go soul ring before or after midas? I mean the hero has a pretty abysmal mana pool and two really useful spells, one of which he wants to never have off cd. I guess that's mainly useful for max devour builds first, since devour cd at low lvls is really high and you dont want to spam scorched earth unless jungle?
On October 10 2015 19:19 HammerKick wrote:
Today I realized that at level 4 scorched earth allows you to regen 48 hp per second. Icefrog?
So, what boots do you go for as doom? Tranquils, phase, arcane, treads?
Tranquils sounds good with scorched earth, phase boots for the ms and damage, treads for stats, arcane if you go mek, etc.
Your opinions?
I agree that scorched earth if anything is a replacement for tranqs. I mean tranqs is still good for armor and regen if off-lane, but I think doom is one of the heroes that can get away with brown boots into BoTs later in pretty much any lane/jungle, at least if you get an early blink.
Arcane if mek sounds decent, the hero's mana pool isnt to big.
Doom feels like his entire itemization is situational. Aghs refresher is somewhat core, but not really pinned down to a special timing and even then there are games when you want other items more than aghs because most of your targets are squishy and not break targets (WR f.e.)
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Pick this hero if you want to gain mmr.
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On October 10 2015 22:27 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 19:19 HammerKick wrote:
Today I realized that at level 4 scorched earth allows you to regen 48 hp per second. Icefrog?
So, what boots do you go for as doom? Tranquils, phase, arcane, treads?
Tranquils sounds good with scorched earth, phase boots for the ms and damage, treads for stats, arcane if you go mek, etc.
Your opinions? Why do tranquils sound good with scorched? If anything it's a reason to not get them.
Yeah that's true, but it's also a reason to go for them because it actually gives you even more movespeed than before.
And the additional armor is something you love on Doom.
Need to test the other boots tho
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
why would u go tranqs when u already have scorched earth? be like a speed demon with phase (then add drums or sny) hitting ppl for dmg
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On October 10 2015 15:05 Kaj wrote:
the only reliable jungler is engima lol. how fast doom jungles is largely dependent on if you get the wildkin creep to spawn or not. If its spawns its ez lvl 6 just by tornadoing a quad stack camp :D
??? tell that to an enigma with camps warded or an enigma against a silencer
jungle doom is arguably more robust/flexible, as much as people like to sing the praises of how enigma can jungle "properly"
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silencer vs enigma isnt even that bad. Engima has never been about the black hole. you pick enigma for the 7 min mek from jungling. so you can 5 man early and end. and the control over space Midnight gives you. Black hole is just a plus.
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And no, doom is equally fucked, if his camps get warded. Basically any jungler is fucked. Enigma even if he only gets to work with 2 camps, can still get a 8 min mek with just 2 camps alone.
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jungle doom sucks
safelane doom best
then offlane doom
phaseboots ALWAYS
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I have tried many games of jungle doom. Bottle is nearly a must for efficiency. Your first 2 camps determine your farm speed a lot.
If you get a troll summoner as your first big camp, it is great and speeds up your farm a lot, just being able to spam summons to stack for you and as well to clear the camps faster. Big satyr is great, for sustain, and gives you easy lvl 1. Helllbear is not optimal, but will give you lvl 2. Wildkin is worse early on. Especially if your big camp is a wildkin and the 2 small camps are centuar, then you can just cry yourself to sleep. if you stack the hard camp 4 times, and a wildkin never appears to spawn there as well, you can cry yourself to sleep as well, as you would probably be lvl 6 at like 8 mins lol.
With Enigma, I never had to give 2 shits about which camp spawns what. I am always able to clear and stack the camps at the required times, irregardless of whatevr spawns I get.
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What is general feeling on bottle on this hero when not jungling? (incidentally I am in the jungle doom is awful camp) I've been getting it most games when in offlane, but sometimes it feels not so great in hindsight. What about if you are safe? I assume no?
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28088 Posts
Doom feels a bit OP right now. Just tried 2 games with him and absolutely dominated in both. I felt like no one could do shit to me...
I like the Phase/SNY/vlads build so far. 2-4-0-1 build as well.
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Actually the best jungler in the game is brood, for her speed, farm, immunity to ganks, and general menace to opposing supports.
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my comp kept crashing, even in the middle of team fights but i was just so fast and tanky with the phase, drum, vlads, sny build i copied from beesa and i ended up on 12-1 (we won but i counted as an abandon due to the constant crashing) urs just like a train super fast and stomp everything in ur path.
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On October 11 2015 16:51 TheEmulator wrote:
Doom feels a bit OP right now. Just tried 2 games with him and absolutely dominated in both. I felt like no one could do shit to me...
I like the Phase/SNY/vlads build so far. 2-4-0-1 build as well.
I better try this then... I'm probably losing with Doom because I rush Aghs
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28088 Posts
You still want aghs I think, there's just no reason to rush them.
edit: that is if you are playing the 1.
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is the aghs worth it over ac if u dont need the break? one of my games i felt it was closer than it should have been if i went ac instead with my item progression being, phase, basi,stick,drum, vlads, sny aghs
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
aghs is still good item even if u dont need the break. u will probably need to get the casual platemail after sny, then aghs, and then finish platemail into ac/shivas
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u get aghs when u feel like 1 guy is going to cause more problems than u are rdy to deal with otherwise ignore it
also i think ac is almost always > shivas coz u get -5 armour +45%dmg +20%ias auras with vlads/ac/wolf
but shiva is good in those games where u need the vision from it to doom someone sneaky when u blink or something
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This hero is so literally fucking absurd in the offlane. Everytime some nerd tries to farm jungle, picking Doom into the offlane is like an auto win because you can literally just walk on the support and kill him since you know they won't be tri-laning you. You can also walk into the jungle and disrupt the farming jungle (unless it's an Enigma) by just eating a creep or some shit. The new scorched earth makes Doom literally unkillable the second he hits level 3. He can free dive double supports if he manages to get fast 5 too.
