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On October 31 2016 21:00 Anamorph wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2016 19:11 LemOn wrote:On October 31 2016 14:46 DucK- wrote:
Can't wait for Bulba to get kicked, yapzor to replace him, and liquid to start dominating again. Well kicking the best player would be questionable, but the team does need an ROTK-like figure that's very vocal again, almost doesn't matter in what position. The team had godlike coordination that won so many games last season, there were so many comebacks it almost seemed like rigged, now I recall just that Bulba disruptor game out of all games they played. That it happened after we got a super quiet focused player mid instead of an active coordinator is no coincidence and why exactly this is questionable? If he does not fit, no one cares how stable he played. They need a roaming 4th with high impact in the mid matchup. And the ROTK sentence is pure speculation. You dont know who calls their actions, you have no idea who did it before and how vocal fata and jerax are. The only thing we know, that the 4th position with high mid impact is missing and thats why they have a big lane disadvantage in each mid scenario. For miracle its a big difference, he had the supporting ES, IO, etc. backing em up, fata had the ES, tusk, WW mid jerax pressuring.. the only thing we see, miracle does not perform to his standard, without having someone that babysits the mid. I see no difference in his mechanics and I watched each game twice. He is still super stable in terms of last hitting, getting the aggro, and he is still hyper aggressive as he was before, with the difference of having no one backing this action, thats why he looks like he is feeding. I would rather go the way in making miracle and matu worka gain, than letting miracle and matu swap their playstyles and hero pools to fit the non-existent roaming 4th. And their godlike coordination was a lot on jerax - just review the old replays.
Again, not sure what you're on about, he did get a lot of babysitting, we had straight up dual lanes mid in many games, the midlane became focus of our team's ganks and defense. It just happens that Kuro did it in drafts with heroes like Ogre, Dazzle, Oracle, Io rather than Tusk, ES...
You clearly haven't watched most of their games and talk out of your ass here 
Bulba is the best player on the team, it lead to Miracle getting farm lead because of a lot of babysitting early in most games.
He played very good aggro 4 when he got drafted nyx, go re-watch that replay, his impact was pretty much the same as Jerax ES. After that the Carry swapping shenanigans started and Kuro had to draft for matu 4. Bulba never had the chance to show his play as aggressive 4 and when he did he delivered.
And yeah jerax's plays were godlike in teamfights, but so was Matumba's movements, very well timed with Fata initiating and the whole team coming in and out of fights as a unit - you can't have that without communication and it's not speculation at this point that Miracle is a quiet guy and Fata/Jerax aren't. Also so many comebacks came on the back of efficient spreading of the map, and in almost every single game Matumba and Miracle started to copy their farming paths and where the team climbed from huge deficits before now the opposite started happening. Look at Miracle on dusa where he gets caught alone by 5 farming too aggressively, same happened to Matumbaman - they force each other into risky farm conditions and don't coordinate with each other, the whole team felt disjointed as opposed to clutch.
I mean yeah, jerax initiating with no farm, big impact and being vocal about it probably was a big part of it, it wasn't just about his plays but coordinating the team on the back of them (Bulldog gave insight on how players behave ingame when streaming the games, Jerax is a vocal guy apparently, talks a lot ingame, where Kuro doesn't that much as opposed to what you'd expect - and he thinks losing 2 in-game leaders in Fata, Jerax, and Miracle definitely not being one, Bulba being chill as well is why Liquid seems not to be working - there's no leader to call the shots).
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On October 31 2016 20:37 DucK- wrote:
My unbias opinion here.
The #1 problem for liquid was kuro drafts. It felt very uninspired. It has been a year, but kuro drafting is still suspect.
Then kuro decided to play carry, and we have 2 supports that can't do shit. Can't gank can't roam, can't even protect very well. They probably ran out of ideas.
Bulba played the best, but his support isn't winning games too. His inability to play more challenging supports is forcing kuro to that role. Strangely kuro is struggling considering how good he was in navi as a #4.
Bulba was the least worst, but he too is at fault for not allowing miracle to do his thing. Both supports are not protecting him enough, not making plays to allow the cores to snowball. Just being able to land teamfight spells isn't enough as a support. Its like scoring an A for mathematics and getting a D for science. 2 Bs may have been better for the overall scheme of things.
I strongly believe liquid needs a better 4, and yapzor is a potential candidate. Then kuro 5 because he is captain and better than Bulba. Now Bulba can replace mc if they want or not and it doesn't matter. The #3 doesn't need to be great, just solid enough to play their role. Maybe Bulba can be better than mc, who knows. MC certainly didn't impress during the past week
I agree with ur unbiased opinion, if they change one player, it should be Bulba for reasons above.
