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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
It seems this team has pretty much peaked. Top6 TI at best, repeating DAC and TI4 performance. They will probably end up taking out a big team like Empire and promptly lose to IG/LGD/VG and thus help Chinese teams to a respectable finish On a side note, interview from BDN. | ||
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Xendarii
327 Posts
On June 22 2015 13:02 Piledriver wrote: It seems this team has pretty much peaked. [...] I honestly don't think so. They have so much potential, I feel like the only thing that keeps them from being as good as Secret or EG are is their late game decision making, and that's mainly because of stupid throws. If they could stop these throws from happening, they'd be a lot better than they are right now. The question of course is... Can they? | ||
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Kabras
Romania3508 Posts
On June 22 2015 15:29 Xendarii wrote: I honestly don't think so. They have so much potential, I feel like the only thing that keeps them from being as good as Secret or EG are is their late game decision making, and that's mainly because of stupid throws. If they could stop these throws from happening, they'd be a lot better than they are right now. The question of course is... Can they? it's not just the late game throws, they are not as good this patch because they can't play qop/sf/leshrac at the same level as other teams so they're basically screwed. last patch envy's troll was good enough and while fata couldn't play sniper to save his own life they found a solution to that by picking bm and magnus instead and it worked really well. now they don't have that so they're fucked. s4 qop is most times a free win, so is G leshrac for vp, c9 doesn't have that. also as much as i hate to say it, i'm pretty sure notail's getting kicked after ti. he messes up the early game way too often and if he's not playing wisp or phoenix he's honestly worse than pie was. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
GO c9, I miss FATA zeus ): | ||
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goody153
44240 Posts
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On June 22 2015 15:29 Xendarii wrote: I honestly don't think so. They have so much potential, I feel like the only thing that keeps them from being as good as Secret or EG are is their late game decision making, and that's mainly because of stupid throws. If they could stop these throws from happening, they'd be a lot better than they are right now. The question of course is... Can they? I have to disagree. It is of course true that c9 has lost a bunch of games in the late game, but I don't think one should overstate the importance of that either. Let's look at the last 4 tournaments they have played for example. At SL12 they won g1 against iG, were close to winning g2 but made some crucial errors in some fights and lost, and drafted themselves into a very difficult game in game 3. At Summit 3 they lost to EG, in the last game they ended up drafting themselves into a hole with for example an offlane Zeus that not only had a very hard lane as a hero that game but it is also a hero bone7 hadn't played at all competitively. At MarsTV they beat iG and VG, but against Secret 1st game they got completely outplayed from the very first minutes (for example I seem to remember Arteezy's SF badly outlaning Fata's exort Invoker starting from the very first wave, later not only getting the mid tower solo but killing both n0tail and Fata solo in the process). Second game c9 got a lot of kills early, but their game plan fell apart relatively quickly (partly of course due to the items they bought). Now at ESL both games they lost to iG went pretty late, but imo the far more easily fixable errors happened early on. 1st game early game could have gone far more favorably for c9. For example first there was the EE&n0tail miscommunication where EE blinked at the same time as n0tail fissured and they missed the first blood. Moments later iG ganked mid, c9 was ready to respond, they gave Fata the chance to take a double kill but instead he somewhat seemed to panic, canceled a raze animation and not only did iG get a first blood but c9 got only a 1-1 trade instead of a double kill on the SF. Of course misplays happen sometimes, but anyway in this particular game c9 lost a chance to get a far better start than they had. Then in the mid game there was that big fight near rosh, where for some reason c9 decided to engage when Fata's BKB was down and bone7 didn't have all his Phoenix spells up. This made the game extremely hard for c9. Imo they even played some of the late game fights extremely well, but it was just too little too late. In the 3rd game the crucial turns happened pretty early on. c9 was dominating Ferrari's SF with Misery's SB charging the SF, and Fata's Lesh was well ahead in net worth. Then very early on c9 had no vision on the map at all, Luo's QoP had managed to sneak on the high ground at c9's ancients, and c9 were hanging around mid with 3 people. c9 