Hero is pretty ridiculous in general right now simply because of that scorched earth change.
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Just remember to get oov on this hero.
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What is everyone's creep of choice when laning in offlane+
If possible I greatly prefer satyrs then golems then harpies . Satyr is like a free ring of health making you impossible to trade vs golem and harpies let you nuke people for free .
I like going brown boots bottle wand into midas. Usually I can get it within 10 mins in the offline which is pretty good
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On October 13 2015 16:19 Kaj wrote:
What is everyone's creep of choice when laning in offlane+
If possible I greatly prefer satyrs then golems then harpies . Satyr is like a free ring of health making you impossible to trade vs golem and harpies let you nuke people for free .
I like going brown boots bottle wand into midas. Usually I can get it within 10 mins in the offline which is pretty good
Depends on how hard the lane is. If you have relatively easy lane and you can trade hits and shit then straight Alpha Wolf or Satyr. If you have really hard lane then I feel getting Ring of Protection (for Tranquil Boots) + Wildwing Armor Aura is the best choice. With that you can start laning with 8 (EIGHT) fuckin Armor. Lvl 2 Scorched Earth on lvl 3 and you are pretty much invincible.
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Harpy sounds cancerous with a mango lol
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I've been fiending offlane, what are doom's starting items? stout/tango/salve/mango/branch or boots first?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ya tango salve stout branch mango, then i get phase boots asap, then wand, maybe oov, basi -> vlads
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On October 12 2015 11:36 ChunderBoy wrote:
u get aghs when u feel like 1 guy is going to cause more problems than u are rdy to deal with otherwise ignore it
also i think ac is almost always > shivas coz u get -5 armour +45%dmg +20%ias auras with vlads/ac/wolf
but shiva is good in those games where u need the vision from it to doom someone sneaky when u blink or something
Dont you get shivas to prepare for refresher? To me you go shivas if you go Agh. Because if you go Agh you likely go refresher. Double ult, double shivas, double bkb (if you have it), and mana to support it all.
AC for when you go aura/right click items.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ac and shivas do two different things, and i dont think being able to refresh shivas is the dealmaker when deciding between the two items
i also dont think aghs => refresher
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United States47024 Posts
On October 14 2015 00:37 ahswtini wrote:
ac and shivas do two different things, and i dont think being able to refresh shivas is the dealmaker when deciding between the two items
It's not so much to refresh Shiva's, it's that the +Int helps you actually cast everything (Doom with level 16 + Agha has 878 max mana, and 1 Scorched Earth, 2 Lvl? Deaths, and 2 Dooms costs 795 + 375 Refresh, plus potentially more for 2 Centaur stomps or something). Lvl?Death does a ton of damage lategame when it's on-level, so actually having mana to cast it again is useful.
That said, this is still not the biggest impacting factor on whether you buy AC or Shiva.
On October 14 2015 00:37 ahswtini wrote:
i also dont think aghs => refresher
Agree, Agha gives balanced stats and the nature of the effect is such that the Agha effect doesn't necessarily synergize with being able to cast 2 Dooms (your 2 Doom targets aren't going to stay together so you're still only going to be able to perma-Doom one person).
You get Agha when one person is a big enough problem for you to want to perma-Doom them. You get Refresher when there are 2 people you need to Doom. The two situations don't necessarily coincide so getting one doesn't guarantee the other.
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Regardless of whether you need to shut down one or two targets, if you committed to Agh I find it hard to believe you can get any item with the same impact as refresher after that.
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United States47024 Posts
Agh's doesn't really make Refresher that much better though--it's just the damage boost. You'll only realistically be able to keep the perma-Doom on one person. If you want 2 Dooms, having or not having Agh's doesn't really change the appeal that much.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i think that if you want to go refresher at some point, aghs makes it more appealing since that means you (potentially) value the spell over the right click and you'll want the stats.
but, i agree with yango and ahswtini getting refresher doesn't necessitate getting an aghs.
that said, if you wanted to get an agha, when is the best time to pick it up? agha first sounds horrendous because it'll take you forever to get there if you rush it. phase -> drums/sny first?
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what about blink? did people stop getting this now and just get fighting items instead? talking about offlane doom though.
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SoCal8910 Posts
the cast animation (cast point? not sure if that's the right word) of doom (the spell) is in a state where, if you can't charge at the hero and cast it bc they have an escape, blink + doom isn't going to help you either bc they'll just escape before the cast animation completes.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 14 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote:
i think that if you want to go refresher at some point, aghs makes it more appealing since that means you (potentially) value the spell over the right click and you'll want the stats.
Well the flip side is also that setting yourself 5k gold behind on defensive stats makes it harder for you to just chase down 1 person and maintain the perma-Doom in a fight. A Doom with Agha + 2 defensive items kind of just stays in there and keeps that one person down till they die because the other people can't just kill a Doom who's sufficiently tanky, but a Doom with Agha + Refresher + 1 defensive item has a harder time doing that, since he's just far easier to kill (even with a 2nd person Doomed).
So again, the two items serve different needs. If you need to keep one person down (or especially need the Break effect), you buy the Agha. If you need to Doom 2 people, you get Refresher to Doom 2 people. Sometimes you need to do both, but getting 1 doesn't force or exceptionally favor you to do the other.
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On October 14 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote:
i think that if you want to go refresher at some point, aghs makes it more appealing since that means you (potentially) value the spell over the right click and you'll want the stats.
but, i agree with yango and ahswtini getting refresher doesn't necessitate getting an aghs.
that said, if you wanted to get an agha, when is the best time to pick it up? agha first sounds horrendous because it'll take you forever to get there if you rush it. phase -> drums/sny first?
....I'm 99% certain the discussion was about aghs necessitating rfo, not the other way around.
You're going to want aghs before refresh in the vast majority of cases, to me.
