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Na`Vi Discussion - Page 125
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Also there was actually no window for his solo pickoffs. When he was most dangerous they were not giving him openings. Any he might have had he didn't have the vision to verify. I think this came down again to game plan. If just wasn't there past a point. Movements and itemization were schizophrenic. After their rapid decline in groups, the surprising result would have been victory. TI5 is still going to be a great tournament as a fan, and maybe this was finally enough to force some real change. lol at the "kick everyone" though Yeah | ||
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V1ctor
Moldova1645 Posts
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uthgard
2098 Posts
the thing is though it was getting pretty obvious by the way he's never showing on the map except on that certain lane, which is why VG are always together and basically making his effort almost useless. obviously we don't know exactly why he keep stubbornly stay there but it certainly wasn't the play. the more glaring problem that I saw is actually how extraordinarily uninspiring artstyle's dazzle was | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 04 2015 15:06 uthgard wrote: Dendi's plan was simple, it was to insta blink eul -> xboct relocate in any enemy core that wander the lane to farm alone. While also pushing the lane. the thing is though it was getting pretty obvious by the way he's never showing on the map except on that certain lane, which is why VG are always together and basically making his effort almost useless. obviously we don't know exactly why he keep stubbornly stay there but it certainly wasn't the play. the more glaring problem that I saw is actually how extraordinarily uninspiring artstyle's dazzle was I couldn't watch the game but I got to peek at live dota app and it seemed to me that with the time Dendi spent in the trees he was waiting for someone to go there to farm to pick him off. Also I couldn't understand the Io pick but now that you say this it makes a lot of sense. I dare to say that their strat was read through and through by VG given how they were always together. In that case I would have used Io to split push on every opportunity. Anyways, all went as I predicted: NaVi top 4x4. I believe they can stick together for the majors, a new patch will bring new changes and a new chance for them to go forward, but I can see a forced roster change if not a voluntary one. My assumption, if forced, would be letting go Xboct or Funn1k, because I feel like Dendi is the biggest star in the team (commercially speaking). Kicking ArtStyle without any other change would be silly as the problem was always authority and going through that again will be painful. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
- Being ArtStyle the lowest performance, he casted many Weaves at wrong time allowing Rubick to steal it, like the one at the last roshan. - Xboct got caught out of position a few times for which he used BKB letting VG get rosh or a strong push out of that, for instance watch from minute 35 to 37. - Dendi should have just one shot Rubick, as he was key in a lot of fights with his steals. - Funn1k tried but even though he died a lot, only a few were due to avoidable mistakes. - Sonneiko had an Io, the ones he didn't save it was just for an inch, aside from that I don't think he could have done anything better. I believe their strat was easy to read and VG avoided it completely. I am sure that if NaVi would have played a more straight forward strat they would have won this match, just swapping Io for lets say a Lion. | ||
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Beirut
United States673 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
Dendis item build was fine. Refresher wouldn't have done shit without a BKB. How is he supposed to double ult against a shaker and a rubrick? So he went blink, because that was the game plan. Push the lanes with Xbot, find a pick-off with Dendi and take objectives. The only problem was, that Vici just sticked together and slowly farmed their three cores. I think to understand what happened you have to look into the early game. The casters didn't really talk about it much, but when Na'Vi traded 2 for 2 in the midlane and super got a double kill, that was a huge win for Vici. They had heavily invested into shutting him down and suddenly he was even with Dendi again. In order to do so Sonneiko stayed mid most of the time allowing QoP to get way more than she should bot, while Luna got complete free farm. Now looking at both lineups it should be clear, that Na'Vi couldn't fight 5v5 if both teams are about even in farm. How are they supposed to engage on Vici? You can't snowball in with several people, because you get wrecked by sonic wave and echo slam. What else did they have? There were simply no big teamfight spells on the side of Na'Vi. And with the early game plan ruined by an unfortunate exchange, they had to wait for a mistake from Vici. And Vici simply didn't give them a big enough opening. Considering all that, it was really impressive that they managed to take bottom rax based on a misplay by IceIceIce. Dendi looked silly in the trees and Dazzle looked bad, but what was he supposed to do? Dazzle is mainly good in teamfights and Na'Vi didn't want to fight. Artstyle didn't play super good but he made only a few mistakes. Also in the last fight the main issue wasn't the stolen weave, but the fact that Rubrick managed to get grave. But then again, a good Rubrick player will always get a good spell. There is only so much you can do against that. The issue with Na'Vi has been the same for the last two years, lack of practice, lack of preparation and a lack of discipline. That's why Puppey left and the team broke apart and it still is an issue now. Just listen to the interview from xbot. On top of that this patch isn't the best for individual playmakers like xbot and Dendi. | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
