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On June 24 2015 16:27 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 03:26 Gear 3rd wrote:
Its so funny yet confusing that when Alliance were on top of TI3 with their 'rat dota' style of play i hated them for that. I was annoyed everytime i saw them play! On the other hand now Secret seems to do more or less the same, or at least a very similar playstyle but it doesnt bother me at all. I wouldnt even call it rat dota (for 'some' reason).
Is it really just the personal flavor of liking kky and ppy (kuroky is by far my favourite pro player I'd say) and disliking Loda, or is it a difference in their style which i cannot differenciate? I mean tbh it took me a while to even classify secrets playstyle as splitpush-heavy... I guess most people dislike getting ratted in their games, and when they see their team losing to rat, it annoys them even more. But when the team they cheer for rats, magically it becomes bearable or even something praiseworthy. It does not make the rat players less deserving of anything though, but I find rather sad when players that are able to deliver such high level of play resort to rat, it is understandable tho, they want to win no matter what. I believe it all come to personal tastes and experiences. I couldn't stand if the team I cheer for go rat, even if that gets them a TI. I don't respect the playstyle and I never will. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", for us it felt the same as ratting in Dota, we were friends and there was no need for such tactics.
The amount of games alliance actually needed to RAT wasn't that big , they split pushed a lot , thats true , but they didn't rat that much , when the enemy team picks pugna DK Chen and SS you aren't going to go into them , you counter pick and execute your start , when you see a pushing lineup lose , its always on that high ground push when the other team just runs back to defend , never engaging outside , letting the pushing team commit and stop the death push once and usually its enough , i don't see split pushing any worse then 5 manning towers with Tide mek in the front .... its all the same.
If you go back to watch TI3 , you will see many games were they just killed the other team non stop and won games like that with the Naga + Gyro , or even with NP , the extreme rat occurs only when you MISS your timing and can't actually win a 5v5 anymore .
Dota is about timing , every inch of this game is about it , and if the drafts are so different in their timings (one is early game and one is late) then if the early game team misses it , its over , they can't win without "outplaying"/"ratting".
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On June 24 2015 22:37 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 16:27 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 03:26 Gear 3rd wrote:
Its so funny yet confusing that when Alliance were on top of TI3 with their 'rat dota' style of play i hated them for that. I was annoyed everytime i saw them play! On the other hand now Secret seems to do more or less the same, or at least a very similar playstyle but it doesnt bother me at all. I wouldnt even call it rat dota (for 'some' reason).
Is it really just the personal flavor of liking kky and ppy (kuroky is by far my favourite pro player I'd say) and disliking Loda, or is it a difference in their style which i cannot differenciate? I mean tbh it took me a while to even classify secrets playstyle as splitpush-heavy... I guess most people dislike getting ratted in their games, and when they see their team losing to rat, it annoys them even more. But when the team they cheer for rats, magically it becomes bearable or even something praiseworthy. It does not make the rat players less deserving of anything though, but I find rather sad when players that are able to deliver such high level of play resort to rat, it is understandable tho, they want to win no matter what. I believe it all come to personal tastes and experiences. I couldn't stand if the team I cheer for go rat, even if that gets them a TI. I don't respect the playstyle and I never will. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", for us it felt the same as ratting in Dota, we were friends and there was no need for such tactics. The amount of games alliance actually needed to RAT wasn't that big , they split pushed a lot , thats true , but they didn't rat that much , when the enemy team picks pugna DK Chen and SS you aren't going to go into them , you counter pick and execute your start , when you see a pushing lineup lose , its always on that high ground push when the other team just runs back to defend , never engaging outside , letting the pushing team commit and stop the death push once and usually its enough , i don't see split pushing any worse then 5 manning towers with Tide mek in the front .... its all the same. If you go back to watch TI3 , you will see many games were they just killed the other team non stop and won games like that with the Naga + Gyro , or even with NP , the extreme rat occurs only when you MISS your timing and can't actually win a 5v5 anymore . Dota is about timing , every inch of this game is about it , and if the drafts are so different in their timings (one is early game and one is late) then if the early game team misses it , its over , they can't win without "outplaying"/"ratting".
No doubt about it.
Lets be clear about something, everything has its name/denomination/description, sometimes given by their haters, for instance Rat, which IIRC began with the backdoor thingy, and then spread to avoid fighting and splitpushing.
I suppose a lot of people try to defend some playstyles because they were given "mean" names, like Rat. IMO there is no need for that. No hater will stop calling it that, because it is the only way to vent their frustration.
And about Alliance, well... even if their amount of Rat wasn't as big, they made their name with it, so "You made your bed, now sleep in it" I guess it is the correct expression.
They won a TI relocating a CK and teleporting with NP, what else would you expect.
Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to flame anyone or anything, just an explanation. In any case, Rat - or whatever you wanna call it - is a valid strategy as much as building Carriers, and should be used to any extent if it is required to achieve victory.
