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On November 28 2016 21:23 wims80 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 21:10 NInoff wrote:On November 28 2016 16:53 Anamorph wrote:
Am I the only one not being impressed by their games?
To be honest, I am 100% sure, that this performance is not even close to a tier 1 performance.
- Extrem bad early game, I am not sure what they re doing wrong, but their early game sucks. They lose each lane and it looks, like they re only able to secure the safelane farm..
- Miracle mid is dead 24/7 - thats what it feels like. He is awesome yea, but his aggressive style results in getting killed 4-5 times in 10-15 minutes. There is still no offensive play to control and win the mid. Against escape it showed up a lot, each mid was clearly dominated by escape.
I could continue a long list.. their individual skill wins them the games, thats what you can see - their team coordination is awful. A tier 1 team will not give the early game lead out of their hands. Seems like we were watching different games. The laning stage in most of the games was supposed to go like it did - they never drafted super aggressive so they can crush the lanes. Its pretty much Liquid Pre Ti6 style - draft stable lanes ( means even if it loses its by a couple of CS - death here and there), then supports and MC die a bit if rotations fail while so cores farm thn 1 won fight ---> map control, 2 fight ---> win. Owning the lanes with a draft that contains lets say Morph or TB means hard snowball and 15 min win. That strategy might work against teams like Alliance and Imperial, but will it work against Wing, Virtus Pro or OG? I'm not so sure
If this liquid can go toe to toe with any of this teams, right now? Hell no.
But you have to consider that this roster is still developing. I guess they did found their pace, next step would be develop new strategies, and solve farm distribution wich may still be a problem, as they didn't had any difficult games.
Team liquid's future is bright, if you ask me.
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On November 28 2016 16:53 Anamorph wrote:
Am I the only one not being impressed by their games?
To be honest, I am 100% sure, that this performance is not even close to a tier 1 performance.
- Extrem bad early game, I am not sure what they re doing wrong, but their early game sucks. They lose each lane and it looks, like they re only able to secure the safelane farm..
- Miracle mid is dead 24/7 - thats what it feels like. He is awesome yea, but his aggressive style results in getting killed 4-5 times in 10-15 minutes. There is still no offensive play to control and win the mid. Against escape it showed up a lot, each mid was clearly dominated by escape.
I could continue a long list.. their individual skill wins them the games, thats what you can see - their team coordination is awful. A tier 1 team will not give the early game lead out of their hands.
The farm was fine, they decided who was the AFK farmer between matu and miracle and who was joining most fights in every game. No way you get a fast 6 slotted TB if your timber and SK wants to go for the farm game too for exemple. They showed some great coordination in many fights.
Liquid used to focus on a strong midgame at their peak. Wings also plays like this a lot but it's split with win lane win game style. VP is the opposite of liquid, focusing a lot on winning lanes. I don't think we can tell yet how strong liquidis as they've not faced top opponents and they're just starting to get some cohesion again.
There is not a single power curve for every draft in dota and each team has its preferences. But I can already tell you overrate the scoreboard way too much.
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On November 28 2016 22:16 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 16:53 Anamorph wrote:
Am I the only one not being impressed by their games?
To be honest, I am 100% sure, that this performance is not even close to a tier 1 performance.
- Extrem bad early game, I am not sure what they re doing wrong, but their early game sucks. They lose each lane and it looks, like they re only able to secure the safelane farm..
- Miracle mid is dead 24/7 - thats what it feels like. He is awesome yea, but his aggressive style results in getting killed 4-5 times in 10-15 minutes. There is still no offensive play to control and win the mid. Against escape it showed up a lot, each mid was clearly dominated by escape.
I could continue a long list.. their individual skill wins them the games, thats what you can see - their team coordination is awful. A tier 1 team will not give the early game lead out of their hands. The farm was fine, they decided who was the AFK farmer between matu and miracle and who was joining most fights in every game. No way you get a fast 6 slotted TB if your timber and SK wants to go for the farm game too for exemple. They showed some great coordination in many fights. Liquid used to focus on a strong midgame at their peak. Wings also plays like this a lot but it's split with win lane win game style. VP is the opposite of liquid, focusing a lot on winning lanes. I don't think we can tell yet how strong liquidis as they've not faced top opponents and they're just starting to get some cohesion again. There is not a single power curve for every draft in dota and each team has its preferences. But I can already tell you overrate the scoreboard way too much.
I agree with this post.
Gh said in the interview that they expected to dominate because they knew the teams and how to play against them. They just played calculated Dota. Even Miracle playing a more sacrificial role so Matu can free farm was part of the plan.
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Alright im back, so this really nice mod banned me for 2 weeks for pretty much nothing. Good shit right there. From now on i will just silently laugh about how bad alliance is, because those butthurt alliance fans report anything i say anyway
@topic really exited to see the guys play again after the major. Despite not being there, the boys seem to be in a good mood. Bulba curse should deal with after the dh win, liquid fighting!
User was temp banned for this post.
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Hahaha well played Hunter :D
I hope the boys will soon prove that Miracle has not made a huge mistake leaving OG. They seem to do just as well with Ana
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is there a date for planned tourneys where liquid will be involved?
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On December 11 2016 02:06 LemOn wrote:
Hahaha well played Hunter :D
I hope the boys will soon prove that Miracle has not made a huge mistake leaving OG. They seem to do just as well with Ana
he likes to be baned prolly 
on a team related note, I do not think he made a mistake nor do I think that OG won because of fly an notail being the brainz like people point out in their section
if they win something is hard to say we didn't see them going up against the best teams with GH yet and now with 700 well it will take a while to balance out...
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7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps.
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On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps.
You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines.
I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes.
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On December 13 2016 12:35 atmankulkarni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps. You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines. I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes.
