|
while I agree about the teams atmosphere, please do remember who started this whole mess, during final game of TI... and lost them the game with a draft that at that level should not have been beaten... yes he made one great play at the start but otherwise dragged them down for the rest of it
it went well for couple of months after, but then again, my guess is the same player started throwing a tantrum like a baby... and it went down the drain
that player is still in Na'Vi, and although I like how he played at TI3 and some months after and also how he tried at TI4, I feel he was the one detrimental factor starting this whole crap
I hope he can find the form of glory past, but this new Na'Vi didn't prove to me they are capable of repeating the past success yet
|
Yeah I'm on record agreeing with pretty much all of this.
|
|
|
Whole Na'Vi looked lost today vs NVMI games.
|
On September 14 2014 03:27 drusalnik wrote:
Whole Na'Vi looked lost today vs NVMI games.
Navi has looked lost since they started their new lineup.
|
I find it hard to pinpoint at the root of the problem, though. Sometimes Dendi simply does less well in his midlane than he should. Sometimes the Navi supports are completely out of place and allow ganks (and/or fail their own), causing deaths on Xboct or Dendi. That's early game. Then Xboct goes early BKB like today, gets almost no damage and Navi gets run over. Or Xboct just feeds somewhere and Navi loses when he goes for dieback. Funn1k isn't flawless either (lets not forget his sometimes horrible Chronos that cost Navi a lot) but almost seems like the most stable player along with Dendi.
So.. what gives? Even replacing Xboct (lets face it, not gonna happen anytime soon) wouldn't change that much, I feel.
|
Dendi and Funn1k are absolutely the anchors of the team. If either has a bad game it's probably lost. Same applies to support rotations and it was that way with the old roster. There's no game in recent history I watched where XBOCT made big plays to compensate for mistakes on his team.
Here's the problem as I see it: Puppey couldn't draft the way he wanted and expect performance (putting aside his clearly bad drafts from the last few months) because certain players would be sad about it. FNG now is willing to draft however certain players want; indeed I believe it was intentional to bring in a captain who would not assert his will in drafts over certain players. This leads to drafts that are some times kind of shit. Certain players also make fucking stupid plays that drag the whole team down. Certain players seem to be a common thread in many of the team's problems.
How do you fix it? I guess we'll find out after TI5.
|
Or maybe, just maybe, it's a new reformed team which went under big changes (losing captain, completely new support duo) and travelled from china to russia last week with no time to practice, so they may need a bit of time before being the top team they were.
They still won convincingly against empire and are showing a lot of good things. But I know that every single opportunity is good to bash Hvost and say how much new navi sucks.
I also regret Puppey's departure but I'm not forgetting his plays, drafts and attitude as a captain the last few months.
|
Or you could use some analytical skills and not just smile and hope for the best because it is possible everything will work itself out despite evidence to the contrary.
|
Or you could just calm down once and give them a bit of time. They have a new captain that seems to be the total opposite of ppy who was leading for 3 years.
Of course they show weaknesses. There are games where I ask myself "where are the supports" when Dendi and/or Xboct get bullied for 15 minutes without getting help.
BUT TI5 is not lost. The first event that really counts in my books is gonna be Starseries. By the standings they have a good chance to go to the lan finals and that's when I'm going to care the first time. And then we're expecting 6.82 at any moment which is another big game changer for all the teams.
Comparing them to EG who have one "new" member in fear who created the team is doing no good.Comparing them to C9 who lost one member who is damn popular but only a midlaner (fnatic showed that you can pick up a pub star midlaner and beat the best teams instantly) is stupid. Navi changed their support duo. They need to get to know each other as a duo than they need to learn how their cores play and so on.
Criticise them as much as you want but please don't play the doomsayer 24/7.
|
I'm not. But responding to every criticism with "give them some time" is childish. We are giving them time. There are still serious issues that time by itself isn't going to solve. If the level of the team's play somehow rises to the point that these issues are made marginal in impact then great*. But for myself and many others looking at the team's issues critically and if you actually listen to what we're saying you would know "give it some time" is a response that has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
But it is easier to just say we're salty after a loss.
* At 2014/15 level of pro Dota competition, I doubt this very strongly.
[Edit] Just to be clear: you don't have to agree with my premises or analysis at all. Just stop saying "give them time!!!!!!!1111" as a response to them. It's just a short way of saying "I'm not reading what you wrote and I'm going to condescend to you about your opinion."
|
I agreed that there are problems I just don't rate them that highly. When the same team over the span of two days loses 5-40 in one game and has their lycan with treads, vlads and necro3 at .. 13 or so minutes destroy enemies all over the map in another game than that says to me that they have problems with consistency but every possibilty to become a good team.
GSL broadcast was terrible but from the few shots I saw inside the venue the team seemed to be happy. I for one can't say how well the chemistry is right now. I've played with people in the past that were cool the first two months but I couldn't stand them the more I knew about them. Happened the other way around aswell.
They might get along right now but hate each other in two months, staying together for the money until they can't qualify for TI5 but it could work out the other way and they have a few good lan performances to qualify for TI5.