I dont know if this Liquid team needs change tho, they need time to adjust theier play.
Fata and Jerax defined alott of Liquids play last season. Fata is stable, stay mostly mid, rarely feeds, and rarely lose his lane. Jerax was and is a very good roamer, he creates space and havoc around the map. How many games havent we seen Jerax open up the map with his rotations, even when he feeds he makes the team win games.
If this squad wants to win, they have to start from scratch... Dont play as old Liquid, and dont just copy other teams drafts... Find ur new path.
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I just think they should stick to what they have, but stick to it better, shore up their drafting (and possibly hero pools), and stop messing around with Kuro carry.
Bulba 4/Kuro 5 still seems like it'd make a workable team with just a little tighter play and picking Miracle heroes instead of Magnus.
Hero pool especially seems troubling, like Liquid has played Miracle Mirana once (and lost) from what I can see and she's arguably one of the strongest most stable mids right now. Then a similar, but less severe, story with Miracle not playing OD mid. Like Liquid seems strong for a meta that's not this one.
(A good example is comparing TL's picks:
http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/teams/2163/picks?date=month
to the overall picks for the Boston Major:
http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/4874/picks?date=month
They look like two completely different patches
)
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Bulba played the best, but his support isn't winning games too. His inability to play more challenging supports is forcing kuro to that role. Strangely kuro is struggling considering how good he was in navi as a #4.
Obviously, you haven't watched a single game and have no idea what you're talking about. As the poster above said Bulba has played better than Kuro on all the aggressive supports. He's played more consistent than everyone on the team. His Rubick was exceptional. I'm trying to remember the game where he turns and won fights by stealing a SKs burrow strike multiple times and then stunning 3 members of the opposing team. His Nyx the other game was game winning. His defensive supports have been good, but then people bitch that he's not creating enough space by ganking as the super ganker known as Dazzle (those 1k damage heal bombs that people just run into the creep wave to take am I right). The only support I thought he was kinda lackluster on was KotL, but that could be because their entire draft was suspect in those games. He plays the role he has to.
Expecting a defensive support to make plays that aren't of the saving your carry variety is really expecting too much. If Kuro can't handle the 4 role than he should stop playing it and just leave it to Bulba.
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the real problem here is matu+miracle,both are pos 1 player. so kick matumbaman,bring back fata.
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On November 01 2016 02:48 Papercappu wrote:
the real problem here is matu+miracle,both are pos 1 player. so kick matumbaman,bring back fata.
People said the same thing for arteezy sumail for the first time. It was fuckin awful, the time fear moved to pos 4. But now it's working fine, they won a considerable tournament and are one of the favorites. Don't think kicking matumba is the answer. Give them some time, they have been together for 1 month or 2 only.
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On November 01 2016 02:58 Pontual wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2016 02:48 Papercappu wrote:
the real problem here is matu+miracle,both are pos 1 player. so kick matumbaman,bring back fata. People said the same thing for arteezy sumail for the first time. It was fuckin awful, the time fear moved to pos 4. But now it's working fine, they won a considerable tournament and are one of the favorites. Don't think kicking matumba is the answer. Give them some time, they have been together for 1 month or 2 only.
Poeple also have this idea that they were awful the first time (after TI 2015), but they werent, they were actually doing rather good, the expectations were just sky high after winning a TI.
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On November 01 2016 03:43 Atoissen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2016 02:58 Pontual wrote:On November 01 2016 02:48 Papercappu wrote:
the real problem here is matu+miracle,both are pos 1 player. so kick matumbaman,bring back fata. People said the same thing for arteezy sumail for the first time. It was fuckin awful, the time fear moved to pos 4. But now it's working fine, they won a considerable tournament and are one of the favorites. Don't think kicking matumba is the answer. Give them some time, they have been together for 1 month or 2 only. Poeple also have this idea that they were awful the first time (after TI 2015), but they werent, they were actually doing rather good, the expectations were just sky high after winning a TI.
Just checked, Eg placed 3rd place both frankfurt and shangai major. My argument is wrong, but my claim is still standing: Give them some time, they have been together for 1 month or 2 only.
