On September 23 2015 06:34 Tephus wrote: That first draft + laning decison was awful... Second game started okay, but then they had no way to kill an AM, except if rubick stole an iniating spell...
PSM doesn't appear to be the saviour. Reminder that he was kicked from Kompas for Dread when HR signed them. After playing with him for months, they thought Dread would be an improvement.
I would not say the second draft was "okay" or even "good". You need to keep in mind the mobility of secret, which was in both games a clear indicator of their playstyle and potential of split pushing the lanes.
You got AM and QoP, both got short cd blinks and are able to flashfarm lanes (Scream, BF). In game 2 they also added a keeper. This is such a standard draft of ppy, they played this keeper split pushing drafts a lot, NAVI was not prepared. Even clock can easy join fights cause he got a strong gap closer and if he goes for aghs it gets even worse.
NAVIs draft was pure teamfighting potential, the whole draft was based on planned synergys like vacuum into earth-ulti or vacuum into gyro-ult or stuff like that. It was all about getting teamfights drafted from the beginning to the end. I often see the same problem when it comes to drafts against ppy or ppd, they look at factors which other captains are not keeping in mind.
The first draft of NAVI is nothing to discuss. A first IO pick in a meta where IO is not getting banned in 95% of the games.. great. You could get away even by drafting it 3rd or 4th without a problem.
On September 23 2015 06:34 Tephus wrote: That first draft + laning decison was awful... Second game started okay, but then they had no way to kill an AM, except if rubick stole an iniating spell...
PSM doesn't appear to be the saviour. Reminder that he was kicked from Kompas for Dread when HR signed them. After playing with him for months, they thought Dread would be an improvement.
I would not say the second draft was "okay" or even "good". You need to keep in mind the mobility of secret, which was in both games a clear indicator of their playstyle and potential of split pushing the lanes.
You got AM and QoP, both got short cd blinks and are able to flashfarm lanes (Scream, BF). In game 2 they also added a keeper. This is such a standard draft of ppy, they played this keeper split pushing drafts a lot, NAVI was not prepared. Even clock can easy join fights cause he got a strong gap closer and if he goes for aghs it gets even worse.
NAVIs draft was pure teamfighting potential, the whole draft was based on planned synergys like vacuum into earth-ulti or vacuum into gyro-ult or stuff like that. It was all about getting teamfights drafted from the beginning to the end. I often see the same problem when it comes to drafts against ppy or ppd, they look at factors which other captains are not keeping in mind.
The first draft of NAVI is nothing to discuss. A first IO pick in a meta where IO is not getting banned in 95% of the games.. great. You could get away even by drafting it 3rd or 4th without a problem.
First pick io wasn't the issue though. It was the mag pick that made their draft from good to shit.
NaVi losing against Wisp+Tiny? That "unexpected" for sure. What comes next? NaVi not able to deal with split push? NaVi losing against any kind of Naga?
Well... A couple days ago one of Russian casters (Casper or Maelstorm I think) said that in 2013 when Na`Vi and Alliance were at the top of the scene and any other team could consider a victory against any of the two a serious achievement. Now the both teams are probing for the bottom (rather successfully I should say), so losing to any of them can be considered if not a shame but at least an occassion to reflect on the team's training discipline.
So today it looked like Na`Vi and Alliance were fighting to decide which team is worse. Na`Vi won.
On September 28 2015 02:28 Taosu wrote: Well... A couple days ago one of Russian casters (Casper or Maelstorm I think) said that in 2013 when Na`Vi and Alliance were at the top of the scene and any other team could consider a victory against any of the two a serious achievement. Now the both teams are probing for the bottom (rather successfully I should say), so losing to any of them can be considered if not a shame but at least an occassion to reflect on the team's training discipline.
So today it looked like Na`Vi and Alliance were fighting to decide which team is worse. Na`Vi won.
Hehehh, it feels like this year's start is worse than last year's...
Like that they won't even qualify for Majors, and what is worse, even if ArtStyle came back, they would end up in the same spot as before the "roster change". I guess ZG has to do something drastic given that the team does not react, I don't know how much will he wait, it is since a few roster changes quite stupid to stay as they are. I would gladly split Xboct and Dendi (if he wants to keep both) and form two teams around them...