They actually performed better than expected, but they have some internal issues. Hell i have 3300 mmr and would casted that shallow grave on my carry. That shallow grave 4 seconds before the end was just the nail that sealed the coffin. There were a lot more mistakes both mechanical and item choices. I think that XBOCT played good, yes he overextends sometimes, but thats XBOCT, thats what he does. | ||
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druk_qs
Venezuela44 Posts
On August 04 2015 19:11 NInoff wrote: Shallow Grave on a dazzle instead of on antimage? With SF already down with no buy back? All XBOCT needed was 2 seconds to blink to fountain and heal. Then an easy kill on luna and GG - NaVi Wins... They actually performed better than expected, but they have some internal issues. Hell i have 3300 mmr and would casted that shallow grave on my carry. That shallow grave 4 seconds before the end was just the nail that sealed the coffin. There were a lot more mistakes both mechanical and item choices. I think that XBOCT played good, yes he overextends sometimes, but thats XBOCT, thats what he does. Not really - If Dazzle graved AM, then Luna and Sf could just stop focusing him and go for Ancient, AM still needed to heal and the time it would take him to get back up the game would be long over. People are never going to let it go because it's a Shallow Grave being casted on Dazzle instead of an Anti-Mage, but really, the game was already over by the time it was casted. Dendi and ESPECIALLY Sonneiko played well, for the most part, but their draft was completely terrible - Their whole thing was getting solo pick offs and they pretty much had no teamfight power whatsoever except for Weave (which is nowhere near enough). Funn1k is a great offlaner, Tusk was a waste on him (Bristleback would've been my choice for this one, I think he would've been great against Vg's line up and would've given Na'Vi a much stronger late game core), ArtStyle was useless. And you say that like it's supposed to be okay - he's supposed to be the carry, him just doing "what he does" is a bad thing. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
Item choices could have gone for the better or the worse, it just didn't pay off as NaVi was expecting to pick people off and VG stayed grouped the whole time. For those pick off to succeed: - Xboct went Abyssal instead of Butterfly, as Butterfly would be better in a team fight and Abyssal to disable any escape or kite. - Dendi went Euls + Blink to maximize picks off in combination with Io's ult. - My guess on Tusk is to just go in to clean what is still alive with Dazzle's grave. VG knew NaVi's game plan and moved accordingly to avoid it. Even without the mistakes VG had the upper hand by knowing what NaVi's intention was. Playing against such an easy to counter strat + the mistakes everyone made ended up in a particularly tight win for VG. NaVi CAN stick together because, if they have the right mindset, this can only get better. They can work it out, it is only up to them and the organization. On August 04 2015 19:33 druk_qs wrote: Not really - If Dazzle graved AM, then Luna and Sf could just stop focusing him and go for Ancient, AM still needed to heal and the time it would take him to get back up the game would be long over. Dendi and ESPECIALLY Sonneiko played well, for the most part, but their draft was completely terrible - Their whole thing was getting solo pick offs and they pretty much had no teamfight power whatsoever except for Weave (which is nowhere near enough). Funn1k is a great offlaner, Tusk was a waste on him (Bristleback would've been my choice for this one, I think he would've been great against Vg's line up and would've given Na'Vi a much stronger late game core), ArtStyle was useless. And you say that like it's supposed to be okay - he's supposed to be the carry, him just doing "what he does" is a bad thing. SF was dead. Their draft wasn't terrible, it is how you end up when your strat gets figured out. | ||
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druk_qs
Venezuela44 Posts
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wims80
1892 Posts
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On August 04 2015 19:41 druk_qs wrote: Yeah SF died a few moments after entering the base, my mistake, but the point still stands - The whole team is there, if AM gets to walk free they just stop going at him and win anyway. No, ancient was already too low. Even if dazzle graved AM, ancient still dies. Hell it was luna, she could of still hit am and have bouncing glaives kill ancient | ||
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druk_qs
Venezuela44 Posts
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
On August 04 2015 19:42 wims80 wrote: So that's it for NaVi then? Thats it how ? Alliance are still a thing and they didnt even get to the playoffs of the qualifiers I just woke up, will watch the game later (dont know when exactly  ) but considering the time prior to TI5, its more than enough  | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 04 2015 20:06 druk_qs wrote: That's exactly what I said - The game was over, a grave on the AM would've made no difference. That is right. Picking on ArtStyle for that mistake makes no sense, he is still the only captain that actually worked for NaVi over the past year if not two years. Edit: Also, double tapping Grave casts it on yourself? If so he may have just fucked up in the heat of the moment, and that puts the mistake in a whole different level, I am sure there is people flaming him thinking he decided he was a better choice to cast grave on. | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
Bristle would have been better in the later stages, but I think the entire idea was to pick off people. And despite Synderen insisting there was little synergy, I disagree. I think the idea was to rotate Io-Lina-Tusk around and have them gank a lot. Shards, Snowball, Spirits, Light strike, dragon breath. You can pretty much blow up everyone with that. The only issue was, that Vici was very active and just rotated very well. So they didn't really get enough from that combo. Another huge issue was, that they had trouble to disengage. Running from Shaker is hard. Running form Rubrick, Shaker and Qop is almost impossible. So even when they got a pick off, they usually paid in blood for it. | ||
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