EPTTeam Secret Discussion - Page 115
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On November 19 2015 08:15 BobMcJohnson wrote: You probably can add xiao8 to that list Maybe, personally I'm most impressed with Puppy, just because I feel he has the weakest players to work with. With the exception of EE I was never that impressed with any of the other players on this team. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
On November 19 2015 10:26 ddayzy wrote: Maybe, personally I'm most impressed with Puppy, just because I feel he has the weakest players to work with. With the exception of EE I was never that impressed with any of the other players on this team. pieliedie is insanely good | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
Best part about puppey is how he has evolved as a drafter and leader. The Chinese are still very stubborn with their drafts, often going for standard stuff, and very insistent on 5man objectives. Puppey embraced the split push/stalling/diediedie tactics that destroyed his navi team, being very willing to switch to this style if necessary. | ||
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Anamorph
236 Posts
On November 19 2015 09:48 Mensol wrote: Alliance were clearly at the bottom of EU before s4's return. they are top 3 in eu atm along with secret and og. (counting VP as CIS) 1. Secret 2. Liquid 3. Vega 4. OG ... Top 3.. well.. not rly bro. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On November 19 2015 16:00 Anamorph wrote: 1. Secret 2. Liquid 3. Vega 4. OG ... Top 3.. well.. not rly bro. Wouldn't Vega be CIS? | ||
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shouldbeworking
946 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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goody153
44237 Posts
CIS counts as Western part of dota (cause they play eu server and scrim with eu teams and play eu competitions) also you dudes forgot about VP , alliance is like behind VP too | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On November 19 2015 18:12 goody153 wrote: CIS counts as Western part of dota (cause they play eu server and scrim with eu teams and play eu competitions) also you dudes forgot about VP , alliance is like behind VP too CIS has been a separate scene for a long time and counted as such, but they've stopped being so isolated and there's less top teams from the region now | ||
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goody153
44237 Posts
On November 19 2015 18:16 LemOn wrote: CIS has been a separate scene for a long time and counted as such, but they've stopped being so isolated and there's less top teams from the region now Idk i've always seen them as part of EU, maybe if we segregate the western scene then surely it'd be split up into 3 parts which are NA, EU and CIS (sorry south america you are not relevant enough lol). If they only play against themselves then i'd say they separate they they've always played against other EU teams and competed on EU tournaments. There's no like exclusive CIS competition, they've always been practicing and competiting against EU teams. Unlike NA dota where there's a competition within themselves and they just send the best non-eg team into international competitions. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
On November 19 2015 16:00 Anamorph wrote: 1. Secret 2. Liquid 3. Vega 4. OG ... Top 3.. well.. not rly bro. Yeah, even if you discount the CiS teams Alliance are not top 3 (secret, og,liquid). And if you're reducing the pool of teams that way, top4 (arguably) becomes pretty unimpressive. It's like celebrating that Alliance is the best Swedish team. The more glaring problem isn't some ranking though, it's the (skill/power) gap between them and the top which is very significant. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
Personal opinion of course but I disagree. What specificly is he insanely good at? To me his mechanical skills seems very mediocre, but then again I don't think Dota is a very mechanically demanding game. The main thing you needed in dota is someone with superb decision making and tactical skill herding the cats. I think that can make up for a lot of deficency in your other players and make them look good. I'm very curious to see how Secret would have done with another support with equaly good mechanical skills but without the same leader capabilitys. My guess is very bad. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On November 20 2015 00:25 ddayzy wrote: Personal opinion of course but I disagree. What specificly is he insanely good at? To me his mechanical skills seems very mediocre, but then again I don't think Dota is a very mechanically demanding game. The main thing you needed in dota is someone with superb decision making and tactical skill herding the cats. I think that can make up for a lot of deficency in your other players and make them look good. I'm very curious to see how Secret would have done with another support with equaly good mechanical skills but without the same leader capabilitys. My guess is very bad. He sets the pace of the game with brilliant decision making in laning phase making plays out of no play. He diverts attention while creating space for his team in midgame(classic PLD pushes alone in one side wihle Envy pushes in the opposite side of map). He has a ban worthy BH that is close to undefeated or undefeated(I'm not sure). His teamfight positioning and ability to make his hero count is astounding, casting a lot of spells before being caught. While he dies a lot he is the player that is less prone to completely useless feeding in the team(Puppey and EE might be the ones guilty of this the most). Seriously, PLD might be Secret's MVP from a pure gameplay PoV(discounting draft and in-game leading). I think we probably see DotA in radically different ways or you're not really paying attention to Secret games. PS: He has the best support Tiny in the world. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