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On November 01 2016 02:58 Pontual wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2016 02:48 Papercappu wrote:
the real problem here is matu+miracle,both are pos 1 player. so kick matumbaman,bring back fata. People said the same thing for arteezy sumail for the first time. It was fuckin awful, the time fear moved to pos 4. But now it's working fine, they won a considerable tournament and are one of the favorites. Don't think kicking matumba is the answer. Give them some time, they have been together for 1 month or 2 only.
theres clearly a problem when kuro & matu keep changing roles mid series.something needs to change. also arteezy+sumail was never a problem. this stupid meme needs to die already
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The perspective on it is a bit weird too. Who are Liquid exactly worse than? All of the EU teams are trading wins pretty consistently. OG had the big MDL showing, but they also dropped a game to Empire to be eliminated from FACEIT (their only other showing so far). Secret got eliminated earlier than TL in the qualifiers, AF bombed in FACEIT and DotaPit qualifiers, and so on with all the other teams. Yeah TL hasn't picked up a good win lately, but there's not really any consistent winners in the scene either.
Like yeah we'd like TL (or Secret, or possibly even OG) to just be a clear cut above the rest of the EU scene and that's not an unreasonable ideal, but it's not like TL is the only team struggling in the EU scene; I think the scene in general has gotten really tight.
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On November 01 2016 04:01 Logo wrote:
The perspective on it is a bit weird too. Who are Liquid exactly worse than? All of the EU teams are trading wins pretty consistently. OG had the big MDL showing, but they also dropped a game to Empire to be eliminated from FACEIT (their only other showing so far). Secret got eliminated earlier than TL in the qualifiers, AF bombed in FACEIT and DotaPit qualifiers, and so on with all the other teams. Yeah TL hasn't picked up a good win lately, but there's not really any consistent winners in the scene either.
Like yeah we'd like TL (or Secret, or possibly even OG) to just be a clear cut above the rest of the EU scene and that's not an unreasonable ideal, but it's not like TL is the only team struggling in the EU scene; I think the scene in general has gotten really tight.
Agree with this so much. 1 more quali slot and TL would be in. And everyone here would be, yeah they have problems but they have time to fix.
Right now is "kick him", "no kick the other one", "just disband". It's not that big of a catastrophe, Eu region was hard AF.
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I think the biggest reason is that the whole team is not nearly the sum of it's parts, especially when Bulba who was on paper the weakest link has clearly stepped up surprisingly.
If we e.g. had Alliance's lineup which is very similar to last year's liquid in 3 relative newcomers we'd be more than happy with their performance.
But it's just a shame to watch established players be so disjointed - although I think we are All hyping Matumba and Miracle way too much though, they are after all not proven they can deliver in the long run and adapt at all, really being successfull only with one team dynamic so far.
Maybe we can approach them as we did 5J back then and be glad we have a team. They are working hard that's for sure
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whelp would you look at that I called it over way earlier than it really was, but unsurprisingly we still lost
I was a strong proponent of changing but since I am also a sucker for good Cinderella stories I want them to keep it going, but I won't moan if they change either
also to the people claiming they have been together for a short period of time
- it was their decision to get a break and start playing only just before DL, this excuse can't be used, they knew they would have to work but they maybe took it for granted that they would gel, didn't happen
- the swapping, dunno if kuro wanted to show matumba how to play around miracle or whut happened there, as far as we all know matu could play all the heroes kuro played as carry (one might remember matu playing support also for the finstack good days)
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lol, we might be playing AF in ESL qualis, what a bummer...
edit: or maybe not, seems they drunk too much
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I'd like people to name a team which did not get better after kicking bulba, disbands do not count.
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On November 01 2016 05:48 nojok wrote:
I'd like people to name a team which did not get better after kicking bulba, disbands do not count.
I'll go for the low hanging fruit.. freaking team Secret?
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On November 01 2016 05:48 nojok wrote:
I'd like people to name a team which did not get better after kicking bulba, disbands do not count.
Has any team gotten better?
Evil Geniuses (2011/2012) didn't qualify for TI in 2013 after losing Bulba.
Team Liquid disbanded.
Mousesports disbanded.
DC changed 4 players at once (and Resolution had only joined a month before) which is pretty much a disband.
Team Secret hasn't yet shown they are any better than their TI6 roster. Well at least Secret qualified for TI6.
So the one exception is EG 2016 getting Bulba where you are comparing Bulba to EG getting back Universe.
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On November 01 2016 05:48 nojok wrote:
I'd like people to name a team which did not get better after kicking bulba, disbands do not count.
Scamcret, DC basically disbanded, Liquid disbanded, EG is the only one that actually got better, and that was mostly removing aui carry
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Liquid vs Ad Finem round 2 at ESL One Qualifier. I hope Liquid get their revenge
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EPT