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United States47024 Posts
Doom needs a mana item to actually support Dooming twice (his base mana isn't nearly good enough to Doom twice + activate Refresher and still do other things), and Agha's simply the most likely one for you to get. Shiva's also, but as I pointed out above, just having one of Shiva or Agha still makes your mana really tight.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 14 2015 06:09 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote:
i think that if you want to go refresher at some point, aghs makes it more appealing since that means you (potentially) value the spell over the right click and you'll want the stats.
but, i agree with yango and ahswtini getting refresher doesn't necessitate getting an aghs.
that said, if you wanted to get an agha, when is the best time to pick it up? agha first sounds horrendous because it'll take you forever to get there if you rush it. phase -> drums/sny first? ....I'm 99% certain the discussion was about aghs necessitating rfo, not the other way around. You're going to want aghs before refresh in the vast majority of cases, to me.
well, yes. i was just adding that in addition to aghs not forcing you into refresher, getting refresher does not force you to have an agha beforehand, BUT it is appealing to do so for mana reasons now that rfo does not provide int.
one doesn't require the other..but if you plan on going refresher, you need some int to be able to cast everything and aghs is an appealing choice because you're bulkier. on the other hand, as yango pointed out, you're not as tanky as if, for instance, you got a shivas nor will you necessarily be able to stand next to both of your doom targets.
related, but unrelated:
+ Show Spoiler +i personally don't think that you have to stand next to both doom targets, if you have, say, a dazzle + AM. one doom shuts the dazzle up and the other doom is so that, not only can the AM not escape, he cant just decide he's going to manfight and burn people down while he's doomed bc spell shield + mana break don't give a fuck. if the dazzle is alive, am could care less that he's doomed if he's sufficiently farmed. while there other situations where this applies, this particular on is a highly situational choice especially bc you don't want to have shiva's int when there's an AM on the field
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right that's why the stats + fighting build with drum/phase/sny has so much appeal to me atm. Screw mana.
edit: woops made a new page, comment was addressing doom's poor mana pool
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Does it ever make sense to go for the mana regen kobold in the small camp? 2 mana/sec aura is like a free cm on your team and early game doom has mana regen problems.
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It's MORE than a cm, it's a lvl 5 CM iirc, it's actually absurd.
But I think early game you're more bound by the cooldown of scorch earth than it's mana cost, and the healing spell of the troll doesn't compliment your natural healing from scorch really. I usually get bottle, and sometimes just soul ring is nice too.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 14 2015 06:22 BluemoonSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i personally don't think that you have to stand next to both doom targets, if you have, say, a dazzle + AM. one doom shuts the dazzle up and the other doom is so that, not only can the AM not escape, he cant just decide he's going to manfight and burn people down while he's doomed bc spell shield + mana break don't give a fuck. if the dazzle is alive, am could care less that he's doomed if he's sufficiently farmed. while there other situations where this applies, this particular on is a highly situational choice especially bc you don't want to have shiva's int when there's an AM on the field
Not sure if I'm reading you wrong, but Spell Shield and Mana Break are both disabled by the Break effect of an Agha Doom, even though they aren't by a regular Doom.
Before the patch that standardized the "Break" effect, Spell Shield was *not* disabled by Doom, but Agha Doom now does disable it.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 14 2015 06:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 06:22 BluemoonSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i personally don't think that you have to stand next to both doom targets, if you have, say, a dazzle + AM. one doom shuts the dazzle up and the other doom is so that, not only can the AM not escape, he cant just decide he's going to manfight and burn people down while he's doomed bc spell shield + mana break don't give a fuck. if the dazzle is alive, am could care less that he's doomed if he's sufficiently farmed. while there other situations where this applies, this particular on is a highly situational choice especially bc you don't want to have shiva's int when there's an AM on the field Not sure if I'm reading you wrong, but Spell Shield and Mana Break are both disabled by the Break effect of an Agha Doom, even though they aren't by a regular Doom. Before the patch that standardized the "Break" effect, Spell Shield was *not* disabled by Doom, but Agha Doom now does disable it.
i should have prefaced this by saying, "here is a situation where agh's does necessitate refresher and refresher necessitates aghs"
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United States47024 Posts
Well if you're just isolating those 2 heroes, having the Refresher isn't really necessary, it depends on the other heroes in the game.
Like, you don't need Doom to deal with Dazzle--regular silences/disables suffice because he's a support so he dies fast and doesn't have outs via items like a core would. You only need the 2nd Doom if your team otherwise doesn't have sufficient options for dealing with him.
Also, "don't want Shiva's Int because of AM" is super backwards because it's more likely that AM illusions hit you twice and reduces your mana pool by enough that you can't use all your spells than it is for him to actually Mana Void you over an Int hero with Int items.
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SoCal8910 Posts
yep, like i said in the original post, its a highly situational choice.
i tend to assume you want to be as self sufficient as possible in these types of situations bc you can't count on your allies to have a brain
On October 14 2015 06:34 TheYango wrote:
Also, "don't want Shiva's Int because of AM" is super backwards because it's more likely that AM illusions hit you twice and reduces your mana pool by enough that you can't use all your spells than it is for him to actually Mana Void you over an Int hero with Int items.
that's true. the dmg from mana break is physical and having +15 armor does help you cope with it.
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I thought I would give this hero a try because emu recommended it, lost 6 in a row.
TL;DR don't listen to emu
but seriously, maybe the hero is stronger on servers with a more calm meta than SEA. Or maybe I'm just bad at the hero. You press R how can it be hard :`(
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
huh, surely doom thrives in a clownfest cuz enemy runs at u, u turn on balanced earth and triple kill
just make sure ur building and skilling him correctly
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6 losses in a row oh boy how do u manage that?
the only reason im not 8k yet is coz i havent picked this hero enough
i show mercy to my soloq enemies
srsly tho go safelane, check medium camp (eat golem if not eat large creep), stack ez camp, pull ez camp, immedaitely move to lane, let ur support continue the pull
go 1-4-1 make sure u have mango, replace ur mango after u use it, go items mentioned earlier in thread G_G
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On October 15 2015 09:03 gaijindash wrote:I thought I would give this hero a try because emu recommended it, lost 6 in a row. TL;DR don't listen to emu but seriously, maybe the hero is stronger on servers with a more calm meta than SEA. Or maybe I'm just bad at the hero. You press R how can it be hard :`(
Level 2 scorched earth should mean easy kill on enemy offlaner. Level 1 and 2 you are a little weak, but level 3 you have a huge spike in power maybe you are being too aggressive first couple levels?