engaged, QoP blinks behind them and all 3 c9 members dead. Then some time later, Fata is still the leader in net worth, he has a haste bottled and gets a DD rune. A DD+haste on a Lesh can be potentially game winning if used correctly at that stage of the game, so understandably Fata wants to make something happen. With 3 iG players missing, he tp's bottom going aggressive on Burning's Lina, but the 3 iG guys are there behind the corner, Fata gets lifted and instantly bursted. Misery and n0tail also engage and die without getting any kills. Instead of using the runes and turning the game well in your favor, c9 completely lost their advantage and got behind in the game. They managed to give them a chance to win later on and of course then they eventually lost in the late game, but there were big things that happened earlier, which maybe a team like Secret could have avoided. But having said this, I don't really agree with someone saying that they have "peaked". The one positive thing imo for c9 is that bone7's drafting seems to be going well. Based on MarsTV and ESL imo they have taken a step for the better as far as that goes, and that is a good sign going to TI. There is also a month or so still before the event even starts, so I wouldn't put it past c9 at all that they would still improve. Of course it would be silly to claim that c9 is definitely going to be a contender for a spot in the finals or something, but imo they are firmly in the group behind Secret and EG. Imo they are a team that is very likely to be top8 at worst, likely to be top6. To place better than that it depends on the matchup, whether they happen to face someone they match well against in the crucial game, just how strong the teams happen to be on that day, and how c9's preparations for TI will go. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On June 22 2015 19:56 spudde123 wrote: I have to disagree. It is of course true that c9 has lost a bunch of games in the late game, but I don't think one should overstate the importance of that either. Let's look at the last 4 tournaments they have played for example. At SL12 they won g1 against iG, were close to winning g2 but made some crucial errors in some fights and lost, and drafted themselves into a very difficult game in game 3. At Summit 3 they lost to EG, in the last game they ended up drafting themselves into a hole with for example an offlane Zeus that not only had a very hard lane as a hero that game but it is also a hero bone7 hadn't played at all competitively. At MarsTV they beat iG and VG, but against Secret 1st game they got completely outplayed from the very first minutes (for example I seem to remember Arteezy's SF badly outlaning Fata's exort Invoker starting from the very first wave, later not only getting the mid tower solo but killing both n0tail and Fata solo in the process). Second game c9 got a lot of kills early, but their game plan fell apart relatively quickly (partly of course due to the items they bought). Now at ESL both games they lost to iG went pretty late, but imo the far more easily fixable errors happened early on. 1st game early game could have gone far more favorably for c9. For example first there was the EE&n0tail miscommunication where EE blinked at the same time as n0tail fissured and they missed the first blood. Moments later iG ganked mid, c9 was ready to respond, they gave Fata the chance to take a double kill but instead he somewhat seemed to panic, canceled a raze animation and not only did iG get a first blood but c9 got only a 1-1 trade instead of a double kill on the SF. Of course misplays happen sometimes, but anyway in this particular game c9 lost a chance to get a far better start than they had. Then in the mid game there was that big fight near rosh, where for some reason c9 decided to engage when Fata's BKB was down and bone7 didn't have all his Phoenix spells up. This made the game extremely hard for c9. Imo they even played some of the late game fights extremely well, but it was just too little too late. In the 3rd game the crucial turns happened pretty early on. c9 was dominating Ferrari's SF with Misery's SB charging the SF, and Fata's Lesh was well ahead in net worth. Then very early on c9 had no vision on the map at all, Luo's QoP had managed to sneak on the high ground at c9's ancients, and c9 were hanging around mid with 3 people. c9 engaged, QoP blinks behind them and all 3 c9 members dead. Then some time later, Fata is still the leader in net worth, he has a haste bottled and gets a DD rune. A DD+haste on a Lesh can be potentially game winning if used correctly at that stage of the game, so understandably Fata wants to make something happen. With 3 iG players missing, he tp's bottom going aggressive on Burning's Lina, but the 3 iG guys are there behind the corner, Fata gets lifted and instantly bursted. Misery and n0tail also engage and die without getting any kills. Instead of using the runes and turning the game well in your favor, c9 completely lost their advantage and got behind in the game. They managed to give them a chance to win later on and of course then they eventually