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On June 24 2015 17:45 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 17:10 goody153 wrote:Racket please all teams "good" teams know how to rat nowadays. I can't believe you don't actually know what Ratdota is about and you've been posting here for a long time. You clearly think that "ratting" is exclusively "splitpushing". Which is a completely wrong . You do realize that rat playstyle is just "avoiding fights until the time is right to fight" ? Which is called "smart fighting". Why are you even playing/watching dota if you don't like the concept of it? It's like the very core of the game right now . One of the things that separates dota from others is that it's not all about "fighting" there is this thing called resource allocation and map movement which involves in "farming". If you wanted to all fighting then why don't you play wc3 hero arenas or something similar. Looks like you just wanted mindless brawl which is not dota. You'll find more luck on other games with your thought process you will end up disappointed cause that's not what dota is about. You'll find endless poking of each other without killing or avoiding fights a lot for good positioning or the spells are in CD or until items are up in dota alot. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", It's like goliaths/hydras/scourge don't exist. Goody, first of all I am not sure every team knows how to rat nowadays, for instance I still have to see NaVi do it, every time they tried it they only humiliated themselves. Also, I know what it is about, splitpush is just an example that shows it the easiest: when you wanna fight me I go back meanwhile one of my pals gets some other lane. It is a simplification. I already said it before, Secret has shown themselves as particularly focused in split pushing this last tournament (as opposed to two months ago), whether they were losing or winning, attacking or defending, 75% of those situations had RTZ or s4 split pushing (only if they had the items to do so), even while team fights 4v5 were taking place. I can only commend them for achieving such a feat even if I don't like the style (which is completely personal and I have no interest arguing whether it is respectable, I am not here to fight over that). I watch dota because I like CIS dota style. Dota was not always about rat (smart fighting), if it were we would have no other playstyles other than that. We had a lot of successful playstyles through these last four or five years. I don't think CIS doto is mindless brawl either (not saying that you implied that, just trying to make a connection between the messy fights I like to see, were I find the most joy seeing how they outplay each other, and your description of what dota ain't about). For instance, why is Suma1l praised so much? Because of his Storm, which he outplays many people with, even if he is not better farmed or the fight could not be called a smart fight given his position or being outnumbered or whatever.Lastly, man come on... of course, we also had scouts, but when you play with friends just to enjoy the while, there is no need for 200/200 carriers.... Like when you play football with friends and there is always that dumb one who goes at the ball like your feet is not behind it, and then he says "you should have moved then, it is not my fault"... No, if you wanna win so bad go play a tournament. You know what was our way to deal with carrier makers? We rushed 4v1 him at the beginning and then he was out of the whole game. What was the counter strategy of our opponents? Given that we played lan games, they all used the same nickname, so you could never know for sure who was who.
rofl
What kind of starcraft are you playing ? that feels like more like the casual starcraft not the Iccup starcraft brutal starcraft cause you guys are scared of carriers .. and you lost to a 4v1 ? lol
Cause 200/200 carrier doesn't exactly win against a well controlled goliath force. Unless you are a dumb terran and you just a-click and allow the carriers to mop you. Hell even zergs and protoss have solutions to that while they build up carrier and even if they managed to you should be able to build up a force that will kill that in a war of attrition.
That's not correct about suma1l .. check his games whenever he plays as storm "it's playable" and not a "nightmare" to play . Cause he picks targets that are actually killable.
Even your CIS doto takes advantage of where they have the strong position and hero advantage. That's not mindless brawl. Are you are asking is that people should still fight even when they are in a questionable position ? Just because you think it's MANLY ? that's just dumb. I already told you what you are asking is not dota but a HERO ARENA type of game where you just FIGHT ALL THE TIME.
And you are not even correct about rtz/s4 mostly ratting cause secret wins through facerush skirmishes and 5 man pushes ,.Yes that's how CIS teams usually win. And that's how secret does it most of the time.
You are asking to remove the strategic diversity of what actually makes DOTA GOOD. You are trying to make dota some kind of dumb non-stop fighting hero arena.
like i said if you want something like that that's not dota that's exactly hero arena. Seems like farming and whatever doesn't really matter to you with how you are saying this i doubt you even understand whenever some map rotation happens from some team and why they stay on that area if you all just wanted is to brawl.
You also probably just made a stereotype of ratdota since navi lost to alliance ti3 and it stuck on you that alliance can only do ratdota. And you don't even seem to realize that alliance won most of their matches of TI3 by outplaying them and not because of ratdota.
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On June 24 2015 23:25 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 17:45 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 17:10 goody153 wrote:Racket please all teams "good" teams know how to rat nowadays. I can't believe you don't actually know what Ratdota is about and you've been posting here for a long time. You clearly think that "ratting" is exclusively "splitpushing". Which is a completely wrong . You do realize that rat playstyle is just "avoiding fights until the time is right to fight" ? Which is called "smart fighting". Why are you even playing/watching dota if you don't like the concept of it? It's like the very core of the game right now . One of the things that separates dota from others is that it's not all about "fighting" there is this thing called resource allocation and map movement which involves in "farming". If you wanted to all fighting then why don't you play wc3 hero arenas or something similar. Looks like you just wanted mindless brawl which is not dota. You'll find more luck on other games with your thought process you will end up disappointed cause that's not what dota is about. You'll find endless poking of each other without killing or avoiding fights a lot for good positioning or the spells are in CD or until items are up in dota alot. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", It's like goliaths/hydras/scourge don't exist. Goody, first of all I am not sure every team knows how to rat nowadays, for instance I still have to see NaVi do it, every time they tried it they only humiliated themselves. Also, I know what it is about, splitpush is just an example that shows it the easiest: when you wanna fight me I go back meanwhile one of my pals gets some other lane. It is a simplification. I already said it before, Secret has shown themselves as particularly focused in split pushing this last tournament (as opposed to two months ago), whether they were losing or winning, attacking or defending, 75% of those situations had RTZ or s4 split pushing (only if they had the items to do so), even while team fights 4v5 were taking place. I can only commend them for achieving such a feat even if I don't like the style (which is completely personal and I have no interest arguing whether it is respectable, I am not here to fight over that). I watch dota because I like CIS dota style. Dota was not always about rat (smart fighting), if it were we would have no other playstyles other than that. We had a lot of successful playstyles through these last four or five years. I don't think CIS doto is mindless brawl either (not saying that you implied that, just trying to make a connection between the messy fights I like to see, were I find the most joy seeing how they outplay each other, and your description of what dota ain't about). For instance, why is Suma1l praised so much? Because of his Storm, which he outplays many people with, even if he is not better farmed or the fight could not be called a smart fight given his position or being outnumbered or whatever.Lastly, man come on... of course, we also had scouts, but when you play with friends just to enjoy the while, there is no need for 200/200 carriers.... Like when you play football with friends and there is always that dumb one who goes at the ball like your feet is not behind it, and then he says "you should have moved then, it is not my fault"... No, if you wanna win so bad go play a tournament. You know what was our way to deal with carrier makers? We rushed 4v1 him at the beginning and then he was out of the whole game. What was the counter strategy of our opponents? Given that we played lan games, they all used the same nickname, so you could never know for sure who was who. rofl What kind of starcraft are you playing ? that feels like more like the casual starcraft not the Iccup starcraft brutal starcraft cause you guys are scared of carriers .. and you lost to a 4v1 ? lol Cause 200/200 carrier doesn't exactly win against a well controlled goliath force. Unless you are a dumb terran and you just a-click and allow the carriers to mop you. Hell even zergs and protoss have solutions to that while they build up carrier and even if they managed to you should be able to build up a force that will kill that in a war of attrition. That's not correct about suma1l .. check his games whenever he plays as storm "it's playable" and not a "nightmare" to play . Cause he picks targets that are actually killable. Even your CIS doto takes advantage of where they have the strong position and hero advantage. That's not mindless brawl. Are you are asking is that people should still fight even when they are in a questionable position ? Just because you think it's MANLY ? that's just dumb. I already told you what you are asking is not dota but a HERO ARENA type of game where you just FIGHT ALL THE TIME. And you are not even correct about rtz/s4 mostly ratting cause secret wins through facerush skirmishes and 5 man pushes ,.Yes that's how CIS teams usually win. And that's how secret does it most of the time. You are asking to remove the strategic diversity of what actually makes DOTA GOOD. You are trying to make dota some kind of dumb non-stop fighting hero arena. like i said if you want something like that that's not dota that's exactly hero arena. Seems like farming and whatever doesn't really matter to you with how you are saying this i doubt you even understand whenever some map rotation happens from some team and why they stay on that area if you all just wanted is to brawl. You also probably just made a stereotype of ratdota since navi lost to alliance ti3 and it stuck on you that alliance can only do ratdota. And you don't even seem to realize that alliance won most of their matches of TI3 by outplaying them and not because of ratdota.
Goody, you are getting me wrong. All wrong.
First, what do you understand when I said starcraft between friends? On LAN, not 4v1 but 4v4, where we punished the one that went carriers in a 4v4 while we all were doing dumb stuff to each other instead of playing following a specific build order. It was for fun and no one raged because of that.
Second, why do you take everything I mention to an extreme?
We have seen Suma1l outplay two or even three people in situations were most players would just try to run. I don't mean it like he goes blindfolded against everything and everyone... please.
I am not an extremist, I don't ask to fight lost battles, my point was a generalization of CIS doto where a lot of small skirmishes get extended to a point where many other "regions" (if you wanna call it that) would just pull back a few deaths before.
Where did I say s4 and RTZ mostly rat? I said Secret make an extremely good use of splitpushing even in situations where other teams would rather "5v5 or splitpush plus the other four go back" instead of "4v5 plus splitpush", and I mention s4 and RTZ because I have seen Zai only splitpush on Broodmother (maybe I missed some other).
I never asked to remove anything, I answered to Gear 3rd, so read his comment, then try to get into my mind while reading mine and maybe you will understand me. Also, I didn't make any stereotype, I am not the only one calling this playstyle rat. I never had the intention to whine about this if you took it that way, I merely answered a comment trying to give an explanation that may be wrong.
Please stop filling blanks in my comments, there are no blanks, if you feel there are then just ask me what I meant.
EDIT: About Alliance, when did they become a well know team world-wide and how? If you look up some videos about that, what do you find? It is not me, it is not my idea. It is what they are known for. Some may differ, I don't care. I don't have anything against the guys.
I even think S4 is better mid than Dendi, the guy who got me back to watch dota, you get it? I am not that petty, please don't underestimate me.
EDIT2: Alliance didn't even exist 6 months before winning TI, the players existed, the team didn't. Four months after getting together they win TI, there is not much more to dig about what made them famous.
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s4 interview
http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331731245168/the-secret-to-success-at-esl-one-frankfurt'
On June 24 2015 23:49 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 23:25 goody153 wrote:On June 24 2015 17:45 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 17:10 goody153 wrote:Racket please all teams "good" teams know how to rat nowadays. I can't believe you don't actually know what Ratdota is about and you've been posting here for a long time. You clearly think that "ratting" is exclusively "splitpushing". Which is a completely wrong . You do realize that rat playstyle is just "avoiding fights until the time is right to fight" ? Which is called "smart fighting". Why are you even playing/watching dota if you don't like the concept of it? It's like the very core of the game right now . One of the things that separates dota from others is that it's not all about "fighting" there is this thing called resource allocation and map movement which involves in "farming". If you wanted to all fighting then why don't you play wc3 hero arenas or something similar. Looks like you just wanted mindless brawl which is not dota. You'll find more luck on other games with your thought process you will end up disappointed cause that's not what dota is about. You'll find endless poking of each other without killing or avoiding fights a lot for good positioning or the spells are in CD or until items are up in dota alot. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", It's like goliaths/hydras/scourge don't exist. Goody, first of all I am not sure every team knows how to rat nowadays, for instance I still have to see NaVi do it, every time they tried it they only humiliated themselves. Also, I know what it is about, splitpush is just an example that shows it the easiest: when you wanna fight me I go back meanwhile one of my pals gets some other lane. It is a simplification. I already said it before, Secret has shown themselves as particularly focused in split pushing this last tournament (as opposed to two months ago), whether they were losing or winning, attacking or defending, 75% of those situations had RTZ or s4 split pushing (only if they had the items to do so), even while team fights 4v5 were taking place. I can only commend them for achieving such a feat even if I don't like the style (which is completely personal and I have no interest arguing whether it is respectable, I am not here to fight over that). I watch dota because I like CIS dota style. Dota was not always about rat (smart fighting), if it were we would have no other playstyles other than that. We had a lot of successful playstyles through these last four or five years. I don't think CIS doto is mindless brawl either (not saying that you implied that, just trying to make a connection between the messy fights I like to see, were I find the most joy seeing how they outplay each other, and your description of what dota ain't about). For instance, why is Suma1l praised so much? Because of his Storm, which he outplays many people with, even if he is not better farmed or the fight could not be called a smart fight given his position or being outnumbered or whatever.Lastly, man come on... of course, we also had scouts, but when you play with friends just to enjoy the while, there is no need for 200/200 carriers.... Like when you play football with friends and there is always that dumb one who goes at the ball like your feet is not behind it, and then he says "you should have moved then, it is not my fault"... No, if you wanna win so bad go play a tournament. You know what was our way to deal with carrier makers? We rushed 4v1 him at the beginning and then he was out of the whole game. What was the counter strategy of our opponents? Given that we played lan games, they all used the same nickname, so you could never know for sure who was who. rofl What kind of starcraft are you playing ? that feels like more like the casual starcraft not the Iccup starcraft brutal starcraft cause you guys are scared of carriers .. and you lost to a 4v1 ? lol Cause 200/200 carrier doesn't exactly win against a well controlled goliath force. Unless you are a dumb terran and you just a-click and allow the carriers to mop you. Hell even zergs and protoss have solutions to that while they build up carrier and even if they managed to you should be able to build up a force that will kill that in a war of attrition. That's not correct about suma1l .. check his games whenever he plays as storm "it's playable" and not a "nightmare" to play . Cause he picks targets that are actually killable. Even your CIS doto takes advantage of where they have the strong position and hero advantage. That's not mindless brawl. Are you are asking is that people should still fight even when they are in a questionable position ? Just because you think it's MANLY ? that's just dumb. I already told you what you are asking is not dota but a HERO ARENA type of game where you just FIGHT ALL THE TIME. And you are not even correct about rtz/s4 mostly ratting cause secret wins through facerush skirmishes and 5 man pushes ,.Yes that's how CIS teams usually win. And that's how secret does it most of the time. You are asking to remove the strategic diversity of what actually makes DOTA GOOD. You are trying to make dota some kind of dumb non-stop fighting hero arena. like i said if you want something like that that's not dota that's exactly hero arena. Seems like farming and whatever doesn't really matter to you with how you are saying this i doubt you even understand whenever some map rotation happens from some team and why they stay on that area if you all just wanted is to brawl. You also probably just made a stereotype of ratdota since navi lost to alliance ti3 and it stuck on you that alliance can only do ratdota. And you don't even seem to realize that alliance won most of their matches of TI3 by outplaying them and not because of ratdota. Goody, you are getting me wrong. All wrong. First, what do you understand when I said starcraft between friends? On LAN, not 4v1 but 4v4, where we punished the one that went carriers in a 4v4 while we all were doing dumb stuff to each other instead of playing following a specific build order. It was for fun and no one raged because of that. Second, why do you take everything I mention to an extreme? We have seen Suma1l outplay two or even three people in situations were most players would just try to run. I don't mean it like he goes blindfolded against everything and everyone... please. I am not an extremist, I don't ask to fight lost battles, my point was a generalization of CIS doto where a lot of small skirmishes get extended to a point where many other "regions" (if you wanna call it that) would just pull back a few deaths before. Where did I say s4 and RTZ mostly rat? I said Secret make an extremely good use of splitpushing even in situations where other teams would rather "5v5 or splitpush plus the other four go back" instead of "4v5 plus splitpush", and I mention s4 and RTZ because I have seen Zai only splitpush on Broodmother (maybe I missed some other). I never asked to remove anything, I answered to Gear 3rd, so read his comment, then try to get into my mind while reading mine and maybe you will understand me. Also, I didn't make any stereotype, I am not the only one calling this playstyle rat. I never had the intention to whine about this if you took it that way, I merely answered a comment trying to give an explanation that may be wrong. Please stop filling blanks in my comments, there are no blanks, if you feel there are then just ask me what I meant. EDIT: About Alliance, when did they become a well know team world-wide and how? If you look up some videos about that, what do you find? It is not me, it is not my idea. It is what they are known for. Some may differ, I don't care. I don't have anything against the guys. I even think S4 is better mid than Dendi, the guy who got me back to watch dota, you get it? I am not that petty, please don't underestimate me.EDIT2: Alliance didn't even exist 6 months before winning TI, the players existed, the team didn't. Four months after getting together they win TI, there is not much more to dig about what made them famous.
I'm not talking about you being petty but how you are saying it's like you are asking to remove what makes dota a really good game
What? alliance was NTH before that was the team with EE before he was replaced with EGM. They started at september 2012 and the international 3 was august 2013 ? they have been playing together for almost a year before the TI3 came and they are not famous solely because of ratdota . Everybody just suddenly forgot that they are actually better than the other teams and are winning even before it's gets to lategame just because navi made a dumb mistake grand finals TI3 and they won through split push which they shouldn't have.
