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On December 12 2014 13:29 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 11:54 DucK- wrote:
Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support. I'm pretty sure you're underestimating how important loda is to Alliance. RTZ also gets no credit these days either when he's probably the best carry in the west lol. I also don't think PJ is better than bulba either...PJ's never gotten as far as Bulba at TI, like not even close to him lol and they've both played support and cores
Alliance's success then was all about s4, bulldog and their strategy. If there was anyone you could replace, it was Loda.
I think that Loda provides stability as a carry during alliance peak. You could trust him to do what's needed, give him the resources, and he will perform. Nothing flashy or yolo like xboct, just very stable consistent carrying expected of a carry player. He can last hit well, itemise correctly often, can trilane, seldom feed stupidly, knows when to join fights etc. Standard carry play.
The carry role in a sense is the easiest to replicate. After all the carry is usually dependent on his team for creating the space. If you have a good +4, it is very easy for a carry to shine. What separates the some carries from the others are their ability to safely find farm (envy rtz), their hero pool (black sylar fear), or maybe their laning ability (rtz). Loda has nothing exceptional that makes him stand out, except maybe that he is one of the most consistent and stable carry player around.
You can't really compare pj and bulba because they play different roles. Both suck on support. One plays carry, and the other plays offlane. But when you compare them with their peers, bulba is a far cry from other offlaner. He can't make plays as well, doesn't play farming offlaner, doesn't lane as well etc. There's a noticeable difference. I don't think I can say the same for pj if he is given the same space and resources to carry as with the top teams.
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On December 12 2014 19:25 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 11:54 DucK- wrote:
Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support. Pajkatt and Qojqva are both notably worse than Loda and Arteezy. Replace them and their teams absolutely would get worse. Besides, it's not like Alliance set a high bar right now anyway. A team like VP is considerably closer to Tinker's individual skill than EG, and they're actually doing worse in results. Hell, Na'vi is far better individually and yet Tinker are doing better than them. So, again, it just doesn't seem to me like there's any reason to expect more from Tinker than what they've achieved, which is perfectly respectable - somewhere around the 4th best Western team. That's a higher rank than most of the players have achieved before, and only Sing could claim to have been of a higher rank in the previous year. Basically, they're decent players on a decent team. They are not "performing so badly".
I do agree that pj and qojqva are inferior versions of Loda and rtz, and that the teams would be worse off. But i disagree that the teams would say crumble because of good the +4 functioned.
I do also agree that tinker do not deserve anything more than they have. My opinion however is that they should at least perform better in game, rather than consistently playing like a clueless team. Results wise it is acceptable. Performance wise it leaves more to be desired.
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On December 12 2014 19:55 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 19:25 FuzzyJAM wrote:On December 12 2014 11:54 DucK- wrote:
Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support. Pajkatt and Qojqva are both notably worse than Loda and Arteezy. Replace them and their teams absolutely would get worse. Besides, it's not like Alliance set a high bar right now anyway. A team like VP is considerably closer to Tinker's individual skill than EG, and they're actually doing worse in results. Hell, Na'vi is far better individually and yet Tinker are doing better than them. So, again, it just doesn't seem to me like there's any reason to expect more from Tinker than what they've achieved, which is perfectly respectable - somewhere around the 4th best Western team. That's a higher rank than most of the players have achieved before, and only Sing could claim to have been of a higher rank in the previous year. Basically, they're decent players on a decent team. They are not "performing so badly". I do agree that pj and qojqva are inferior versions of Loda and rtz, and that the teams would be worse off. But i disagree that the teams would say crumble because of good the +4 functioned. I do also agree that tinker do not deserve anything more than they have. My opinion however is that they should at least perform better in game, rather than consistently playing like a clueless team. Results wise it is acceptable. Performance wise it leaves more to be desired.
this. When they play well, they utterly destroy opposition. It just doesnt seem to click often enough.
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Egm playing with Alliance right now. Egm and pajkatt to leave tt?
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On December 12 2014 22:20 GiveMeYourtTots wrote:
Egm playing with Alliance right now. Egm and pajkatt to leave tt?
... Alliance playing with 4 standins, doesnt say anything. Especially as EGM left Alliance it seems very doubtful that he would rejoin them 2 months later... why leave in the first place?
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On December 12 2014 19:45 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 13:29 bagels21 wrote:On December 12 2014 11:54 DucK- wrote:
Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support. I'm pretty sure you're underestimating how important loda is to Alliance. RTZ also gets no credit these days either when he's probably the best carry in the west lol. I also don't think PJ is better than bulba either...PJ's never gotten as far as Bulba at TI, like not even close to him lol and they've both played support and cores Alliance's success then was all about s4, bulldog and their strategy. If there was anyone you could replace, it was Loda. I think that Loda provides stability as a carry during alliance peak. You could trust him to do what's needed, give him the resources, and he will perform. Nothing flashy or yolo like xboct, just very stable consistent carrying expected of a carry player. He can last hit well, itemise correctly often, can trilane, seldom feed stupidly, knows when to join fights etc. Standard carry play. The carry role in a sense is the easiest to replicate. After all the carry is usually dependent on his team for creating the space. If you have a good +4, it is very easy for a carry to shine. What separates the some carries from the others are their ability to safely find farm (envy rtz), their hero pool (black sylar fear), or maybe their laning ability (rtz). Loda has nothing exceptional that makes him stand out, except maybe that he is one of the most consistent and stable carry player around. You can't really compare pj and bulba because they play different roles. Both suck on support. One plays carry, and the other plays offlane. But when you compare them with their peers, bulba is a far cry from other offlaner. He can't make plays as well, doesn't play farming offlaner, doesn't lane as well etc. There's a noticeable difference. I don't think I can say the same for pj if he is given the same space and resources to carry as with the top teams.
