EPTNa`Vi Discussion - Page 33
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
It isn't how they play and it shows. Obviously they are better off the past several weeks since the changes then they have been all year which is good. The reason I been asking for people to wait is mainly because of the current patch. If they are still struggling the next patch, then we can start worrying about who should go next. But until then, just hang on and keep going. There isn't a point in worrying about how they are going to do with this patch. Dendi doesn't play the type of mids that are generally required in this patch. But yes, this issue has been said over and over and over lol. We all know it by now. Just wait until 6.82, and hope and see what happens. If they continue to not do so well, then we can discuss the "lets kick Hvost" train  | ||
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drusalnik
Bulgaria133 Posts
On September 20 2014 10:13 Seraphic wrote: Dendi and the others have said it time and again this meta works against them. It isn't how they play and it shows. Obviously they are better off the past several weeks since the changes then they have been all year which is good. The reason I been asking for people to wait is mainly because of the current patch. If they are still struggling the next patch, then we can start worrying about who should go next. But until then, just hang on and keep going. There isn't a point in worrying about how they are going to do with this patch. Dendi doesn't play the type of mids that are generally required in this patch. But yes, this issue has been said over and over and over lol. We all know it by now. Just wait until 6.82, and hope and see what happens. If they continue to not do so well, then we can discuss the "lets kick Hvost" train When will you understand that "patch doesn't favor them" excuse is long over due? They are a professional team therefor they have to be able to play to peoples expectations if they can't they have to go. What this means is all patches, all competitive heroes even if they don't create the trend they have to be able to master it and play it to a level that is high enough to score them wins. Once in a blue moon a super-star player can give you the edge over some one but team work and knowing your weakness goes a long way something Na'Vi do not want to use in their favor because as much as they are branded as a team some players still take the game as a 1 man show. This doesn't go over only for XBOCT it is for every one in every team every where in every country and in every league. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 20 2014 11:50 drusalnik wrote: When will you understand that "patch doesn't favor them" excuse is long over due? They are a professional team therefor they have to be able to play to peoples expectations if they can't they have to go. What this means is all patches, all competitive heroes even if they don't create the trend they have to be able to master it and play it to a level that is high enough to score them wins. Once in a blue moon a super-star player can give you the edge over some one but team work and knowing your weakness goes a long way something Na'Vi do not want to use in their favor because as much as they are branded as a team some players still take the game as a 1 man show. This doesn't go over only for XBOCT it is for every one in every team every where in every country and in every league. I have to agree. They are professionals and should be able to adapt to the meta. I think it is fully possible they could have if they were operating effectively as a unit but they weren't. Whether the meta changes much next patch or doesn't they are out of excuses: they adapt or die. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
You can see the same in football, players that are cracks won't do well in certain countries because the way football is played there doesn't suit their styles, no matter how good they are. And that of course impact their emotions making their performance even worse. If you don't like it deal with it, that's life. And can get always worse, when the meta doesn't suit you and suit the others, so you get owned. Many people says it, dota in china is diff from dota in europe which is diff from dota in usa, and many casters says the joke "russian dota, you can't understand what they do". So guys, let this go and wait for the next wave of creep to come. Nothing good will come of fixing in Dendi or Xboct, we already lost two guys we didn't want to lose. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3336 Posts
On September 20 2014 12:38 FHDH wrote: I have to agree. They are professionals and should be able to adapt to the meta. I think it is fully possible they could have if they were operating effectively as a unit but they weren't. Whether the meta changes much next patch or doesn't they are out of excuses: they adapt or die. I think saying a pro should be able to adapt to all metas is silly. It's hard to draw comparisons because other professional sports don't having changes like DotA does patches. But if we were to try and draw comparisons, we might be able to look at other eSports (closest thing we have to compare). Let's take SC2 for example. It's impossible to blame to players when they cannot produce results when every patch one race is buffed and one is nerfed to the ground. To say the meta does not suit them is a perfectly viable statement, and to say wait for the next patch makes