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On June 25 2015 00:14 goody153 wrote:s4 interview http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331731245168/the-secret-to-success-at-esl-one-frankfurt'Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 23:49 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 23:25 goody153 wrote:On June 24 2015 17:45 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 17:10 goody153 wrote:Racket please all teams "good" teams know how to rat nowadays. I can't believe you don't actually know what Ratdota is about and you've been posting here for a long time. You clearly think that "ratting" is exclusively "splitpushing". Which is a completely wrong . You do realize that rat playstyle is just "avoiding fights until the time is right to fight" ? Which is called "smart fighting". Why are you even playing/watching dota if you don't like the concept of it? It's like the very core of the game right now . One of the things that separates dota from others is that it's not all about "fighting" there is this thing called resource allocation and map movement which involves in "farming". If you wanted to all fighting then why don't you play wc3 hero arenas or something similar. Looks like you just wanted mindless brawl which is not dota. You'll find more luck on other games with your thought process you will end up disappointed cause that's not what dota is about. You'll find endless poking of each other without killing or avoiding fights a lot for good positioning or the spells are in CD or until items are up in dota alot. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", It's like goliaths/hydras/scourge don't exist. Goody, first of all I am not sure every team knows how to rat nowadays, for instance I still have to see NaVi do it, every time they tried it they only humiliated themselves. Also, I know what it is about, splitpush is just an example that shows it the easiest: when you wanna fight me I go back meanwhile one of my pals gets some other lane. It is a simplification. I already said it before, Secret has shown themselves as particularly focused in split pushing this last tournament (as opposed to two months ago), whether they were losing or winning, attacking or defending, 75% of those situations had RTZ or s4 split pushing (only if they had the items to do so), even while team fights 4v5 were taking place. I can only commend them for achieving such a feat even if I don't like the style (which is completely personal and I have no interest arguing whether it is respectable, I am not here to fight over that). I watch dota because I like CIS dota style. Dota was not always about rat (smart fighting), if it were we would have no other playstyles other than that. We had a lot of successful playstyles through these last four or five years. I don't think CIS doto is mindless brawl either (not saying that you implied that, just trying to make a connection between the messy fights I like to see, were I find the most joy seeing how they outplay each other, and your description of what dota ain't about). For instance, why is Suma1l praised so much? Because of his Storm, which he outplays many people with, even if he is not better farmed or the fight could not be called a smart fight given his position or being outnumbered or whatever.Lastly, man come on... of course, we also had scouts, but when you play with friends just to enjoy the while, there is no need for 200/200 carriers.... Like when you play football with friends and there is always that dumb one who goes at the ball like your feet is not behind it, and then he says "you should have moved then, it is not my fault"... No, if you wanna win so bad go play a tournament. You know what was our way to deal with carrier makers? We rushed 4v1 him at the beginning and then he was out of the whole game. What was the counter strategy of our opponents? Given that we played lan games, they all used the same nickname, so you could never know for sure who was who. rofl What kind of starcraft are you playing ? that feels like more like the casual starcraft not the Iccup starcraft brutal starcraft cause you guys are scared of carriers .. and you lost to a 4v1 ? lol Cause 200/200 carrier doesn't exactly win against a well controlled goliath force. Unless you are a dumb terran and you just a-click and allow the carriers to mop you. Hell even zergs and protoss have solutions to that while they build up carrier and even if they managed to you should be able to build up a force that will kill that in a war of attrition. That's not correct about suma1l .. check his games whenever he plays as storm "it's playable" and not a "nightmare" to play . Cause he picks targets that are actually killable. Even your CIS doto takes advantage of where they have the strong position and hero advantage. That's not mindless brawl. Are you are asking is that people should still fight even when they are in a questionable position ? Just because you think it's MANLY ? that's just dumb. I already told you what you are asking is not dota but a HERO ARENA type of game where you just FIGHT ALL THE TIME. And you are not even correct about rtz/s4 mostly ratting cause secret wins through facerush skirmishes and 5 man pushes ,.Yes that's how CIS teams usually win. And that's how secret does it most of the time. You are asking to remove the strategic diversity of what actually makes DOTA GOOD. You are trying to make dota some kind of dumb non-stop fighting hero arena. like i said if you want something like that that's not dota that's exactly hero arena. Seems like farming and whatever doesn't really matter to you with how you are saying this i doubt you even understand whenever some map rotation happens from some team and why they stay on that area if you all just wanted is to brawl. You also probably just made a stereotype of ratdota since navi lost to alliance ti3 and it stuck on you that alliance can only do ratdota. And you don't even seem to realize that alliance won most of their matches of TI3 by outplaying them and not because of ratdota. Goody, you are getting me wrong. All wrong. First, what do you understand when I said starcraft between friends? On LAN, not 4v1 but 4v4, where we punished the one that went carriers in a 4v4 while we all were doing dumb stuff to each other instead of playing following a specific build order. It was for fun and no one raged because of that. Second, why do you take everything I mention to an extreme? We have seen Suma1l outplay two or even three people in situations were most players would just try to run. I don't mean it like he goes blindfolded against everything and everyone... please. I am not an extremist, I don't ask to fight lost battles, my point was a generalization of CIS doto where a lot of small skirmishes get extended to a point where many other "regions" (if you wanna call it that) would just pull back a few deaths before. Where did I say s4 and RTZ mostly rat? I said Secret make an extremely good use of splitpushing even in situations where other teams would rather "5v5 or splitpush plus the other four go back" instead of "4v5 plus splitpush", and I mention s4 and RTZ because I have seen Zai only splitpush on Broodmother (maybe I missed some other). I never asked to remove anything, I answered to Gear 3rd, so read his comment, then try to get into my mind while reading mine and maybe you will understand me. Also, I didn't make any stereotype, I am not the only one calling this playstyle rat. I never had the intention to whine about this if you took it that way, I merely answered a comment trying to give an explanation that may be wrong. Please stop filling blanks in my comments, there are no blanks, if you feel there are then just ask me what I meant. EDIT: About Alliance, when did they become a well know team world-wide and how? If you look up some videos about that, what do you find? It is not me, it is not my idea. It is what they are known for. Some may differ, I don't care. I don't have anything against the guys. I even think S4 is better mid than Dendi, the guy who got me back to watch dota, you get it? I am not that petty, please don't underestimate me.EDIT2: Alliance didn't even exist 6 months before winning TI, the players existed, the team didn't. Four months after getting together they win TI, there is not much more to dig about what made them famous. I'm not talking about you being petty but how you are saying it's like you are asking to remove what makes dota a really good game (...).