But again, with their recognition, there is no way they can be more ashamed, even if they lost to some unknown people as Alliance did back in the day.
On September 28 2015 03:28 Racket wrote: even if ArtStyle came back, they would end up in the same spot as before the "roster change".
I disagree. They had huge improvements when artstyle was around. They were moving upwards steadily, and I strongly believed it's a matter of time before they start getting good results. It's just everyone expects immediate results, instead of looking longer term.
On September 28 2015 03:28 Racket wrote: even if ArtStyle came back, they would end up in the same spot as before the "roster change".
I disagree. They had huge improvements when artstyle was around. They were moving upwards steadily, and I strongly believed it's a matter of time before they start getting good results. It's just everyone expects immediate results, instead of looking longer term.
I am not saying "that spot" is bad, I am saying it would be no improvement in comparison to what they achieved before, because in their eyes, even though they improved, the results were bad and triggered a change anyway.
I liked the former roster and I wanted it to stay as it was, it changed and the change was crap, as always. I would like to see the previous roster once again, I enjoyed watching them, these last last games they delivered only crap. But again, they don't seem to want the previous roster otherwise they would have stick together. Having ArtStyle back would be a huge improvement IMO, getting back to pre TI5 would be a huge improvement, not enough for them I guess.
On September 28 2015 03:28 Racket wrote: even if ArtStyle came back, they would end up in the same spot as before the "roster change".
I disagree. They had huge improvements when artstyle was around. They were moving upwards steadily, and I strongly believed it's a matter of time before they start getting good results. It's just everyone expects immediate results, instead of looking longer term.
I think they were getting better with FNG as well for a while..... kicked him way too fast.
I believe there is no one, currently playing for professional teams, who actually wants to transfer to NaVi. In addition, they don't seem to consider taking in unknown high MMR players and turn them into players, but I guess that is tied to their desire to be back at the top in no time, which is kinda impossible for them as we already saw.
Dig your own grave says the saying?
Edit: I refer to this in particular
— Reveal the secret: who else was considered as the fifth player apart from Russian Federation PSM and why was he chosen?
— First, the players were thinking it thoroughly and discussing the necessity of changes in our team. Unfortunately, there were few candidates, less than we wanted. The CIS Dota scene lacks powerful players in general. PSM was chosen almost immediately after the decision to reshuffle had been made.
I believe there is no one, currently playing for professional teams, who actually wants to transfer to NaVi. In addition, they don't seem to consider taking in unknown high MMR players and turn them into players, but I guess that is tied to their desire to be back at the top in no time, which is kinda impossible for them as we already saw.
— Reveal the secret: who else was considered as the fifth player apart from Russian Federation PSM and why was he chosen?
— First, the players were thinking it thoroughly and discussing the necessity of changes in our team. Unfortunately, there were few candidates, less than we wanted. The CIS Dota scene lacks powerful players in general. PSM was chosen almost immediately after the decision to reshuffle had been made.
Thing is, its easy to pick cores from pub: they will have 7500+ mmr and flashy plays. But its much harder to scout good support from pub, left alone a good captain. So, as far as Na'Vi cores don't wan't to switch roles, this basically leaves them with your typical tier2 CIS teams for player-pool to poach.
I believe there is no one, currently playing for professional teams, who actually wants to transfer to NaVi. In addition, they don't seem to consider taking in unknown high MMR players and turn them into players, but I guess that is tied to their desire to be back at the top in no time, which is kinda impossible for them as we already saw.
Dig your own grave says the saying?
Edit: I refer to this in particular
— Reveal the secret: who else was considered as the fifth player apart from Russian Federation PSM and why was he chosen?
— First, the players were thinking it thoroughly and discussing the necessity of changes in our team. Unfortunately, there were few candidates, less than we wanted. The CIS Dota scene lacks powerful players in general. PSM was chosen almost immediately after the decision to reshuffle had been made.
Thing is, its easy to pick cores from pub: they will have 7500+ mmr and flashy plays. But its much harder to scout good support from pub, left alone a good captain. So, as far as Na'Vi cores don't wan't to switch roles, this basically leaves them with your typical tier2 CIS teams for player-pool to poach.
