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I second the notion of trying out Bulba 4pos and Kuro 5pos, I mean it can't get much worse.
But imo it isnt the only thing thats problematic atm, the MATU Miracle- dynamic is somewhat awkward. But I believe that it will settle over time.
But I still believe! Go Liquid!
P.S.: Escape seems to have pretty much the "old" Liquid dynamic with only small nuances, I mean you have a stable backbone in Era (FATA-), a flashy player with high individual skill (Qojqva - MATU), oldschool pro on hard supp (Syn - Kuro), an excelent playmaker (Yapz0r - JeraX) and solid off (MC - Khezu). And it seems to be working for them.
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Well they should start swapping, Kuro still had a super sick rubick vs Alliance basically singlehandedly ripping that game open. His wisp is also great. But he should not be afraid to pick up the dazzle, Ogre and give Bulba a shot on stuff like Tusk, clock (ESC drafted ot just to rub salt on the wound it seems vs Bulba ).
Bulba plays a great dazzle though, got a lot better on Oracle too but we can still speculate that not being on these simple heroes hurts Kuros ability to call shots ingame.
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Also yeah, Matumba/Miracle is still tough to balance.
They tried to put Miracle on playmakers but that somewhat worked out on rubick, but his bat was straight up shit and he seemed lost often, and both guys get caught unnecessarily as they struggle to find compatible farm paths that don't lead to danger ( that ESC series matu had ultra farmed Sven freefarm with essential 4p1 draft. Only to clean fees get caught when he went to trees next to their Tier2. Only for Miracle to do the same thing on dusa in critical stage of the game next to his own side shop) . Same with trying to force Matumba on Huskar, he was just straight up bad in aggro trilane, not fitting his style.
Supports can polish it out as Bulba's hero pool expands and their get in some small changes. Same with communication with time. MC is a great player on offlane if you don't happen to give him Timbersaur.
But Miracle/Matumba on one team? It's just way less natural pairing than Miracle/Notail and Matumba/Fata that makes me wonder if rather than trying to bend one's style that'll take long time and won't play to each player's strenght it wouldn't be easier to just swap one of them asap for someone more compatible
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So I like him but Mind Control seems to be the real problem right now (I didn't watch yesterdays games so I don't know what happened there) he seems to not really be doing anything that is helping and he is feeding (Bat rider game) it seems like he doesn't know how to play with the team/patch.
edit: yeah watching the first game from yesterday and same thing on timbersaw, 3 man gank fails and koru dies and MC just goes over to farm in lane and then just dies 3-1 when he knew 3 were there....
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On October 26 2016 21:48 LemOn wrote:
Timbersaur
Don't trigger me.
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On October 26 2016 22:45 YourGoodFriend wrote:
So I like him but Mind Control seems to be the real problem right now (I didn't watch yesterdays games so I don't know what happened there) he seems to not really be doing anything that is helping and he is feeding (Bat rider game) it seems like he doesn't know how to play with the team/patch.
edit: yeah watching the first game from yesterday and same thing on timbersaw, 3 man gank fails and koru dies and MC just goes over to farm in lane and then just dies 3-1 when he knew 3 were there....
Mind Control got sacrificed all the time in the old Liquid too though. Most games it was more a 2 cores 3 supp lineup, especially last spring when he played mostly Slardar. Usually it did not matter because Liquid won the other two lanes.
But I don't think it is his fault, it seemed fully intentional in the old Lineup. He just is not that good a farmer, why draft him a Timbersaw then.
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On October 26 2016 23:56 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 22:45 YourGoodFriend wrote:
So I like him but Mind Control seems to be the real problem right now (I didn't watch yesterdays games so I don't know what happened there) he seems to not really be doing anything that is helping and he is feeding (Bat rider game) it seems like he doesn't know how to play with the team/patch.
edit: yeah watching the first game from yesterday and same thing on timbersaw, 3 man gank fails and koru dies and MC just goes over to farm in lane and then just dies 3-1 when he knew 3 were there.... Mind Control got sacrificed all the time in the old Liquid too though. Most games it was more a 2 cores 3 supp lineup, especially last spring when he played mostly Slardar. Usually it did not matter because Liquid won the other two lanes. But I don't think it is his fault, it seemed fully intentional in the old Lineup. He just is not that good a farmer, why draft him a Timbersaw then.
Well there is sacrifice and then there is bad play, a lot of him getting killed is him getting caught in lane when he has no business being there (all enemy cores off the map, just saw them in the area, pushed up to the tower farming with no backup etc.)
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On October 26 2016 23:47 Racket wrote:Don't trigger me.
?
You don't like the hero?
I do think he's not suited for MC much
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On October 27 2016 00:16 YourGoodFriend wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 23:56 Xurr wrote:On October 26 2016 22:45 YourGoodFriend wrote:
So I like him but Mind Control seems to be the real problem right now (I didn't watch yesterdays games so I don't know what happened there) he seems to not really be doing anything that is helping and he is feeding (Bat rider game) it seems like he doesn't know how to play with the team/patch.
edit: yeah watching the first game from yesterday and same thing on timbersaw, 3 man gank fails and koru dies and MC just goes over to farm in lane and then just dies 3-1 when he knew 3 were there.... Mind Control got sacrificed all the time in the old Liquid too though. Most games it was more a 2 cores 3 supp lineup, especially last spring when he played mostly Slardar. Usually it did not matter because Liquid won the other two lanes. But I don't think it is his fault, it seemed fully intentional in the old Lineup. He just is not that good a farmer, why draft him a Timbersaw then. Well there is sacrifice and then there is bad play, a lot of him getting killed is him getting caught in lane when he has no business being there (all enemy cores off the map, just saw them in the area, pushed up to the tower farming with no backup etc.)