What? Where does he say that? He just seems to dislike the playstyle. That's all. You don't have to assume more to it.
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On June 25 2015 00:17 Jelissei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 00:14 goody153 wrote:s4 interview http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331731245168/the-secret-to-success-at-esl-one-frankfurt'On June 24 2015 23:49 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 23:25 goody153 wrote:On June 24 2015 17:45 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 17:10 goody153 wrote:Racket please all teams "good" teams know how to rat nowadays. I can't believe you don't actually know what Ratdota is about and you've been posting here for a long time. You clearly think that "ratting" is exclusively "splitpushing". Which is a completely wrong . You do realize that rat playstyle is just "avoiding fights until the time is right to fight" ? Which is called "smart fighting". Why are you even playing/watching dota if you don't like the concept of it? It's like the very core of the game right now . One of the things that separates dota from others is that it's not all about "fighting" there is this thing called resource allocation and map movement which involves in "farming". If you wanted to all fighting then why don't you play wc3 hero arenas or something similar. Looks like you just wanted mindless brawl which is not dota. You'll find more luck on other games with your thought process you will end up disappointed cause that's not what dota is about. You'll find endless poking of each other without killing or avoiding fights a lot for good positioning or the spells are in CD or until items are up in dota alot. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", It's like goliaths/hydras/scourge don't exist. Goody, first of all I am not sure every team knows how to rat nowadays, for instance I still have to see NaVi do it, every time they tried it they only humiliated themselves. Also, I know what it is about, splitpush is just an example that shows it the easiest: when you wanna fight me I go back meanwhile one of my pals gets some other lane. It is a simplification. I already said it before, Secret has shown themselves as particularly focused in split pushing this last tournament (as opposed to two months ago), whether they were losing or winning, attacking or defending, 75% of those situations had RTZ or s4 split pushing (only if they had the items to do so), even while team fights 4v5 were taking place. I can only commend them for achieving such a feat even if I don't like the style (which is completely personal and I have no interest arguing whether it is respectable, I am not here to fight over that). I watch dota because I like CIS dota style. Dota was not always about rat (smart fighting), if it were we would have no other playstyles other than that. We had a lot of successful playstyles through these last four or five years. I don't think CIS doto is mindless brawl either (not saying that you implied that, just trying to make a connection between the messy fights I like to see, were I find the most joy seeing how they outplay each other, and your description of what dota ain't about). For instance, why is Suma1l praised so much? Because of his Storm, which he outplays many people with, even if he is not better farmed or the fight could not be called a smart fight given his position or being outnumbered or whatever.Lastly, man come on... of course, we also had scouts, but when you play with friends just to enjoy the while, there is no need for 200/200 carriers.... Like when you play football with friends and there is always that dumb one who goes at the ball like your feet is not behind it, and then he says "you should have moved then, it is not my fault"... No, if you wanna win so bad go play a tournament. You know what was our way to deal with carrier makers? We rushed 4v1 him at the beginning and then he was out of the whole game. What was the counter strategy of our opponents? Given that we played lan games, they all used the same nickname, so you could never know for sure who was who. rofl What kind of starcraft are you playing ? that feels like more like the casual starcraft not the Iccup starcraft brutal starcraft cause you guys are scared of carriers .. and you lost to a 4v1 ? lol Cause 200/200 carrier doesn't exactly win against a well controlled goliath force. Unless you are a dumb terran and you just a-click and allow the carriers to mop you. Hell even zergs and protoss have solutions to that while they build up carrier and even if they managed to you should be able to build up a force that will kill that in a war of attrition. That's not correct about suma1l .. check his games whenever he plays as storm "it's playable" and not a "nightmare" to play . Cause he picks targets that are actually killable. Even your CIS doto takes advantage of where they have the strong position and hero advantage. That's not mindless brawl. Are you are asking is that people should still fight even when they are in a questionable position ? Just because you think it's MANLY ? that's just dumb. I already told you what you are asking is not dota but a HERO ARENA type of game where you just FIGHT ALL THE TIME. And you are not even correct about rtz/s4 mostly ratting cause secret wins through facerush skirmishes and 5 man pushes ,.Yes that's how CIS teams usually win. And that's how secret does it most of the time. You are asking to remove the strategic diversity of what actually makes DOTA GOOD. You are trying to make dota some kind of dumb non-stop fighting hero arena. like i said if you want something like that that's not dota that's exactly hero arena. Seems like farming and whatever doesn't really matter to you with how you are saying this i doubt you even understand whenever some map rotation happens from some team and why they stay on that area if you all just wanted is to brawl. You also probably just made a stereotype of ratdota since navi lost to alliance ti3 and it stuck on you that alliance can only do ratdota. And you don't even seem to realize that alliance won most of their matches of TI3 by outplaying them and not because of ratdota. Goody, you are getting me wrong. All wrong. First, what do you understand when I said starcraft between friends? On LAN, not 4v1 but 4v4, where we punished the one that went carriers in a 4v4 while we all were doing dumb stuff to each other instead of playing following a specific build order. It was for fun and no one raged because of that. Second, why do you take everything I mention to an extreme? We have seen Suma1l outplay two or even three people in situations were most players would just try to run. I don't mean it like he goes blindfolded against everything and everyone... please. I am not an extremist, I don't ask to fight lost battles, my point was a generalization of CIS doto where a lot of small skirmishes get extended to a point where many other "regions" (if you wanna call it that) would just pull back a few deaths before. Where did I say s4 and RTZ mostly rat? I said Secret make an extremely good use of splitpushing even in situations where other teams would rather "5v5 or splitpush plus the other four go back" instead of "4v5 plus splitpush", and I mention s4 and RTZ because I have seen Zai only splitpush on Broodmother (maybe I missed some other). I never asked to remove anything, I answered to Gear 3rd, so read his comment, then try to get into my mind while reading mine and maybe you will understand me. Also, I didn't make any stereotype, I am not the only one calling this playstyle rat. I never had the intention to whine about this if you took it that way, I merely answered a comment trying to give an explanation that may be wrong. Please stop filling blanks in my comments, there are no blanks, if you feel there are then just ask me what I meant. EDIT: About Alliance, when did they become a well know team world-wide and how? If you look up some videos about that, what do you find? It is not me, it is not my idea. It is what they are known for. Some may differ, I don't care. I don't have anything against the guys. I even think S4 is better mid than Dendi, the guy who got me back to watch dota, you get it? I am not that petty, please don't underestimate me.EDIT2: Alliance didn't even exist 6 months before winning TI, the players existed, the team didn't. Four months after getting together they win TI, there is not much more to dig about what made them famous. I'm not talking about you being petty but how you are saying it's like you are asking to remove what makes dota a really good game (...). What? Where does he say that? He just seems to dislike the playstyle. That's all. You don't have to assume more to it.