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The golem is seriously ridiculous. You can pretty much use it to poke down enemies and then later on run in with Scorched Earth and just kill em.
I always love it when I can find a golem level 1, pretty much hang onto it for the entirety of the laning phase (before eventually trying to find wolves for the mid game)
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also what do u guys think of 1-1-1 at lvl 3, even tho it sometimes feels like ur mana is limited, going 1-1-1 instead of 1-2-0 at lvl 3 has gotten me a bunch of kills that im not sure if i would have gotten without it. (which was super surprising to me) sometimes u just dive past the tower and they think they're safe and boom lvldeath (hmm tho i just checked that the difference in damage of full duration scorching earth (before reductions) is 168 damage (lvl2 -lvl1) compared to one point in lvldeath which is 125 damage.
so maybe i would have gotten the kill regardless if i just lvl'd up earth and would have saved some mana
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I too have a losing streak with doom at 4k mmr.
I play it at offlane tho...
it's hard to convince the team to do safelane doom. how do you guys do it?
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maybe its just the australia server but when i like highlight it, and place it in safelane on the minimap, i then type look i would really like to play safelane, but if none of u guys are going to support just tell me and ill pick a support.
Then people just let me have it O_o idk why lol (but i also really love playing support)
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 15 2015 15:51 trinxified wrote:
I too have a losing streak with doom at 4k mmr.
I play it at offlane tho...
it's hard to convince the team to do safelane doom. how do you guys do it?
have a plan to tell the team. 'im going to safe lane and purchase x y and z, if you want to pick a mid or offlaner that takes advantage of them, that would be great."
but ppl are jerks and sometimes could care less. then dota has gone full retard and you just have to roll with it or face being tilted.
this is also the reason I don't solo queue and played my first game of the patch only when I was invited to a party
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On October 15 2015 15:51 trinxified wrote:
I too have a losing streak with doom at 4k mmr.
I play it at offlane tho...
it's hard to convince the team to do safelane doom. how do you guys do it?
idk but my teammates have been skeptical in a 7k player demanding safelane with doom
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yeah you get laughed at when you ask for safelane doom.
so offlane is really the only way at my levels.
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what about just asking for safelane, u dont always need to highlight, especially alot of the times for offlane i really want to see who their carry is and what supports they have, and i think its vice versa for carries too u wanna see who their offlane is before picking.
atm i love safelane embe and safelane doom *drool* its been really fun to play those two heros, in pro games i constantly see the midas pick up, (i do think they mainly play it as an offlane, so it might be because u dont get safelane farm and u generate some income out of nowhere without taking it from the rest of the team)
i really dont prefer midas on offlane cores, just feels slow??? you farm decently already and u have devour gold, with phase, drum, vlads ur super good to go just trying to start a fight everytime doom is up and if its not, its not like ur scared to farm the lanes anyway.
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Ok, I never realized the boulder toss from the granite golem was no mana cost. I know my new favorite creep to eat. Also, dying and then setting up revenge kills with doomling boulder toss is amazing.
Me and tusk did work this game.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1873217666
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Doom in the offlane is an auto-win vs 1v2 lanes because any good creep results in an auto loss, since most people are picking greedy carries that can't help zone like AM, Spectre, etc.
If you get either Wildkin, Ogre Magi, Regen Creep, Boulder Golems, Harpy, or Mana Burn you essentially auto win your lane if it's 1v2. 1v3 it depends on the heroes, but you're such a nuisance and a threat to the carry that if they don't stay in the lane against you, you will likely kill the enemy carry or force him to not farm. Either way you're still winning. Most of the time you're winning that lane so hard that you almost have free farm anyways, so as long as your safelane and mids aren't absolute dog shit you're going to win the game pretty handily.
His level 3 and level 5 timings are the big issues from the safelane or offlane really; most supports cannot do enough damage (they will be level 2 at best, possibly level 1 if they didn't deward the pull and or you're really fucking with their pulls).
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thoughts on octarine core? maybe as a 3rd item or something if you don't need aghs at that point (after like drums/(blink/shadowblade/sny)). all his cooldowns are nice to reduce, having the extra hp and mana pool is nice, though he'll desparately need armor before (blademail?solarcrest??) or after (shivas/ac/blademail?) it synergizes with shivas and blademail as well, the reduced cd is super nice
level 4 devour increases gpm by 150 if used on cd, with octarine it goes up to 200 (pays for itself in like 2 hours!!)
scorched earth heals a whole lot more when hitting multiple heroes with your octarine core
etc
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On October 21 2015 03:53 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
thoughts on octarine core? maybe as a 3rd item or something if you don't need aghs at that point (after like drums/(blink/shadowblade/sny)). all his cooldowns are nice to reduce, having the extra hp and mana pool is nice, though he'll desparately need armor before (blademail?solarcrest??) or after (shivas/ac/blademail?) it synergizes with shivas and blademail as well, the reduced cd is super nice
level 4 devour increases gpm by 150 if used on cd, with octarine it goes up to 200 (pays for itself in like 2 hours!!)
scorched earth heals a whole lot more when hitting multiple heroes with your octarine core
etc
Don't like it because his basic spells are not that crazy late game to warrant an Oct Core purchase, while you don't really benefit much from that shorten Doom CD.
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lvl death ministuns and deals 20% max hp damage to anyone with a lvl multiple of 3... also you usually get the octarine around 30 minutes, not lategame
it's definitely a 1/2/snowballing doom build if anything, you want to be the richest hero on the map to go for such an item so that you'll still have your armor item by like 35
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Do you ever buy Oct Core over Shiva/Agh/Refresher/Blink/ShadowBlade/AC/Greaves?