Yeah those two Timbersaur games he played bad from early lane to farming - when he played with Wisp in lane he just didn't know the limits, died with plain wrong chains etc. I'm not sure why we'd even need to put him on greedy heroes when we already have 2 greedy players by nature, don't think that limits the team that he can't play heroes like this
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oddly enough he ended up as the most farmed hero on Liquid's side at one point in that game when kuro was on wisp, I'm not really sure how that happened lol
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On October 27 2016 02:21 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 23:47 Racket wrote:On October 26 2016 21:48 LemOn wrote:
Timbersaur Don't trigger me. ? You don't like the hero? I do think he's not suited for MC much
You made a dinosaur out of Timbersaw. It was funny enough to almost trigger me.
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On October 27 2016 02:47 OmniEulogy wrote:
oddly enough he ended up as the most farmed hero on Liquid's side at one point in that game when kuro was on wisp, I'm not really sure how that happened lol
Timbesaw almost always end up as the most farmed hero.
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At the end of the day the only thing we can see is how good a player is at pressing the buttons, which means nothing. Some players tilt easier than others when they see no path to victory, some players will never play good if they don't trust their teammates or believe in the team or if they disagree with the draft/strategy/style.
It's basically irrelevant who's the best or the worst player when the team performs like this. If anybody gets booted out it will be the person that doesn't mesh well with the rest. Since this is a completely new team, it could be anyone at this point, or any number of players if the organization decides to stick with Kuro no matter what.
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A big problem is the laning stage. I think they lost all 3 lanes in all games i watched. They give MC a greedy offlane hero ( Timber, Razor?, nyx) and pick two defensive supports. So the other team can exploit liquids line up. They know they won't gank mid or offlane and if they zone MC out early than their supports are free to roam, so the other team just picks a strong offlaner (like ds) and a strong roaming support(ES) and ez win.
They should definitly draft stronger offlane heros for MC to at least keep the supports there and make space for mid. MC plays a really good dark seer and his tide and void are solid.
Also the switch from kuro to 5 and focusing on shot calling and bulba to 4 is probably a good idea. Or let bulba captain and kuro stays at 4. And than let him play rubik/lion and focus on making stuff happen on the map.Also with their two defensive support duo(dazzle,omni,wisp,oracle) they always lack team fight/stuns. They need more control from the supports/offlane to let their cores shine. Them not dying for 5 sec in an already lost fight is not the way to go. In the sven game for example their only stuns were lasso+ sven stun. Or in the other game they had a lifestealer with no stuns apart from dusa ult.
If they can improve the laning stage than the miracle/matu combo can work, but losing the laning stage so hard means less map control and less space to farm leading to miracle/matu taking farm from each other.
So stronger lanes. More team fight/control heros for the supports/offlane. A more well developed game plan. If they can achive this they have a chance at least be a T2 team again and dont lose to Flipside.
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So are we back to drafting MC dark seer every game again?
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On October 27 2016 06:19 TriCkster135 wrote:
A big problem is the laning stage. I think they lost all 3 lanes in all games i watched. They give MC a greedy offlane hero ( Timber, Razor?, nyx) and pick two defensive supports. So the other team can exploit liquids line up. They know they won't gank mid or offlane and if they zone MC out early than their supports are free to roam, so the other team just picks a strong offlaner (like ds) and a strong roaming support(ES) and ez win.
They should definitly draft stronger offlane heros for MC to at least keep the supports there and make space for mid. MC plays a really good dark seer and his tide and void are solid.
Also the switch from kuro to 5 and focusing on shot calling and bulba to 4 is probably a good idea. Or let bulba captain and kuro stays at 4. And than let him play rubik/lion and focus on making stuff happen on the map.Also with their two defensive support duo(dazzle,omni,wisp,oracle) they always lack team fight/stuns. They need more control from the supports/offlane to let their cores shine. Them not dying for 5 sec in an already lost fight is not the way to go. In the sven game for example their only stuns were lasso+ sven stun. Or in the other game they had a lifestealer with no stuns apart from dusa ult.
If they can improve the laning stage than the miracle/matu combo can work, but losing the laning stage so hard means less map control and less space to farm leading to miracle/matu taking farm from each other.
So stronger lanes. More team fight/control heros for the supports/offlane. A more well developed game plan. If they can achive this they have a chance at least be a T2 team again and dont lose to Flipside.
100% Agree. You have two 9K mmr core players. I don't think you need to hold their hand in lane with defensive supports for them to come out ahead in the laning stage. If you can keep the other team's supports busy with one or maybe even two aggressive supports of your own, the individual skill of your cores will shine more and they will get the better of the 1v1 or maybe even 1v2 lanes that are presented to them. Could be completely wrong, I just feel like in the current meta, having two ultra defensive supports (Wisp, Omni, Dazzle, etc...) lets the other team dictate the pace of the game far to much. Here's to hoping Liquid can figure out their issues for the Boston qualifiers!
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Damn these qualifiers are stacked. If they make it to the playoffs it will be a miracle. First game in 7 hours, and now is definitely the time to shine.
I am willing to believe - fingers crossed!
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Now that's what we wanted to see from day one. Stable draft, good gameplan, and most importantly - team work. Like the casters said they were on the same page.
Keep them coming!
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Now that was a good game, good draft, mind control played really well on his slardar, great execution good stuff team
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EPT