Yeah whatever but i hope i don't hear dumb shit like "RATDOTA SHOULD NEVER EXIST YOUR NOT EVEN GOOD IF YOU WIN WITH THAT" .
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On June 25 2015 00:28 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 00:17 Jelissei wrote:On June 25 2015 00:14 goody153 wrote:s4 interview http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331731245168/the-secret-to-success-at-esl-one-frankfurt'On June 24 2015 23:49 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 23:25 goody153 wrote:On June 24 2015 17:45 Racket wrote:On June 24 2015 17:10 goody153 wrote:Racket please all teams "good" teams know how to rat nowadays. I can't believe you don't actually know what Ratdota is about and you've been posting here for a long time. You clearly think that "ratting" is exclusively "splitpushing". Which is a completely wrong . You do realize that rat playstyle is just "avoiding fights until the time is right to fight" ? Which is called "smart fighting". Why are you even playing/watching dota if you don't like the concept of it? It's like the very core of the game right now . One of the things that separates dota from others is that it's not all about "fighting" there is this thing called resource allocation and map movement which involves in "farming". If you wanted to all fighting then why don't you play wc3 hero arenas or something similar. Looks like you just wanted mindless brawl which is not dota. You'll find more luck on other games with your thought process you will end up disappointed cause that's not what dota is about. You'll find endless poking of each other without killing or avoiding fights a lot for good positioning or the spells are in CD or until items are up in dota alot. For those who played SC1, when I used to play with friends there was only one rule: "No carriers", It's like goliaths/hydras/scourge don't exist. Goody, first of all I am not sure every team knows how to rat nowadays, for instance I still have to see NaVi do it, every time they tried it they only humiliated themselves. Also, I know what it is about, splitpush is just an example that shows it the easiest: when you wanna fight me I go back meanwhile one of my pals gets some other lane. It is a simplification. I already said it before, Secret has shown themselves as particularly focused in split pushing this last tournament (as opposed to two months ago), whether they were losing or winning, attacking or defending, 75% of those situations had RTZ or s4 split pushing (only if they had the items to do so), even while team fights 4v5 were taking place. I can only commend them for achieving such a feat even if I don't like the style (which is completely personal and I have no interest arguing whether it is respectable, I am not here to fight over that). I watch dota because I like CIS dota style. Dota was not always about rat (smart fighting), if it were we would have no other playstyles other than that. We had a lot of successful playstyles through these last four or five years. I don't think CIS doto is mindless brawl either (not saying that you implied that, just trying to make a connection between the messy fights I like to see, were I find the most joy seeing how they outplay each other, and your description of what dota ain't about). For instance, why is Suma1l praised so much? Because of his Storm, which he outplays many people with, even if he is not better farmed or the fight could not be called a smart fight given his position or being outnumbered or whatever.Lastly, man come on... of course, we also had scouts, but when you play with friends just to enjoy the while, there is no need for 200/200 carriers.... Like when you play football with friends and there is always that dumb one who goes at the ball like your feet is not behind it, and then he says "you should have moved then, it is not my fault"... No, if you wanna win so bad go play a tournament. You know what was our way to deal with carrier makers? We rushed 4v1 him at the beginning and then he was out of the whole game. What was the counter strategy of our opponents? Given that we played lan games, they all used the same nickname, so you could never know for sure who was who. rofl What kind of starcraft are you playing ? that feels like more like the casual starcraft not the Iccup starcraft brutal starcraft cause you guys are scared of carriers .. and you lost to a 4v1 ? lol Cause 200/200 carrier doesn't exactly win against a well controlled goliath force. Unless you are a dumb terran and you just a-click and allow the carriers to mop you. Hell even zergs and protoss have solutions to that while they build up carrier and even if they managed to you should be able to build up a force that will kill that in a war of attrition. That's not correct about suma1l .. check his games whenever he plays as storm "it's playable" and not a "nightmare" to play . Cause he picks targets that are actually killable. Even your CIS doto takes advantage of where they have the strong position and hero advantage. That's not mindless brawl. Are you are asking is that people should still fight even when they are in a questionable position ? Just because you think it's MANLY ? that's just dumb. I already told you what you are asking is not dota but a HERO ARENA type of game where you just FIGHT ALL THE TIME. And you are not even correct about rtz/s4 mostly ratting cause secret wins through facerush skirmishes and 5 man pushes ,.Yes that's how CIS teams usually win. And that's how secret does it most of the time. You are asking to remove the strategic diversity of what actually makes DOTA GOOD. You are trying to make dota some kind of dumb non-stop fighting hero arena. like i said if you want something like that that's not dota that's exactly hero arena. Seems like farming and whatever doesn't really matter to you with how you are saying this i doubt you even understand whenever some map rotation happens from some team and why they stay on that area if you all just wanted is to brawl. You also probably just made a stereotype of ratdota since navi lost to alliance ti3 and it stuck on you that alliance can only do ratdota. And you don't even seem to realize that alliance won most of their matches of TI3 by outplaying them and not because of ratdota. Goody, you are getting me wrong. All wrong. First, what do you understand when I said starcraft between friends? On LAN, not 4v1 but 4v4, where we punished the one that went carriers in a 4v4 while we all were doing dumb stuff to each other instead of playing following a specific build order. It was for fun and no one raged because of that. Second, why do you take everything I mention to an extreme? We have seen Suma1l outplay two or even three people in situations were most players would just try to run. I don't mean