lost in the late game, but there were big things that happened earlier, which maybe a team like Secret could have avoided. But having said this, I don't really agree with someone saying that they have "peaked". The one positive thing imo for c9 is that bone7's drafting seems to be going well. Based on MarsTV and ESL imo they have taken a step for the better as far as that goes, and that is a good sign going to TI. There is also a month or so still before the event even starts, so I wouldn't put it past c9 at all that they would still improve. Of course it would be silly to claim that c9 is definitely going to be a contender for a spot in the finals or something, but imo they are firmly in the group behind Secret and EG. Imo they are a team that is very likely to be top8 at worst, likely to be top6. To place better than that it depends on the matchup, whether they happen to face someone they match well against in the crucial game, just how strong the teams happen to be on that day, and how c9's preparations for TI will go. I agree, there are definitely positives to take from the tournament even if it was heartbreaking to watch the match against IG live. The drafting looked solid in all three games and with a bit more luck (or, it has to be said, more levelheaded play), things could easily have been different. It does seem that the major thing holding c9 back just now is the lack of a certain coolness in heated situations, especially when the team is ahead. A mixture of a fear of making (the same) mistakes and a kind of tunnel-vision when looking for answers. On the other hand, the team played extremely well against IG from behind. I have great hopes for the team for TI5, this isn't an unrecoverable flaw. Hopefully the team can zero in on their own communication in these situations and reach a better way of handling their decisionmaking. If Fata and Misery can then refind their form from the first 4-5 months of the year (now that bone7 has massively improved his play from the same period), the sky is the limit. Certainly, it's gonna be a rollercoaster ride and I wouldn't want it any other way. | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
One day BigDaddy will play Meepo again and lead C9 to glorious victory | ||
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Sabu113
United States11076 Posts
On June 23 2015 05:53 m0ck wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2015 19:56 spudde123 wrote: I have to disagree. It is of course true that c9 has lost a bunch of games in the late game, but I don't think one should overstate the importance of that either. Let's look at the last 4 tournaments they have played for example. At SL12 they won g1 against iG, were close to winning g2 but made some crucial errors in some fights and lost, and drafted themselves into a very difficult game in game 3. At Summit 3 they lost to EG, in the last game they ended up drafting themselves into a hole with for example an offlane Zeus that not only had a very hard lane as a hero that game but it is also a hero bone7 hadn't played at all competitively. At MarsTV they beat iG and VG, but against Secret 1st game they got completely outplayed from the very first minutes (for example I seem to remember Arteezy's SF badly outlaning Fata's exort Invoker starting from the very first wave, later not only getting the mid tower solo but killing both n0tail and Fata solo in the process). Second game c9 got a lot of kills early, but their game plan fell apart relatively quickly (partly of course due to the items they bought). Now at ESL both games they lost to iG went pretty late, but imo the far more easily fixable errors happened early on. 1st game early game could have gone far more favorably for c9. For example first there was the EE&n0tail miscommunication where EE blinked at the same time as n0tail fissured and they missed the first blood. Moments later iG ganked mid, c9 was ready to respond, they gave Fata the chance to take a double kill but instead he somewhat seemed to panic, canceled a raze animation and not only did iG get a first blood but c9 got only a 1-1 trade instead of a double kill on the SF. Of course misplays happen sometimes, but anyway in this particular game c9 lost a chance to get a far better start than they had. Then in the mid game there was that big fight near rosh, where for some reason c9 decided to engage when Fata's BKB was down and bone7 didn't have all his Phoenix spells up. This made the game extremely hard for c9. Imo they even played some of the late game fights extremely well, but it was just too little too late. In the 3rd game the crucial turns happened pretty early on. c9 was dominating Ferrari's SF with Misery's SB charging the SF, and Fata's Lesh was well ahead in net worth. Then very early on c9 had no vision on the map at all, Luo's QoP had managed to sneak on the high ground at c9's ancients, and c9 were hanging around mid with 3 people. c9 engaged, QoP blinks behind them and all 3 c9 members dead. Then some time later, Fata is still the leader in net worth, he has a haste bottled and gets a DD rune. A DD+haste on a Lesh can be potentially