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On December 11 2014 22:10 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I don't know why people act as though they expect more from Tinker. Pajkatt, Qojqva and Bulba have already done more with Tinker than they did their prior teams. EGM is obviously seeing less success, but Alliance were already on the downhill anyway, while for Sing you can't expect the C9 success - which was always about unique style and hard work rather than individual skill - to transfer to new teams.
As far as I'm concerned, the team is exactly as good as should be expected.
That's pretty poor analysis... The problem of TT is not indivdual skill right now, it's team execution, game plan, drafting...
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On December 11 2014 22:29 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 22:10 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I don't know why people act as though they expect more from Tinker. Pajkatt, Qojqva and Bulba have already done more with Tinker than they did their prior teams. EGM is obviously seeing less success, but Alliance were already on the downhill anyway, while for Sing you can't expect the C9 success - which was always about unique style and hard work rather than individual skill - to transfer to new teams.
As far as I'm concerned, the team is exactly as good as should be expected. That's pretty poor analysis... The problem of TT is not indivdual skill right now, it's team execution, game plan, drafting...
I think that's been the problem with the teams they've all played on before besides maybe Mouz when Kuro was still there.
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Pajkatt is playing with Alliance right now, that pretty much confirms I guess
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On December 11 2014 22:45 kirsed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 22:29 Furikawari wrote:On December 11 2014 22:10 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I don't know why people act as though they expect more from Tinker. Pajkatt, Qojqva and Bulba have already done more with Tinker than they did their prior teams. EGM is obviously seeing less success, but Alliance were already on the downhill anyway, while for Sing you can't expect the C9 success - which was always about unique style and hard work rather than individual skill - to transfer to new teams.
As far as I'm concerned, the team is exactly as good as should be expected. That's pretty poor analysis... The problem of TT is not indivdual skill right now, it's team execution, game plan, drafting... I think that's been the problem with the teams they've all played on before besides maybe Mouz when Kuro was still there.
Well, there are not a lot people like Puppey and Goblack... but still there are some that do pretty well - EG, C9 Secret etc very rarely get outdrafted and outlaned, and thats a huge advantage in dota.
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On December 11 2014 23:54 cuckoo wrote:
Pajkatt is playing with Alliance right now, that pretty much confirms I guess
confirms what? Pajkatt knows those [A] guys for a long time I believe they are friends.. [A] are playing with 4 standins... doesn't say shit about TT imo.
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On December 11 2014 22:29 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 22:10 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I don't know why people act as though they expect more from Tinker. Pajkatt, Qojqva and Bulba have already done more with Tinker than they did their prior teams. EGM is obviously seeing less success, but Alliance were already on the downhill anyway, while for Sing you can't expect the C9 success - which was always about unique style and hard work rather than individual skill - to transfer to new teams.
As far as I'm concerned, the team is exactly as good as should be expected. That's pretty poor analysis... The problem of TT is not indivdual skill right now, it's team execution, game plan, drafting...
No, I'd say thats a pretty good analysis. People always seem to think that TT should do way better because of the "players skill level" but quite honestly these guys aren't that good individually. Bad leader or not, it's not like we are talking about 5 star players
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On December 12 2014 01:28 pellejohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 22:29 Furikawari wrote:On December 11 2014 22:10 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I don't know why people act as though they expect more from Tinker. Pajkatt, Qojqva and Bulba have already done more with Tinker than they did their prior teams. EGM is obviously seeing less success, but Alliance were already on the downhill anyway, while for Sing you can't expect the C9 success - which was always about unique style and hard work rather than individual skill - to transfer to new teams.
As far as I'm concerned, the team is exactly as good as should be expected. That's pretty poor analysis... The problem of TT is not indivdual skill right now, it's team execution, game plan, drafting... No, I'd say thats a pretty good analysis. People always seem to think that TT should do way better because of the "players skill level" but quite honestly these guys aren't that good individually. Bad leader or not, it's not like we are talking about 5 star players
I'd have to disagree with you there. I don't think anyone can deny that qojqva is a 5 star player, EGM in the farming support role is also that caliber. Singsing is flashy and can be very hit or miss (or in the case of mirana arrows, all hit), but hes also a top tier player. Bulba support and PJ offlane leave something to be desired though
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Every player on TT is capable of filling a role on a top-tier team. I don't know if the roster, holistically, even with better drafting and play-calling, could be that team. But there's no way to know without stronger leadership. They should have settled into roles by now and it should have started becoming more clear how they were going to play and that style improving through practice.
We don't know what they would like like if they were doing that, all we know is that it isn't happening because the team is rudderless.
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On December 12 2014 00:28 Hoenicker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2014 23:54 cuckoo wrote:
Pajkatt is playing with Alliance right now, that pretty much confirms I guess confirms what? Pajkatt knows those [A] guys for a long time I believe they are friends.. [A] are playing with 4 standins... doesn't say shit about TT imo.
Actually you're right. It's ESPORTAL, and TT isn't in the tournament, so I guess it's fine he was playing for them.
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Looks like they may have dropped out of Starladder XI as well. I think Lajons has replaced them.
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Cool, finally get some new Na'Vi matches and everyone is dropping out of the league they are playing.