perfect sense. This next example's going to suck, but I'll try my best to point out parallels. A couple decades ago, the NBA was a very big-man oriented game. Shaq, Kareem, Barkley, Duncan, etc were all cornerstones for a team's success. But as the game evolved to a more small, quick, guard oriented game with more focus on 3s, the traditional big man became less crucial for championship winning basketball. To say that centers needed to change their play style in order to be professional, in my opinion, undermines their whole identity (they weren't built nor trained to play that way). They're still consummate pros, and although the comparison isn't as good because we can't say the rules will change in order to cater to big men, we can say that the dominant play style might change where big men are the centerpieces of winning teams again. I think each season the NBA oscillates between 5-man positionless basketball and rigid 2 guard, 2 forward, center basketball depending on which teams do well, so there's that I guess~ So I'll say it again, let's first wait for the next patch before we take out our pitchforks :D | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
On September 20 2014 17:00 Bisu-Fan wrote: I think saying a pro should be able to adapt to all metas is silly. It's hard to draw comparisons because other professional sports don't having changes like DotA does patches. But if we were to try and draw comparisons, we might be able to look at other eSports (closest thing we have to compare). Let's take SC2 for example. It's impossible to blame to players when they cannot produce results when every patch one race is buffed and one is nerfed to the ground. To say the meta does not suit them is a perfectly viable statement, and to say wait for the next patch makes perfect sense. This next example's going to suck, but I'll try my best to point out parallels. A couple decades ago, the NBA was a very big-man oriented game. Shaq, Kareem, Barkley, Duncan, etc were all cornerstones for a team's success. But as the game evolved to a more small, quick, guard oriented game with more focus on 3s, the traditional big man became less crucial for championship winning basketball. To say that centers needed to change their play style in order to be professional, in my opinion, undermines their whole identity (they weren't built nor trained to play that way). They're still consummate pros, and although the comparison isn't as good because we can't say the rules will change in order to cater to big men, we can say that the dominant play style might change where big men are the centerpieces of winning teams again. I think each season the NBA oscillates between 5-man positionless basketball and rigid 2 guard, 2 forward, center basketball depending on which teams do well, so there's that I guess~ So I'll say it again, let's first wait for the next patch before we take out our pitchforks :D Impatient people are impatient. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
GGWP | ||
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
That said, I do think this team has shown so far they will put the time in. That kind of commitment is a key part to perform well no matter the trend. This may be equaled by the maturity/team ethic necessary to master heroes they're not comfortable with, it may not. Also, last night's loss to Empire was frustrating to watch. Their two game series against Fnatic and Empire showed some solid play (even after a disastrous earlygame against fnatic in game1). The starladder game was basically a series of feeds that let a Lycan snowball - the miscommunication/co-ordination was not there. I would expect some issues given a new captain and therefore main caller, but the game was annoying much the same. I don't feel it was about impatience either - six months in or twelve or two years, it's always the sadness to watch a team take two steps forward and then one back : p | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Or maybe it's a problem of some people didn't want to change styles for the meta. That's possible too. If it's this latter then we had all better pray the next patch puts the meta in Na'Vi's lap; if it's the former then it's not about the patch it's just about the team having time to work together. The interesting thing about the patch to me is seeing who is able to adapt most quickly to whatever changes. I know everyone would like to see it favor Na'Vi's aggressive playstyle but what if it doesn't? If Na'Vi doesn't find dominance in the new meta who will? There's a lot of skill and work ethic that goes into mastering new patches quickly. We'll see what happens. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On September 21 2014 03:10 FHDH wrote: I don't at all think the pro sports analogy holds up in this instance, nor does the comparison to SC2. This is about decision making from draft to game. I will agree that the meta didn't favor the game they were used to playing, and agree that they can't just flip a switch and change styles. I understand that they would have had to work to switch styles but any implication that this is not something they could have been successful at if they had put in the time I disagree with. I just think it's another factor of the same "we don't want to play together" problem. Or maybe it's a problem of some people didn't want to change styles for the meta. That's possible too. If it's this latter then we had all better pray the next patch puts the meta in Na'Vi's lap; if