What's the scenario?
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http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1874897080
here i was forced into jungle by that goddamn jugg and i went phase->drums->blademail->oct->shivas->aghs (vlads after we got mega'd)
we lost cuz our idiot qop bought a rapier and immediately gave it away after taking 2 rax but the oct definitely let me survive one of the key fights with the spellsteal off scorched earth and the hp in the core; i lived with less than 200 hp
i didn't actually need the aghs earlier because id doom the low hp ember and get him to less than 500 which is enough for level 2 non aghs doom or doom the huskar who would manfight without flaming spears till his death; i only needed it after they started getting enough hp to survive that kind of bursti definitely dont think aghs is an every game item, and it's often bought too early when a non aghs doom would do the same thing in the situation.
i didn't need an initiation tool (blink/sb) because the fights kept coming to us
i didn't feel i needed shivas earlier but in retrospect it's hard to tell whether it wouldve been better or not instead of oct there
greaves actually synergizes with ocore due to how the mend debuff was changed (and that emergency 15 armor is super nice with a high hp pool and ways to heal)
tl;dr i think the scenario is just "when you don't think you need any other item more at that point"... not a satisfying answer but i don't think it's a never item
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I mean in that key fight what if you just had a refresher and doomed an extra hero lol
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On October 21 2015 05:01 hariooo wrote:
I mean in that key fight what if you just had a refresher and doomed an extra hero lol
we won that fight like 5-1... also im not sure you can get all your spells off with just blademail/drums/refresher
not to mention i'm the one they initiated on so without the extra hp i mightve just died
maybe ill re-watch the rep but refresher was 100% not an item choice that wouldve improved the game situation
if anything at all it was an earlier bkb or shivas or possibly a shadow blade for disengage/re-engage'
but yea reiterating that was a game we had won if qop didnt buy a divine and immediately dive their last t3 and then on her next life blink into 5 heroes by herself to hex the ember who picked up the rapier buyback and die again
you can watch the rep
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So it's useful iff the entire team jumps on you to focus you down but don't disable you quick enough to prevent scorched earth (bkb?), crowd around you to maximize octcore healing, don't even kill you, and then lose the 5v5 without your team needing the benefit of a team item like shivas or greaves.
I mean I don't think it's a garbage item but I just don't see it. Same with drums. You're so close to a blink and the number of scenarios where scorched earth + drums is enough mobility but blink+scorched earth isn't instead of vice-vesa is just so small.
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i completely disagree with the blink thing, especially at my level pubs where fights just come to you all the time and all you need to do is walk up from behind some trees or run up with phase/drums/scorched earth
i can see greaves probably being better in most situations but i go phase most games...
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SoCal8910 Posts
in that particular game, having a blink to initiate with your qop might have been a decent choice
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did you watch it?
edit: alright i skimmed the rep and boy i forgot a lot of things about that game
i went midas first which coudlve probably been a blink and i spent a lot of time being greedy when i couldve just forced stuff
still wouldve won if not for qop rapier though
ill just test more octarine myself
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going arcanes, drums, vlads, then greaves at some point is pretty good I feel, at least for offlane doom.
even better if you get the harpy for 140dmg nuke 50 mana.
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Doesn't the Drums delay your greaves a bit though? I feel like Arcanes, Vlads is enough mana to get you through early.
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drums isnt for having just enough mana to afk farm, it's for being a bit stronger in early skirmishes with your slightly higher movespeed, movespeed boost from activating drums and like 171 hp
they buffed drum active twice in a row, it's 25 attack speed for everyone fighting now, that's like treads!!
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:57 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
did you watch it?
edit: alright i skimmed the rep and boy i forgot a lot of things about that game
i went midas first which coudlve probably been a blink and i spent a lot of time being greedy when i couldve just forced stuff
still wouldve won if not for qop rapier though
ill just test more octarine myself
I didn't look at the replay itself, but judging from the final product (qop with a sheepstick) that's just a natural suggestion. im sure that there were a million other things that happened that game or affected your item choice. I'm not saying its an item that definitively would have won you the game, nor should you have gotten the blink first or anything. its just something to consider when you have a qop on your team..her blink sheep initiation (vs zero linkens) is potent. having no followup bc all of the other core heroes can't keeup up with her is a big deal. like, jugg probably needed one too.
but ofc if she has a rapier that she threw away, I'm sure that affected the outcome heavily.
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On October 21 2015 16:24 trinxified wrote:
going arcanes, drums, vlads, then greaves at some point is pretty good I feel, at least for offlane doom.
even better if you get the harpy for 140dmg nuke 50 mana.
probablly shouldn't go drums AND greaves. drums are okay if you are going the phase or tranquils route, but its a little much if you are going mek arcanes
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On October 22 2015 04:33 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 16:24 trinxified wrote:
going arcanes, drums, vlads, then greaves at some point is pretty good I feel, at least for offlane doom.
even better if you get the harpy for 140dmg nuke 50 mana. probablly shouldn't go drums AND greaves. drums are okay if you are going the phase or tranquils route, but its a little much if you are going mek arcanes
yeah you're probably right. I just got used to the drums route since you sorta get a power spike with all these cheap stat items.
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pick doom
go any lane, preferably safe or offlane
go phase / armlet / vlads with a drums if you're snowballing
eat the crit creep
you auto for 250+ at 15-20 mins, not to mention crits
armlet/vlads gives you tons of armor [!!!] /hp and you are an absolute monster. scorched earth mobility/regen makes toggles easy.
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On October 26 2015 14:06 ahw wrote:
pick doom
go any lane, preferably safe or offlane
go phase / armlet / vlads with a drums if you're snowballing
eat the crit creep
you auto for 250+ at 15-20 mins, not to mention crits
armlet/vlads gives you tons of armor [!!!] /hp and you are an absolute monster. scorched earth mobility/regen makes toggles easy.