I assume Xboct wanted to take a break but they couldn't poach any VP/Empire core and didn't want anything "lower", so they stayed as they were.
On September 28 2015 03:28 Racket wrote: even if ArtStyle came back, they would end up in the same spot as before the "roster change".
I disagree. They had huge improvements when artstyle was around. They were moving upwards steadily, and I strongly believed it's a matter of time before they start getting good results. It's just everyone expects immediate results, instead of looking longer term.
People expect short term results because the vast majority of the teams that turned out to be really good had short term results. All the TI winners(excluding TI1) were formed in the year of TI.
Man watching the latest Secret games just makes it more clear that the success of Na'Vi was mainly on Puppey's back and his leadership skills while keeping high skill ingame. I just can't see anyone who could go to Na'Vi and be the same to then as Puppey was
On October 05 2015 03:40 LemOn wrote: Man watching the latest Secret games just makes it more clear that the success of Na'Vi was mainly on Puppey's back and his leadership skills while keeping high skill ingame. I just can't see anyone who could go to Na'Vi and be the same to then as Puppey was
No doubt he was the brain/heart behind that Navi machine.
On October 05 2015 03:40 LemOn wrote: Man watching the latest Secret games just makes it more clear that the success of Na'Vi was mainly on Puppey's back and his leadership skills while keeping high skill ingame. I just can't see anyone who could go to Na'Vi and be the same to then as Puppey was
After so long, I believe the only thing left for them to do is to change cores. But only because these past two years made clear that they don't trust anyone who achieved less than themselves, I don't think there is any other explanation to the matter.
If they only stayed together as they were in TI5 and polish what they had back there, it could have worked, but without ArtStyle it is just like going through the same stuff all over again.
— Reveal the secret: who else was considered as the fifth player apart from Russian Federation PSM and why was he chosen?
— First, the players were thinking it thoroughly and discussing the necessity of changes in our team. Unfortunately, there were few candidates, less than we wanted. The CIS Dota scene lacks powerful players in general. PSM was chosen almost immediately after the decision to reshuffle had been made.
That is such a shitty attitude... I can't believe all of Na'Vi management AND players are that delusional.
— Reveal the secret: who else was considered as the fifth player apart from Russian Federation PSM and why was he chosen?
— First, the players were thinking it thoroughly and discussing the necessity of changes in our team. Unfortunately, there were few candidates, less than we wanted. The CIS Dota scene lacks powerful players in general. PSM was chosen almost immediately after the decision to reshuffle had been made.
That is such a shitty attitude... I can't believe all of Na'Vi management AND players are that delusional.
Yea, as I said, either no one wants to play for them anymore or they don't wanna take unknown players and make them into professional players. If they are expecting to find a Sonneiko for every role instantly they are quite dumb.
Also, if this goes on I am afraid we will be seeing Sonneiko's performance dropping, I hope not tho.
They are just so terrible. Why even change ArtStyle, its not as if he was the problem. He guided them to TI5 and they needed to understand they were one of the weakest teams there and their results was on point as to how "good" they were, which was not that good.
And of course he was not the problem at all, I think if anything at TI5 it was Dendi and Xboct that played bad most of the time.
They changed 4 captains, from FNG, Goblak, artstyle, psm now and they are crap. So its clearly not the captaincy that is the problem, their problem is the 1st and 2nd position.
I don't think Dendi is that good mid anymore, he has a limited hero pool in this day and age, back when the game was focused more on control he could play a puck, magnus, rubick, batrider, QoP(when no one was playing her) and just control the game, take people out of position, silence them, stun them, whatever and let his team do the damage.
With this burst meta he is not that great, yeah he does well in the early game, okay in the mid game, but he falls off significantly in the late game.
Xboct is probably their biggest issue, he just can't carry anymore, I haven't seen him carry his team at any point.
Overall I think the whole team dynamic is broken and can't be fixed, I think the layers don't really have the excitement when playing games, it probably feels like work at this point for them, maybe if everyone went their separate ways and in new teams they could get back their motivation and interest.
EPT