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On December 12 2014 01:57 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 01:28 pellejohnson wrote:On December 11 2014 22:29 Furikawari wrote:On December 11 2014 22:10 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I don't know why people act as though they expect more from Tinker. Pajkatt, Qojqva and Bulba have already done more with Tinker than they did their prior teams. EGM is obviously seeing less success, but Alliance were already on the downhill anyway, while for Sing you can't expect the C9 success - which was always about unique style and hard work rather than individual skill - to transfer to new teams.
As far as I'm concerned, the team is exactly as good as should be expected. That's pretty poor analysis... The problem of TT is not indivdual skill right now, it's team execution, game plan, drafting... No, I'd say thats a pretty good analysis. People always seem to think that TT should do way better because of the "players skill level" but quite honestly these guys aren't that good individually. Bad leader or not, it's not like we are talking about 5 star players I'd have to disagree with you there. I don't think anyone can deny that qojqva is a 5 star player, EGM in the farming support role is also that caliber. Singsing is flashy and can be very hit or miss (or in the case of mirana arrows, all hit), but hes also a top tier player. Bulba support and PJ offlane leave something to be desired though
I really wish people would stop throwing around "5-star" and "top tier" so freely. It dilutes the terms until they're completely meaningless.
When there's only like 30 professional teams around at any given time, which means 30 players in every position, even being something like a top 10 carry doesn't mean very much.
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People like to circle jerk about individual skill way too much. Of all the things that separate top teams from those just below them, individual skill is probably last on the list.
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Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support.
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Hmm... this is how pros scene has become huh? EG, Alliance, and TT have the same owner then they can comfortably rotate some players among them, Loda on EG or Paijkatt on Alliance, this is not impossible now
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On December 12 2014 12:41 MegaZXN wrote:
Hmm... this is how pros scene has become huh? EG, Alliance, and TT have the same owner then they can comfortably rotate some players among them, Loda on EG or Paijkatt on Alliance, this is not impossible now
eg you mean TT right? no way someone is leaving eg anytime soon
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On December 12 2014 11:54 DucK- wrote:
Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support.
I'm pretty sure you're underestimating how important loda is to Alliance.
RTZ also gets no credit these days either when he's probably the best carry in the west lol.
I also don't think PJ is better than bulba either...PJ's never gotten as far as Bulba at TI, like not even close to him lol and they've both played support and cores
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I wonder when they are going to reveal the details. If it's after the year ends, there may be a small chance Wagamama could be considered but this is just pure speculation. He did specify he is looking to enter the competitive scene again and he has had competitive history with Sing. Then again, Waga is another core player and that is not what TT needs more of. So this is out of the picture.
With what has been discussed so far, it feels like it's either Pajkatt or Bulba leaving in exchange for other players, specifically a support player. The possible replacements: 1437, Fogged. They seem like the most intuitive choices given they are support players. Perhaps they also have an element of leadership and guidance that is lacking in TT. Someone on the team needs to boast the morale as well. Looking at their faces after a lost game at Dreamhack showed how demoralised they were and they need that one player who can deal with a loss effectively while boosting the confidence of the team.
On the side note, it's pretty funny watching Sing play with 1437 who rage quit a few times.
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On December 12 2014 14:01 SolarFlare93 wrote:
I wonder when they are going to reveal the details. If it's after the year ends, there may be a small chance Wagamama could be considered but this is just pure speculation. He did specify he is looking to enter the competitive scene again and he has had competitive history with Sing. Then again, Waga is another core player and that is not what TT needs more of. So this is out of the picture.
With what has been discussed so far, it feels like it's either Pajkatt or Bulba leaving in exchange for other players, specifically a support player. The possible replacements: 1437, Fogged. They seem like the most intuitive choices given they are support players. Perhaps they also have an element of leadership and guidance that is lacking in TT. Someone on the team needs to boast the morale as well. Looking at their faces after a lost game at Dreamhack showed how demoralised they were and they need that one player who can deal with a loss effectively while boosting the confidence of the team.
On the side note, it's pretty funny watching Sing play with 1437 who rage quit a few times.
Fogged and Ush are looking to form a team together, so I doubt Fogged will join TT. Don't know if Theeban would want to leave his coaching job with Secret.
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On December 12 2014 11:54 DucK- wrote:
Well replace Loda on old alliance with pajkatt and they should probably still be fine. Replace rtz with qojqva and eg should still perform decently. Sing was doing well in c9. Basically everyone on tinker except bulba is capable and of playing and performing in a top team.
It just shows how important the +4 is. Individually they are good enough, but they are dependent on the rest of their team too. Right now the team is performing so badly because everyone is playing out of position, and there's no real #5 support.
Pajkatt and Qojqva are both notably worse than Loda and Arteezy. Replace them and their teams absolutely would get worse. Besides, it's not like Alliance set a high bar right now anyway.
A team like VP is considerably closer to Tinker's individual skill than EG, and they're actually doing worse in results. Hell, Na'vi is far better individually and yet Tinker are doing better than them. So, again, it just doesn't seem to me like there's any reason to expect more from Tinker than what they've achieved, which is perfectly respectable - somewhere around the 4th best Western team. That's a higher rank than most of the players have achieved before, and only Sing could claim to have been of a higher rank in the previous year.
Basically, they're decent players on a decent team. They are not "performing so badly".
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EPT