Think I'd rather go SB. You kinda want to get right in their face, and not openly walk and try to right click.
Treads SB SnY has been my build for a while. You could get Armlet instead of SnY though. Also, don't waste gold on Vlads.
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i think drums, stick/wank, vlads (basi aura) is just really nice and after u follow up with sny ur just a super tanky train and i havnt had mana problems with him at all with thise build, (i go phase definitely over threads even tho tread switching is great for low mana pool hero the phase movement is just too good)
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 26 2015 17:28 Shock710 wrote:
i think drums, stick/wank, vlads (basi aura) is just really nice and after u follow up with sny ur just a super tanky train and i havnt had mana problems with him at all with thise build, (i go phase definitely over threads even tho tread switching is great for low mana pool hero the phase movement is just too good)
someones autocorrect betraying their typing habits 
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On October 26 2015 14:56 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 14:06 ahw wrote:
pick doom
go any lane, preferably safe or offlane
go phase / armlet / vlads with a drums if you're snowballing
eat the crit creep
you auto for 250+ at 15-20 mins, not to mention crits
armlet/vlads gives you tons of armor [!!!] /hp and you are an absolute monster. scorched earth mobility/regen makes toggles easy. Think I'd rather go SB. You kinda want to get right in their face, and not openly walk and try to right click. Treads SB SnY has been my build for a while. You could get Armlet instead of SnY though. Also, don't waste gold on Vlads.
A. Doom is probably your best carrier for Vlads in the first place, and the timing is relatively decent for midgame fighting.
B. Vlads synergizes incredibly well with Wolf Aura and it gives you good armor for a relatively cheap price for all the other stats that come with it.
C. SB with no Drums or any kind of mana item means you will be constantly out of mana, unless you're going to go Blue Treads the whole time which isn't ideal.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Ya but you could also let a support get it at some point instead of spending 2k on an item that will be replaced for your six slot.
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I think the goal nowadays with a doom is to win before getting 6 slots... And vlad is really efficient/cookie cutter item.
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On October 26 2015 19:36 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 17:28 Shock710 wrote:
i think drums, stick/wank, vlads (basi aura) is just really nice and after u follow up with sny ur just a super tanky train and i havnt had mana problems with him at all with thise build, (i go phase definitely over threads even tho tread switching is great for low mana pool hero the phase movement is just too good) someones autocorrect betraying their typing habits
ROFL i cant actually remember if i typed it on my phone or on my laptop, eitherway might be cause i use wanker alot :/ as thanks and as an australian "ya a sick cunt" :D,
the basi regen is just so good, as a stepping stone it gives armor as well. phase, basi, stick (wand whenever), drums, vlads, sny, has everything and its not slot constraining, because u dont bring the little parts of drums/sny/vlads with you.
Phase, stick/wand, drum, vlads/basi if not upgrade, tp, part of sny/full sny.
You're super tanky with drum, sange part, super fast with phase, drum/active, yasha, and decent overall stats intel for casting everything. Later on i think blink is great, instant closing the distance with a doom makes solo pick offs and initiation so easy.
The reason i prefer this over armlet (although i have to admit i have not tried armlet at all) is because the ms doom gets from drums sny phase, if ur tanky with armlet u still need to be able to hit people.
But this is for carry doom (i havnt played him offlane or jungle at all mostly not jungle because i hate it and every jungler that isnt chen, enig, enchant.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
vlads gives doom everything he wants and 2k gold is not a problem for him
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vlads has the added benefit of turning you in to a monster with the 30% dmg wolf aura, and 15% vlds aura. a team 45% dmg boost is a pretty big deal.
that's why i like armlet so much on him, the +str from armlet interacts with +45% aura and you just truck people. It is actually like 250 dmg when you activate armlet. And doom farms all those items so fast.
Doom also happens to be a pretty good chaser because scorched earth is actually stupid
Try it before you knock it, you'll probably be pretty impressed.
edit: also, if u go vlads/armlet, you can rosh very early.
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I'd rather spend that 1.8k upgrade gold on something more useful. Essentially the main benefits on upgrading are just +3 Armour and damage. Rushed Vlad's provide mediocre statistical benefits for its price. If you're not rushing Vlad's, you would be prioritising getting other more useful items earlier like Blink Agha BKB Shivas AC or whatever you choose, eventually selling the Basi away.
I'm a Drums hater, and I'd rush Drums over Vlads any day.
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If you get Vlads on Doom you'll still win, but that doesn't make it a good choice. It's simply not something you need. Basi and Drums give good enough stats/mana sustain for early owning. Just go big items after this.
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vlads is wayyyy better than it used to be because dota is way more mid-game teamfight oriented than it was 6 months / a year ago. the armor and damage actually makes a big difference in the midgame and more importantly it lets you take quick and safe roshes after winning a fight. it has a good buildup for a hero like doom, the mana regen and armor helps a lot in lane.
that said im rly only defending vlads if you go armlet because the damage increase is too good to pass up
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what's everyone thoughts on the "support/utility" build. when playing offlane of course.
I'm talking about going basi, arcanes, mek, vlads. get the lightning creep early for spamming 140 dmg nukes at low cd for pushing or harassing.
Then aghs, AC/shivas, refresher, pipe (situational), with eventually greaves in between those?
You farm fast to get this items relatively early, you're tanky as hell, and you actually give so many auras out. easier to carry 4k mmr games like this as you kinda mitigate stupid decisions by your team mates. with alpha wolf aura, you still hit hard, and our team mates will actually be super useful with all these auras. that's hoping you can coordinate 5-man dota though.
or is this a stupid build itself lol?