it's the former then it's not about the patch it's just about the team having time to work together. The interesting thing about the patch to me is seeing who is able to adapt most quickly to whatever changes. I know everyone would like to see it favor Na'Vi's aggressive playstyle but what if it doesn't? If Na'Vi doesn't find dominance in the new meta who will? There's a lot of skill and work ethic that goes into mastering new patches quickly. We'll see what happens. With that kind of argument it is better to stop right here, there is no use comparing what you think is appropriate to what anyone else think it is, if you don't think both analogies are worth, I do. I find what I and Seraphic said quite clear. If its about practicing and giving the time it needs to master a hero, more than one said, including me, that NaVi should have mastered most of the heroes of this meta. I specifically pointed out Funn1k on NP and Doom, and I can't complain given his performance on both heroes this past month. Dendi spent most of his time mastering Tinker, I don't think he particularly refused to practiced as he is the one who expressed he was keen to do it. Also, why would he practice heroes like DP that Puppey would never pick? It is known that Ppy doesn't listen to others and does everything by himself. In addition I never saw Ppy do well with any of the heroes of this meta, if he ever picked them at all (supp heroes I mean). How come you get rekt 234 times against Mirana / Bane combo and you never put that into practice? I find it pretty damn dumb coming from the mastermind. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
The NBA analogy doesn't work well because you can't change body types on your team when the meta changes with just a bit of focused effort, you have to make personnel changes to fix it within a reasonable amount of time and this is often difficult or impossible*. The same thing has happened in the NFL over and over again as defensive body types have had to adapt to offensive styles and body types, often cyclically, and what is happening in a team's division carries extra weight because of how impactful your division is on your playoff hopes. It's really difficult to find top-level NFL athletes who can just gain or shed pounds and still be outstanding at a position at their new weight, and that's not even counting height (see: what happened when Randy Moss entered the league). Given great Dota players, on the other hand, you'd expect that they can adapt to meta changes as a unit, without personnel changes, but with effort. So I agree with the rest of your post, it seems many of these problems just remained unfixed, and I believe we agree that they could have fixed them, they just didn't. * Great article on the Nash equilibrium and basketball here if you're into that kind of thing: http://wagesofwins.com/2012/11/06/an-introduction-to-nash-equilibrium-lineups/ | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
i feel fine about fngs HAIR ! it's his choice to do what the hell he want with himself . Dunno why you guys care  ... new team progress is good ! but very slow and we need much more time . Still i believe in it a lot . We throw most of games . We lost like 4-5 by outpick 3-4 by outplay and all others mostly THROWS . Which are very silly like "guys no DP ulti" - np GO IN AND FIGHT LIKE WARRIORS - die - lose game .still i dont feel losing by skill Q: Dendi, since u considered Tusk to be OP when u played him on your stream, will we see a mid Tusk from NaVi against some lower tier team? Yolonar it's hard to find strategy which he fits well Q: when do you plan to retire at what age? Svillaf i dont plan anything just live today Q: [question about push strats] i like all meta's the only thing i dont like about nowdays picks that void razor DP and all those EASY heroes got so strong dota is way too easy every noob pick VOID and crush or DP or RAZOR rightclick heroes its very normal that people search for easiest strongest ways to win and i am sad that heroes that need some skill and are fun to watch picked so rarely so i hope for some changes (QFT BROTHER) Q: Dondo whats the story behind your lost with HR riki pick? Aqilqisti we underrated our opponent now we put ourself in troubles on SL about heroes ! i wish all heroes would be balanced equal ofcourse but harder to use heroes should be sliiiiiiightlyyyyyyy stronger very very slightly not other way around DOTA Balance is best balance out of all games out there that's for sure don't touch tinker ! Some chat in Cyrillic I obviously don't understand so can't filter. | ||
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EnumaAvalon
Philippines3613 Posts
On September 23 2014 03:43 FHDH wrote: Dendi streamed today, he's in QnA right now so I'll pull quotes that are worth pulling (post-stream chat ended, done updating): Q: Dendi, since u considered Tusk to be OP when u played him on your stream, will we see a mid Tusk from NaVi against some lower tier team? Q: when do you plan to retire at what age? Q: [question about push strats] (QFT BROTHER) Q: Dondo whats the story behind your lost with HR riki pick? Some chat in Cyrillic I obviously don't understand so can't filter. Dondo approves! Tinker good hero! | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
I was scratching my head at that one too. They cannot lose anymore, suddenly with 3 loses put them at jeopardy. Top of the group, now 3 loses. (total of 4 ) | ||
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