He still does things he is most known for when playing in a split pushy game, whether it is taking the most dangerous farm on the map or positioning himself to cutoff smokes, and gathers information for the rest of his team. I think something that stands out in his play is also his understanding of vision. It is most notable of course on his BH, when you see him constantly be in the right place to gather the necessary information so his team can either set up a kill or prevent themselves from getting ganked. But also on other sorts of supports he positions himself in places where vision is required, or he can for example run alone forward when the team is pushing a tower just to make sure his team isn't getting ambushed. Sometimes he dies while doing it, but him dying is far better than the team getting initiated on and having to fight when they don't want to. From listening to some EE&PLD casts I also think he sees the game very similarly to how EE sees it. Probably this is due to them sort of growing as players together on the same team. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On November 20 2015 00:36 Alpino wrote: He sets the pace of the game with brilliant decision making in laning phase making plays out of no play. He diverts attention while creating space for his team in midgame(classic PLD pushes alone in one side wihle Envy pushes in the opposite side of map). He has a ban worthy BH that is close to undefeated or undefeated(I'm not sure). His teamfight positioning and ability to make his hero count is astounding, casting a lot of spells before being caught. While he dies a lot he is the player that is less prone to completely useless feeding in the team(Puppey and EE might be the ones guilty of this the most). Seriously, PLD might be Secret's MVP from a pure gameplay PoV(discounting draft and in-game leading). I think we probably see DotA in radically different ways or you're not really paying attention to Secret games. PS: He has the best support Tiny in the world. Barely any of the things you are describing comes down to personal skills. It is all decision making and tactics which is what the team captain is doing and influencing. He played mostly the same role in C9 and yet there a fair few of his decision just seemed dumb to the point where he got kicked. He gets on a team with Puppey and all of a sudden the right decisions gets made. I think the connection is a obvious one and has little to do with his skills. I also think you are over estimating his impact, which I blame the casters who allways strive to see the "purpose" behind his deaths even when there are non, sometimes there are but not as many times as the caster seem to think. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
That PLD c9 was also a top5 in the team at the point he was removed with Aui. He did a lot of good things even in that team. It's impossible to exactly quantify Puppey's influence and I'm sure he helps everyone in some way to look better because the team is coordinated in crucial times. But PLD and EE for example show strength in similar things they did while in c9 when they were doing well, I don't think one can just credit Puppey for that. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On November 20 2015 01:00 spudde123 wrote: As far as I know he didn't get kicked for his play. I think EE said at some point that he was a poor teammate at that point in time. And after c9 disbanded EE went to PLD to get him back on the team. That should be evidence enough of whether he respects his skill. That PLD c9 was also a top5 in the team at the point he was removed with Aui. He did a lot of good things even in that team. "The players want to win," Etienne told the Daily Dot, "and the remaining players on my roster made a decision to go with the team that gave them the best chances." It was about skills. Having limited options and wanting to play with someone he knows would have as big a impact as his percived skills. That said I also don't think the individual skill ceiling is very high in dota. The exception is that you need a very good understanding of the game, excellent decision making and tactical capabilites. A good captain negates the need for that skill in the other players lowering the skill ceiling for the other players significantly. Which goes back to my original point that any team with such a amazing captain will play beyond the capabilites of the other players if they are just good at taking orders. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
On November 19 2015 16:00 Anamorph wrote: 1. Secret 2. Liquid 3. Vega 4. OG ... Top 3.. well.. not rly bro. Liquid isnt better than Alliance l o l. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
The issue I have with what you are saying is that there is no way a captain can decide every move in dota. A lot of what happens is down to the individual communication and decision making capabilities of different players. When EE has talked about PLD as player, for example his comments about PLD being the best player in the world around MLG in 2013, he credited specifically PLD's understanding of the game in different aspects. It is not a coincidence that he excels in very similar things as he did when he was in c9. Of course the team being coordinated at crucial times and having Puppey to help out with calls makes everyone look better. But the team is not full of mediocre players. Without Puppey these players have the capability to be in one of the very best teams in Europe, as c9 has shown. Around this time last year they were even rather close to the best teams in the world. Puppey may be the difference that puts them from that kind of a team to a team that competes for the title in every tournament. | ||
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