game winning if used correctly at that stage of the game, so understandably Fata wants to make something happen. With 3 iG players missing, he tp's bottom going aggressive on Burning's Lina, but the 3 iG guys are there behind the corner, Fata gets lifted and instantly bursted. Misery and n0tail also engage and die without getting any kills. Instead of using the runes and turning the game well in your favor, c9 completely lost their advantage and got behind in the game. They managed to give them a chance to win later on and of course then they eventually lost in the late game, but there were big things that happened earlier, which maybe a team like Secret could have avoided. But having said this, I don't really agree with someone saying that they have "peaked". The one positive thing imo for c9 is that bone7's drafting seems to be going well. Based on MarsTV and ESL imo they have taken a step for the better as far as that goes, and that is a good sign going to TI. There is also a month or so still before the event even starts, so I wouldn't put it past c9 at all that they would still improve. Of course it would be silly to claim that c9 is definitely going to be a contender for a spot in the finals or something, but imo they are firmly in the group behind Secret and EG. Imo they are a team that is very likely to be top8 at worst, likely to be top6. To place better than that it depends on the matchup, whether they happen to face someone they match well against in the crucial game, just how strong the teams happen to be on that day, and how c9's preparations for TI will go. I agree, there are definitely positives to take from the tournament even if it was heartbreaking to watch the match against IG live. The drafting looked solid in all three games and with a bit more luck (or, it has to be said, more levelheaded play), things could easily have been different. It does seem that the major thing holding c9 back just now is the lack of a certain coolness in heated situations, especially when the team is ahead. A mixture of a fear of making (the same) mistakes and a kind of tunnel-vision when looking for answers. On the other hand, the team played extremely well against IG from behind. I have great hopes for the team for TI5, this isn't an unrecoverable flaw. Hopefully the team can zero in on their own communication in these situations and reach a better way of handling their decisionmaking. If Fata and Misery can then refind their form from the first 4-5 months of the year (now that bone7 has massively improved his play from the same period), the sky is the limit. Certainly, it's gonna be a rollercoaster ride and I wouldn't want it any other way. This has been true forever. The team's great strength is that they play keep away like no one. They can find air in almost any game. The problem is that like game 3 against IG they usually blow it soon after that. It's rare you see c9 go on a rampage of teamfights against anyone who isn't secret. It does seem like they haven't been able to match their play at DAC. It's not that the pieces are bad. You'd think Fata, Envy and NoTail can put up major plays like anyone else. It's just as a group a tier below EG, Secret and VG. | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On June 23 2015 12:22 Sabu113 wrote: This has been true forever. The team's great strength is that they play keep away like no one. They can find air in almost any game. The problem is that like game 3 against IG they usually blow it soon after that. It's rare you see c9 go on a rampage of teamfights against anyone who isn't secret. It does seem like they haven't been able to match their play at DAC. It's not that the pieces are bad. You'd think Fata, Envy and NoTail can put up major plays like anyone else. It's just as a group a tier below EG, Secret and VG. i dont think you can count vici in that group, at least not right now;) @topic since there is no mouz at ti, i will root for c9! why do i make it so hard for myself? i dont know... | ||
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Forte
Australia101 Posts
Can anyone briefly translate this, apparently Misery will be kicked/leave after TI5?? Sorry my Chinese isn't any good... | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
On June 26 2015 23:01 Forte wrote: http://dota2.178.com/201506/229296158673.html Can anyone briefly translate this, apparently Misery will be kicked/leave after TI5?? Sorry my Chinese isn't any good... Sure. Keep in mind that this is only a translation of what the site is saying. 1. Internal issues with C9 according to misery's stream (also mentioned by EE in his own stream, as a reason why he hasn't been able to play his best) 2. Misery taking a break from the team to get away from the situation, he will practice by himself and relax at home until he rejoins with the team. EE doesn't know about this yet 3. They (EE and misery) haven't communicated since ESL One, apparently EE said something like he wants to kill misery after TI is over? 4. Misery's contract with C9 ends after TI5, he will leave the team if the situation doesn't improve after that Once again, this is just a translation of what that site is saying. | ||