As much as I want them to they won't be as dominant as they were after TI1 when they showed up and won everything until that small German team drafted dark seer against them. But becoming a solid tier 1 team isn't totally out of reach even if right now they might not show the performances fans would like see.
|
I’ve completely changed my mind.
Na'vi is making insurmountable mistakes and no amount of time will make it better. Xboct is the worst player ever, kicking Puppey and Kuro instead of him was a mistake. In fact Volvo will cancel TI5 and discontinue developing Dota in the future. Everyone will switch to LoL and play for a bit more but then all of the games will end and we'll die.
|
That troll aside, the issue is that Xboct has been (and still is) a weird carry. He's like the anti EE in the way that he rushes for BKB and then gets no damage, for example. When you got supports that heavily sacrifice themselves for the 1 and 2 position and then your carry does weird stuff like that, what's going to change? Xboct gets free farm and excels at farming, Dendi can deal with the mid pressure as he always has. But you can't bank on your supports always being as successful as, say, the EG supports are. Especially when the EG supports get bigger than the Navi supports anyway.
It seems as if Navi looks at EG and thinks "oh yeah, we can do that" and then find out they can't. Starved supports that don't find success with ganks = Navi has been defeated. However good luck ganking the likes of C9, EG etc.
|
The BKB rush approach is from when Navi used to play Gyro with the old Puppey/Kuro lineup. . Puppey spoke about it on 1-2 casts how they would rush BKB on gyro in the TI3 era because of the large amount of magic damage and then fight around the BKB. I add that tidbit because it suggests that this was kind of a team decision / agreement back then on how the hero should be played - one that isn't exactly effective nowadays.
The way Navi played that game after securing farm for their cores felt very TI3 and really forced. Obviously, it's a good thing that they then emphasized pickoffs with Void Chrono and acquiring damage items for XBOCT to then win the game as opposed to just sticking with a failing playstyle. However, that their default "gear" is so often completely out of date in relation to how the patch is played is a real problem. Dendi's "I refuse to splitpush Lycan" was another great example of how out of touch their aggressive dual-core feels right now.
|
Dendi's "I refuse to splitpush Lycan" was another great example of how out of touch their aggressive dual-core feels right now.
I checked and that was his third pro game on Lycan (and first loss). I was unconvinced by the casters saying Lycan would not fit his style until I saw how strongly wolfratting seems to go against his instincts. I believe Dendi can play any way you need him to (and is quoted as saying no good player should ever say they cannot play a given role) but his comfort with this role/hero was obviously not at a high level.
These are the sorts of problems time and effort can fix, as long as everyone is studying the current state of the game and communicating.
I actually think this is the perfect time for Na'Vi to pick up a coach. Understanding the meta and studying other teams is something a full-time coach can focus on while players have to spend a lot of time practicing. Add to that the fact that you have a young captain who will not butt heads with anyone and a coach can have a strong influence; at a bare minimum he should be able to inform decision-making by providing analysis and improve play through intelligent post-match feedback.
I don't know who is available that would fit but picking up a good coach would go a long way to convince me that this team really wants to solve its structural problems.
|
Part of me wishes they'd invite Goblak back to accomplish this sort of thing.
I remember Dendi talking about Goblak being a large benefit for the team and how at times he felt Puppey wasn't really listening to Goblak's suggestions; which might suggest getting him back is impossible - to say nothing of the fact that Goblak is actually playing with NVMI. Him playing in an existing team makes that arrangement being renewed even more likely.
I can believe that Navi are prepared to try to change their style - after all, all the evidence suggests so far they've been prepared to shelve their long history of not-scrimming and put the time in. If they can change one long-term bad habit, one can extend the benefit of the doubt that they can change two.
A coach would definitely give some structural support to FNG and allow him to push Navi's cores in the direction they need to go, but I suppose the question is whom? The only person who actually comes to mind for me who has a very strong will and the respect of Navi's players who isn't playing right now is rOtk ... and yeah. I don't see that happening : P
|
Adding some data on the Lycan thing:
Dendi has 16 pub games on Lycan, making it one of his least-played heroes. He's never played Techies or...Earth Spirit.
I'd love to see either of those.
(source: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/70388657/heroes)
I feel like he still should have known better than to play Lycan the way he did. The lack of disables in that game was just fucking ridiculous but it was still winnable.
|
In all honesty, I am surprised they didn't just put XBOCT on the hero. XBOCT is probably the most proficient "rat dota" player Navi has.
Then again, I think in the broad sense of the game Navi had a very good idea with no real idea of how to execute it beyond "hurrr, we won lanes, we win game now?". Hanni was quite correct I think to highlight several big issues with the draft execution - not just Dendi's zero-splitpush-lycan, but also Navis dogged insistence on forcing the matter before key items arrived, as well as being too brave with their undying positioning.
Sure, an item to interrupt TP's would have been great, but there was every opportunity to be so farmed heroes died before they even got to TP.
|
Yeah that was a laning decision I agree with in principle. If you think Lycan has to be mid do you put XBOCT mid or put Dendi on Lycan? Ideally you could do either. More roster flexibility would make that kind of decision easier to execute; certainly it's a core strength of EG's right now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