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you can't reliably get the harpy, it's a 1 in 6 chance (1 in 5 to be the next one if the current one isn't it) with usually only 1 camp accessible to you
im not sure it's that great anyway due to the mana cost
i think greaves earlier is probably nice? idk
i consider aghs a situational item, i feel like there's plenty of games where you dont need the extra damage
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On October 27 2015 06:39 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
you can't reliably get the harpy, it's a 1 in 6 chance (1 in 5 to be the next one if the current one isn't it) with usually only 1 camp accessible to you
im not sure it's that great anyway due to the mana cost
i think greaves earlier is probably nice? idk
i consider aghs a situational item, i feel like there's plenty of games where you dont need the extra damage
it's more for the passive disables, not so much the damage I feel. but yeah aghs could be situational too. the aura doom gameplay seems fun and reliable to win tho, instead of trying to carry with SnY, etc.
the mana cost of the harpy is the reason why you have arcanes. otherwise, you can't use up your mana pool enough without it in the early game.
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On October 27 2015 03:33 DucK- wrote:
I'd rather spend that 1.8k upgrade gold on something more useful. Essentially the main benefits on upgrading are just +3 Armour and damage. Rushed Vlad's provide mediocre statistical benefits for its price. If you're not rushing Vlad's, you would be prioritising getting other more useful items earlier like Blink Agha BKB Shivas AC or whatever you choose, eventually selling the Basi away.
I'm a Drums hater, and I'd rush Drums over Vlads any day.
All the items you listed come way too late in the current meta to rush. If you like straight up dominated your lane or the safe lane farmer, you can have phase/drums/vlads under 15 minutes and just literally run over and click on anything if you have Wolf Aura and just 2 shot most people. Alot of Doom's strength is that he can abuse Scorched Earth within the first 20 minutes and literally win every fight with it; Vlads and Drums both contribute to that snow bally effect.
Not to mention with the prevalence of negative armor heroes like TA, Dazzle, Slardar, and SF the early Vlads actually does make a tremendous difference in fights.
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On October 27 2015 10:37 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2015 03:33 DucK- wrote:
I'd rather spend that 1.8k upgrade gold on something more useful. Essentially the main benefits on upgrading are just +3 Armour and damage. Rushed Vlad's provide mediocre statistical benefits for its price. If you're not rushing Vlad's, you would be prioritising getting other more useful items earlier like Blink Agha BKB Shivas AC or whatever you choose, eventually selling the Basi away.
I'm a Drums hater, and I'd rush Drums over Vlads any day. All the items you listed come way too late in the current meta to rush. If you like straight up dominated your lane or the safe lane farmer, you can have phase/drums/vlads under 15 minutes and just literally run over and click on anything if you have Wolf Aura and just 2 shot most people. Alot of Doom's strength is that he can abuse Scorched Earth within the first 20 minutes and literally win every fight with it; Vlads and Drums both contribute to that snow bally effect. Not to mention with the prevalence of negative armor heroes like TA, Dazzle, Slardar, and SF the early Vlads actually does make a tremendous difference in fights.
This. Ive been building like this:
tango,salve,mango,shield--->OOV, basi, boots
then phase, vlads. the slow life steal and damage aura especially if you get a wolf is nuts, and the regen is nice. Then typically I get either SnY and other fighting items or I go straight aghs/blink/refresher if there are carries I cant deal with.
sitting on about an 75% winrate with doom this last few weeks
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Blink is usually better than vlads or movespeed build on offlane doom. Exception being your team has a way to brute force towers down without starting the fight (sf, jakiro, etc) or other initiator cores.
Every time i see doom not winning the lane hard enough, it's because he didn't get an oov. This item is godlike on doom.
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On October 27 2015 18:36 babysimba wrote:
Blink is usually better than vlads or movespeed build on offlane doom. Exception being your team has a way to brute force towers down without starting the fight (sf, jakiro, etc) or other initiator cores.
Every time i see doom not winning the lane hard enough, it's because he didn't get an oov. This item is godlike on doom.
Blink is only good if you're up against a caster that you can reliably Doom. Against certain mid cores (such as SF) it's actually pretty shitty because up until you get Aghs, your Blink Dagger is pretty useless. Better off going midgame fighting builds at that point.
Thus, why Vlads is pretty good item because it's a nice stopgap measure before getting other items. Not to mention, Doom actually is one of those weird heroes that lifesteal is actually a semi-decent manfight stat because he already has an insane HP pool without really any HP items, and he can do crazy good spike DPS with crits (like 400-500 crits early in the game).
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You can already solo kill anyone with blink and oov. Blink gives you easy initiation. You want to stay off the map as much as possible and go neutrals, denying enemy farm with that potential kill threat and not taking away your teammates' farm. Scorched earth is so OP they need at least 3 heroes to kill you, so even if you get caught out, your team will not lose out too much unless your teammates are wanking elsewhere on the map. Your job as an offlaner is to just start fights by dooming key targets, soaking up enemies spells and give teamfight vision for followups.
If your team plans to end game early like how Monkey Business' drafts always do, then sure go ahead for aura and movespeed items.
In addition, you can always go back to combat item builds after blink, skipping the aghs.
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What heroes is it worth getting Aghs against compared to a shiva? If you want a refresher that game those are two of the more popular mana items.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 27 2015 23:41 babysimba wrote:
You can already solo kill anyone with blink and oov. Blink gives you easy initiation. You want to stay off the map as much as possible and go neutrals, denying enemy farm with that potential kill threat and not taking away your teammates' farm. Scorched earth is so OP they need at least 3 heroes to kill you, so even if you get caught out, your team will not lose out too much unless your teammates are wanking elsewhere on the map. Your job as an offlaner is to just start fights by dooming key targets, soaking up enemies spells and give teamfight vision for followups.
If your team plans to end game early like how Monkey Business' drafts always do, then sure go ahead for aura and movespeed items.
In addition, you can always go back to combat item builds after blink, skipping the aghs.
ya that isn't true since the cast animation nerf. that extra fraction of a second allows anyone with an escape to do just that. since the removal of mana cost on blink dagger, anyone that CAN'T afford a blink dagger, can still pick one up to reposition away from the doom and avoid being jumped on by him with a reasonable reaction.
blink isn't necessarily a BAD item, especially if you're playing with a hero that can blink initiate, you want to be able to keep up with them. its just that in general, many of the heroes you want to doom can get out of the way, so if you can't run up to them while under smoke and get your doom off, you probably won't need a blink dagger until later on in the game.