it like he goes blindfolded against everything and everyone... please. I am not an extremist, I don't ask to fight lost battles, my point was a generalization of CIS doto where a lot of small skirmishes get extended to a point where many other "regions" (if you wanna call it that) would just pull back a few deaths before. Where did I say s4 and RTZ mostly rat? I said Secret make an extremely good use of splitpushing even in situations where other teams would rather "5v5 or splitpush plus the other four go back" instead of "4v5 plus splitpush", and I mention s4 and RTZ because I have seen Zai only splitpush on Broodmother (maybe I missed some other). I never asked to remove anything, I answered to Gear 3rd, so read his comment, then try to get into my mind while reading mine and maybe you will understand me. Also, I didn't make any stereotype, I am not the only one calling this playstyle rat. I never had the intention to whine about this if you took it that way, I merely answered a comment trying to give an explanation that may be wrong. Please stop filling blanks in my comments, there are no blanks, if you feel there are then just ask me what I meant. EDIT: About Alliance, when did they become a well know team world-wide and how? If you look up some videos about that, what do you find? It is not me, it is not my idea. It is what they are known for. Some may differ, I don't care. I don't have anything against the guys. I even think S4 is better mid than Dendi, the guy who got me back to watch dota, you get it? I am not that petty, please don't underestimate me.EDIT2: Alliance didn't even exist 6 months before winning TI, the players existed, the team didn't. Four months after getting together they win TI, there is not much more to dig about what made them famous. I'm not talking about you being petty but how you are saying it's like you are asking to remove what makes dota a really good game (...). What? Where does he say that? He just seems to dislike the playstyle. That's all. You don't have to assume more to it. Yeah whatever but i hope i don't hear dumb shit like "RATDOTA SHOULD NEVER EXIST YOUR NOT EVEN GOOD IF YOU WIN WITH THAT" .
It was funny reading your answers till now, I only get there taking my sentences to the extreme, at least in my head there is no other way. But I get where you come from, but no, I am not like that.
Regarding Alliance, yeah ok, one year until TI3, 4 months before EGM joined. Either way, I am not looking down on them nor saying they don't deserve what they have won.
I am saying they became really well know a few months before TI3, (because they history doesn't go much more back than that) and if you ask randomly, the majority will answer what I already posted. Not because I say it, but instead because their history can be comprised that easily, they won a TI finals with rat, how can you wipe that off a year's history? A year, where the most important event was that TI and nothing else.
That doesn't change the facts, they were not pure ratters and their playstyle wasn't rat dependent. But if you take into account recent events, the returning of AB to Alliance was taken just as we all read in this website, as the return of the ratstyle, wasn't it?
Edit: You know what is funny?
The other day one of the guys that flamed me on the ESL thread said that I only talk shit and don't contribute at all, that my posts are always negative. In fact, every time I post something positive or constructive, people ignore it. Why? Easy, people like drama, if it is not drama then it is not worth answering even if for an agreement.
It is really hard to comment on any other team if you don't agree or if you don't praise them. It is like there is nothing constructive to say or no analysis can be made, in this case about Secret.
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attack of the text blocks.
secret just does whatever is needed to win. alliance was known for ratting because bulldog furion was just imba, its not their fault other teams didnt ban furion.
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
Stairway to heaven on rtz's stream. What's happening?
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On June 25 2015 05:53 HighTimeDotA wrote:
attack of the text blocks.
secret just does whatever is needed to win. alliance was known for ratting because bulldog furion was just imba, its not their fault other teams didnt ban furion.
oddly enough they only really ratted teams to death in the way they're known for like 4 times during all of TI3. One of them just happened to be in the grand finals in the 5th game xD
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On June 25 2015 06:12 Nerfed wrote:
Stairway to heaven on rtz's stream. What's happening?
![[image loading]](https://dotabanters.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/puppey_jolie.jpg)
I bet that Puppey injected some good music taste in him.
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On June 25 2015 10:04 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:12 Nerfed wrote:
Stairway to heaven on rtz's stream. What's happening? I bet that Puppey injected some good music taste in him.
A) There's no way RTZ is influenced by Puppey's music taste
B) There's no way Puppey likes that song
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On June 25 2015 10:04 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:12 Nerfed wrote:
Stairway to heaven on rtz's stream. What's happening? I bet that Puppey injected some good music taste in him.
Lol! Puppey, hahaha
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how times change. crazy that they all once played on a team (though korok was a standin)
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/images/DotA/Nirvana.Int.jpg)
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
i still cant get over how puppey used to look like that
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28091 Posts
Seeing that pic makes me realize why demon/korok have started hitting the gym so much. They were actually really in need of it, lol. Never realized Demon used to be like 90 lbs.
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Who's the guy in dark blue shirt and green pants?
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On June 25 2015 20:55 Elurie wrote:
Who's the guy in dark blue shirt and green pants?
I think its Azen and this is a photo taken from from Nirvana.int days. He played for sometime with PGG afterwards during the beginning of Dota 2, but was not very noteworthy.
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On June 25 2015 18:14 ahswtini wrote:
i still cant get over how puppey used to look like that
And the scarf thing too, what the hell was the deal with that? Haha.
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EPT