Sure you can claim Loda's unexceptional, but he's got a huge hero pool and leads his teams. That in and of itself is huge and very difficult to do. (No Pos. 1 Captain's besides Zhou and EE). I used to be a huge Loda hater (i still don't like him) and Alliance's success was definitely on S4 and the supports, but he's easily a top 3-4 carry in the west right now and he's willing to draft and call the shots. Frankly no one on Tinker is significantly better than him (qojqva on TL looked better because TL sacrificed a lot of space and farm for other cores during the midgame.)
PJ played offlane for Tinker(when they were role swapping) and LGD.int(second iteration), you can absolutely compare them. Bulba also played midlane just like him. Bulba used to be the best offlaner in NA (have you forgotten TI3?) His quality and plays speak for himself (his ET and Clock are still better than anything I've seen from PJ). Yeah bulba looks like shit now because he plays 5 position support, but let's not forget he STILL got farther at TI4 playing position 5 support(with like 2 months of practice) and drafting for an arguably less talented team than PJ. Bulba rarely plays offlane now, only times are when they pick Sing Venge
Also we could compare PJ to his peers at position 1 or 2 and he's not exactly that much better either
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On December 12 2014 22:47 Hoenicker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 22:20 GiveMeYourtTots wrote:
Egm playing with Alliance right now. Egm and pajkatt to leave tt? ... Alliance playing with 4 standins, doesnt say anything. Especially as EGM left Alliance it seems very doubtful that he would rejoin them 2 months later... why leave in the first place?
Yea EGM joining Alliance again doesn't mean shit. I mean, It's not like TT has been performing like shit lately and Singsing talking about the roster changing, it's not like egm and loda played together at the summit 2 and got along really well. Also, they don't belong to the same organisation so switching teams would actully be really hard. Check egms twitter.
Nope, it doesn't say anything.
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Well I wonder who plays vs who in the Tinker vs Alliance match scheduled in 4h... lel.
btw I dont disagree about possible roster changes, just egm going back to alliance seems improbable to me. my 2 cents.
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On December 13 2014 00:42 Hoenicker wrote:
Well I wonder who plays vs who in the Tinker vs Alliance match scheduled in 4h... lel.
btw I dont disagree about possible roster changes, just egm going back to alliance seems improbable to me. my 2 cents.
Check his twitter dude.
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On December 13 2014 00:48 GiveMeYourtTots wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 00:42 Hoenicker wrote:
Well I wonder who plays vs who in the Tinker vs Alliance match scheduled in 4h... lel.
btw I dont disagree about possible roster changes, just egm going back to alliance seems improbable to me. my 2 cents. Check his twitter dude.
What is supposed to be on his twitter? I hope I'm not going blind....
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On December 13 2014 01:09 Blackspikes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 00:48 GiveMeYourtTots wrote:On December 13 2014 00:42 Hoenicker wrote:
Well I wonder who plays vs who in the Tinker vs Alliance match scheduled in 4h... lel.
btw I dont disagree about possible roster changes, just egm going back to alliance seems improbable to me. my 2 cents. Check his twitter dude. What is supposed to be on his twitter? I hope I'm not going blind....
His background or whatever is called is the same as the other Alliance players have. Maybe he be trolling because he isn't playing with Alliance in this thrid game.
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Today's game versus alliance will be quite fun
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On December 13 2014 01:12 GiveMeYourtTots wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 01:09 Blackspikes wrote:On December 13 2014 00:48 GiveMeYourtTots wrote:On December 13 2014 00:42 Hoenicker wrote:
Well I wonder who plays vs who in the Tinker vs Alliance match scheduled in 4h... lel.
btw I dont disagree about possible roster changes, just egm going back to alliance seems improbable to me. my 2 cents. Check his twitter dude. What is supposed to be on his twitter? I hope I'm not going blind.... His background or whatever is called is the same as the other Alliance players have. Maybe he be trolling because he isn't playing with Alliance in this thrid game.
lol he has never changed it, thats all. I thought you were talking about the "friend" post, but couldent read too much into that either. Loda signed a tinker t-shirt and egm wore his alliance shirt at the summit too.. I really think it doesnt say anything.
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Shall I change my background to a TL one, so that I'm the new star player and form a new roster for them? Background and stuff doesn't say anything, especially since EGM never changes his. And it's not likely at all that he will change back to Alliance since all he does is playing as a standin. He is good friends with them still and that's what he also stated. Does Loda become a TT player now that he alrdy played in the summit for them and even signed TT shirts? Likely not
Edit: Also for those wondering what is happening with TT vs Alliance later, pretty sure TT got replaced by LAJONS alrdy
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Ixmike is still using the Liquid background. It really doesn't mean shit, just that he's lazy with his Twitter account.
He was kicked from Alliance, so I sincerely doubt he'd rejoin them.
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TT withdrew from SL11 due to roster issues.
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It is time for this team to disband.
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On December 13 2014 08:13 drusalnik wrote:
It is time for this team to disband.
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no.
One or two intelligent roster changes and they will be a good team.
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EPT