Really good points. I think having the pub grinders they have along with the experience of Kuro should be a good thing for figuring out what works fairly quickly though. At least, I hope...
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On December 13 2016 14:11 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2016 12:35 atmankulkarni wrote:On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps. You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines. I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes. Really good points. I think having the pub grinders they have along with the experience of Kuro should be a good thing for figuring out what works fairly quickly though. At least, I hope...
Yes. I think the role of coach / analyst is far more important now in every team (whether by a player(s) himself or other dedicated person). They have a huge amount of work to do & possibilities to explore until some sort meta stabilizes (which might take a while).
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On December 13 2016 18:02 atmankulkarni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2016 14:11 giftdgecko wrote:On December 13 2016 12:35 atmankulkarni wrote:On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps. You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines. I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes. Really good points. I think having the pub grinders they have along with the experience of Kuro should be a good thing for figuring out what works fairly quickly though. At least, I hope... Yes. I think the role of coach / analyst is far more important now in every team (whether by a player(s) himself or other dedicated person). They have a huge amount of work to do & possibilities to explore until some sort meta stabilizes (which might take a while).
As someone that works in the IT industry I am still surprised about the professionality of their analysts.
In Truesight you saw the analyst doing some calculations in excel.. what the hell.
This is a multi million e-sport business with a lot of potential.
Go for some BI-Tools and cooperate with common databases like dotabuff - the informations are open, just screen them.
And what the hell, its e-sports, why teams are still not using social stuff like youtube to promote them, if they grow in terms of subscriptions then the team gets overrun by sponsorings.
The player are brands, they should understand that - with the talent of miracle I would be a selfmade millionair already just by pushing my brand to social media and building up start-ups with my name.
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On December 13 2016 12:35 atmankulkarni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps. You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines. I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes.
I didn't miss this fact, i mentioned it - "even tho spawn timer is higher" . My line of thought is that even having longer spawns having more camps should help distributing farm better.
As if in 6.88 you took 3 camps you almost cleared the jungle, but now if both farm the jungle it'll still be enough time to have a team fight, push an objective or lane gets safer (if your enemies were missing or something).
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Yeah hiring a full-time person to manage a liquid YouTube channel with interviews, highlights and pub match recordings of it's players is pretty much guaranteed to pay for itself , probably even directly through subs
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On December 13 2016 19:11 Pontual wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2016 12:35 atmankulkarni wrote:On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps. You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines. I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes. I didn't miss this fact, i mentioned it - "even tho spawn timer is higher" . My line of thought is that even having longer spawns having more camps should help distributing farm better. As if in 6.88 you took 3 camps you almost cleared the jungle, but now if both farm the jungle it'll still be enough time to have a team fight, push an objective or lane gets safer (if your enemies were missing or something).
Ok so you did not miss that. But I still think there is significant reduction in average farm per minute from neutrals.
The objective of having greedy cores is to avoid team-fights & farm the map as much as possible till you hit your timing. With new re-spawn times there will be more frequent team-fights (as you pointed out correctly) & less opportunity for 2 cores to continuously farm. So it seems counter-intuitive to have a team-fight cores which can fight more frequently. Or someone else would even say a balance of team-fight & greed.
As of now, all these hypothesis are very raw & equally viable 'on paper' without any solid evidence of actual pro game-play.
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On December 13 2016 19:05 Anamorph wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2016 18:02 atmankulkarni wrote:On December 13 2016 14:11 giftdgecko wrote:On December 13 2016 12:35 atmankulkarni wrote:On December 13 2016 01:36 Pontual wrote:
7.00 open up so much for liquid actually, with that many bounty runes and new camps (even tho spawn timer is higher), it's better for liquid overall because they have 2 greedy cores that can split the farm better.
It's a possibility, but 4 protect 1 will probably not be enough as it will not be that efficient with new camps. You are missing the fact that Neutral respawns are now every odd minute (instead of every minute). So even with 2 new camps there is at-least 30% less gold on the map. Along with that, assist gold is nerfed so supports would want more gold from the map. On top of this, there is no easy win condition even if you heavily win early game or mid game as gaining map control/high ground has become much more difficult with new Shrines. I don't think any type of strategy (3 cores, 2 cores, 4-protect-1) is at obvious advantage as of now until we know how the overall pace of the game is affected by these map changes. Really good points. I think having the pub grinders they have along with the experience of Kuro should be a good thing for figuring out what works fairly quickly though. At least, I hope... Yes. I think the role of coach / analyst is far more important now in every team (whether by a player(s) himself or other dedicated person). They have a huge amount of work to do & possibilities to explore until some sort meta stabilizes (which might take a while). As someone that works in the IT industry I am still surprised about the professionality of their analysts. In Truesight you saw the analyst doing some calculations in excel.. what the hell. This is a multi million e-sport business with a lot of potential. Go for some BI-Tools and cooperate with common databases like dotabuff - the informations are open, just screen them. And what the hell, its e-sports, why teams are still not using social stuff like youtube to promote them, if they grow in terms of subscriptions then the team gets overrun by sponsorings. The player are brands, they should understand that - with the talent of miracle I would be a selfmade millionair already just by pushing my brand to social media and building up start-ups with my name.
Partially agreed. I think top teams can certainly afford tech-savvy analysts & tools. Not yet for tier 2 or lower teams I think. This may be multi-million dollar business but such analysts don't come cheap either (you would know  ). Especially when they know they are directly influencing major aspects of game-play. 
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What would you suggest the analysts do and what should they use as their tools?
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Does anyone have info: Will they stream anytime soon? i want to watch some doto
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On December 17 2016 00:46 derElbe wrote:Does anyone have info: Will they stream anytime soon? i want to watch some doto
Matumbaboy streams reasonably often, can't say when tho
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EPT