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Forte
Australia101 Posts
Man I hope C9 resolves their issues, I really want them to do well in TI5  | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
When EE talked on stream he mentioned that he did have a pretty big argument with Fata at ESL, but they already talked about things as a team the day after. c9 is soon going to bootcamp, and for what it's worth at least to me EE seemed pretty positive about the team. He said something like that they are looking alright for TI even with their current issues, but if they can fix things at the bootcamp then they are looking "extremely strong". | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Too many different players not executing fast enough as a coherent unit. EE was talking about how AUI would yell at the team in late game situations and say "EE is the most farmed hero on the map, everyone STFU and listen to him", and the team would follow suit. Its when there is hesitancy is where break downs happen. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:03 spudde123 wrote: I'm not sure how accurate that is.. Misery has not streamed in over a month, so I'm not sure where this info supposedly is coming from. Also c9 just played a Dotapit match yesterday, so it seems highly unlikely to me that they "haven't communicated". When EE talked on stream he mentioned that he did have a pretty big argument with Fata at ESL, but they already talked about things as a team the day after. c9 is soon going to bootcamp, and for what it's worth at least to me EE seemed pretty positive about the team. He said something like that they are looking alright for TI even with their current issues, but if they can fix things at the bootcamp then they are looking "extremely strong". Yeah, I checked the past broadcasts on Misery's stream and the last one was in May. Not sure where the rumors are coming from. | ||
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Elurie
4716 Posts
On June 27 2015 01:10 Tien wrote: The problem with the team right now is late game call making. Too many different players not executing fast enough as a coherent unit. EE was talking about how AUI would yell at the team in late game situations and say "EE is the most farmed hero on the map, everyone STFU and listen to him", and the team would follow suit. Its when there is hesitancy is where break downs happen. Well, it's hard to stfu and listen to someone you don't fully trust to make the late-game decision. :p Catch22 is a bitch. | ||
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Kabras
Romania3508 Posts
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On June 27 2015 02:49 Kabras wrote: well envy is playing like utter shit lately, i can see why misery or anyone else would be mad at him. it just sucks that it has to happen right before ti. the solution is not talking it over and all that crap, the solution is envy playing better. I don't think the arguments were even about EE playing bad. From what I gathered from what EE said in his q&a is that people were very chaotic and not willing to follow the same plan (seemingly especially Fata), and it screwed c9 over in the last game. Not sure what points in the game exactly he was talking about, but a pretty obvious candidate was when c9 first had won a big fight and killed rosh in the lategame, and then when it was expiring iG smoked. Clearly c9 predicted this and gathered themselves in the Dire woods in a good position on the high ground waiting for iG to come, but Fata then proceeded to hit a creep wave mid alone and died a few seconds later. These sorts of things are not fixed by someone "playing better" but just having someone take the lead and the others actually trusting him and following. EE said himself that he felt responsible for game 1 due to that blink in near rosh, but apparently bone7 for example doesn't even blame EE for the game as in his eyes the game was already really hard at that point and it was only a matter of time before they make some sort of mistake and lose control completely. edit: And as far as this Misery thing specifically goes, at least to me it doesn't seem like the post actually has any foundation. I can't see where he could have made these comments. Maybe it could be some sort of an error and Fata said something when he streamed recently? But even then if he actually would have said something like this one would think reddit would be all over it. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On June 27 2015 02:21 Elurie wrote: Well, it's hard to stfu and listen to someone you don't fully trust to make the late-game decision. :p Catch22 is a bitch. No its not hard, if they listened to EE in game 3 they would have won it instead of aimlessly walking around. Fata had some game breaking random deaths that game. Too much hesitation plays. They had aegis on Lesh and never came together to take advantage of the aegis, then it ran out and fata died immediately after. We'll see if they pull it together. | ||
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