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On October 28 2015 02:27 Yurie wrote:
What heroes is it worth getting Aghs against compared to a shiva? If you want a refresher that game those are two of the more popular mana items.
I almost never get ahgs, I think it's quite unnecessary at the moment unless they have a hero with a passive that your team just can't deal with (e.g late-game PA or Spectre). Shiva's on the other hand is basically always good and should be a go-to item. Everything about it is useful.
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You get blink if your main doom target is a backliner who you can't afford to have get his spells off. It's also nice for pickoffs if you're super snowballing, because poor enemy heroes can't buy things to abuse the cast time.
It's average for pickoffs if the enemy cores have good farm or <0.5s escapes of their own (qop/weaver/ember/morph etc). Unfortunately those are heroes that you pick doom specifically to counter, so that situation occurs a lot.
Shadowblade is a lot more reliable as a pickoff item since you can complete doom's animation from invis. The mana cost is a pain, though.
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On October 27 2015 23:41 babysimba wrote:
You can already solo kill anyone with blink and oov. Blink gives you easy initiation. You want to stay off the map as much as possible and go neutrals, denying enemy farm with that potential kill threat and not taking away your teammates' farm. Scorched earth is so OP they need at least 3 heroes to kill you, so even if you get caught out, your team will not lose out too much unless your teammates are wanking elsewhere on the map. Your job as an offlaner is to just start fights by dooming key targets, soaking up enemies spells and give teamfight vision for followups.
If your team plans to end game early like how Monkey Business' drafts always do, then sure go ahead for aura and movespeed items.
In addition, you can always go back to combat item builds after blink, skipping the aghs.
The more popular mids like SF don't really give a shit if you blink Doom them, because they will just stand there and 2 shot your 0 armor ass unless you happen to have Ogre Ice Armor. Dooming without Aghs is really only useful against heroes that become useless without their spells, but since the 2 position has switched into another carry now, the only other hero you could possibly think about Dooming is their 3 which is typically a waste.
And yes, your teammates wank everywhere on the map pretty commonly even up above 5k MMR, even up above 5.5k MMR. Blink Doom is good in competitive play because he can choke the map and rely on consistent teammates to show up with items, but if we're talking about winning in a pub specifically, the race car/semi-carry build reigns supreme.
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Even after the nerfs, doom still good in pubs tho.
The nice part is he's not getting picked as much.
I think the utility aura/heal build is best now and play at offlane.
Only 4k mmr experience.
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I'm losing all my doom offlane because I don't know when to go eat the neutral creep.
If I get a good creep I think the lane is just won, but how do I even get the chance to leave?
Lost all 5 games because I couldn't figure this one part out.
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On November 08 2015 05:58 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I'm losing all my doom offlane because I don't know when to go eat the neutral creep.
If I get a good creep I think the lane is just won, but how do I even get the chance to leave?
Lost all 5 games because I couldn't figure this one part out.
easier on dire, as most of the time you can walk up to the big camp. even better if you eat a tree to it. can do this right at 30 secs when game starts, just make sure you don't block your lane creeps too much. this will allow the wave to be sorta at the side of enemy, so you can safely walk up to the big camp.
as radiant... it is tougher, so you might have to go the long way from the hill towards roshan pit. choose between the mid or big camp there. but same thing, don't block your lane creeps too much and allow it to push a bit
as to when to do it is another challenge. really depends. gotta hope for an opportunity really. just don't force it. you don't have to get a neutral on first devour.
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it was 4v5 playing against this imbalanced hero before. Now it is literally 4v6.
I don't understand, why IF thinks this hero needs more love after having the most broken ultimate in the game.
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On November 08 2015 08:09 Laserist wrote:
it was 4v5 playing against this imbalanced hero before. Now it is literally 4v6.
I don't understand, why IF thinks this hero needs more love after having the most broken ultimate in the game.
I confess I am doing compendium challenges in unranked and its making me hate doom. People like morphling and Weaver really don't have an answer to the fucker. If you have two really vital teamfights heroes: doom one, throw all of your spells on the other, win fight. That sounds stupidly easy...because it feels stupidly easy. The difference between being able to man up when doomed and having to run in hopes you can be denied seems so fickle. He seems to be the death of all splitpush heroes as well. Maybe someone here can tell me I'm wrong and you can play around these strengths of doom.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Yeah I mean you definitely want to draft around him, but I think the best defense is a good offense. You don't want to have to react vs this hero but instead be proactive.
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Doom got a fairly significant stealth nerf to his jungling capabilities in 6.86; he has far fewer options to devour jungle creeps without changing abilities because of the new weak magic resistance auras.
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Yeah, I noticed this too, kind of tricky to manage, but also a lot of fun since it forces you to use different abilities. His new E is also pretty cool I think, and quite good, does a lot of damage even early on with only one point.
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Doom has seen a recent resurgence in competitive play recently, but he's also like secretly broken as shit in pubs. Alot of people like to spam heroes like Enchant/OD/Spectre/etc. and don't realize that Doom shuts alot of these heroes down big time still, particularly if he gets an early offlane head start.
His damage output is ridiculous as soon as he gets Doom; if your support ever leaves Doom against your carry 1v1 he just runs him down with Doom and Infernal Blades, auto attacks maybe 2 more times and your carry is dead.
He's also really good because he shuts down alot of the more common 2 position caster heroes like Invoker/Zeus. Before even though he was broken in lane he still had problems because he had to deal with 2 phys dmg cores on the map usually (sometimes 3) and not just 1 like most teams are playing around now. Makes him a much stronger pick in general.
Hint to everyone who hates Spectre. Radiance/Shivas Doom legit gucci vs her. Forces her to get MKB if she wants to have a decent shot at killing you. His Infernal Blade is also godlike vs her too.
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EPT
