EPTShanghai Previews - Alliance - Page 2
| Forum Index > Dota 2 General |
|
icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
| ||
|
goody153
44236 Posts
| ||
|
erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
Nice to see them back in form, though. Dota always seems more exciting when they are around, whether you think they are heroes or villians. | ||
|
dardoz
Ireland26 Posts
Team's win championships, not single players | ||
|
DavoS
United States4605 Posts
| ||
|
DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
The key imo is to shut down loda, and not focus on LD. That way alliance's draft simply becomes merely a sole LD core, as loda is underfarmed. We all know how terrible a #1 LD draft is. Alternatively teams can just stop being stubborn and ban np/LD. You take away alliance's most comfortable strategy. You force bulldog to play heroes he isn't great in (playmaking ones). Yes maybe s4 gets bat or puck but that's the lesser evil. | ||
|
Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
On February 19 2016 05:57 DV G wrote: Altough I agree with your statement, perhaps next time sending a PM would be better for the writer and the thread, just an idea. some people either want Alliance to be back too hard or I'm too skeptical. We have nothing against people giving us feedback in the comments. Acritter is usually helpful so I don't think anyone takes it the wrong way  | ||
|
bananaboy378
United Kingdom39 Posts
Bulldog has spoke about it a lot of late on stream. Basically, they pick an offlane that threatens the enemy 1 all the time so they cannot rotate supports to gank mid and safelane. They also have a mid that keeps the enemy mid, in lane and creates a lot of space after the laning phase breaks down a little. They then have a greedy as they can safelane. During laning phase they keep a 3-1-1 vs 3-1-1 scenario, sacking bulldog completely. This goes on until min 10 where s4 gets his 1st item and supports farm. Then, min 10-15 game s4 sets up ganks with akke while egm protects loda farming but being very reactive to fights. At this point bulldog starts hoovering up farm. min 15-25 bulldog is afk farm if he can while the rest of alliance groups up with good items. Normally look at rosh around now. min 25-30 alliance look at 5 man-ing and taking any remaining towers with the gold advantage they have and a pick off into rakks. Or drawing enemy into a 4 v 5 around a t1/around the river while bulldog takes a t3/rakks. 30+ cannot be scripted on any team. | ||
|
spudde123
4814 Posts
On February 19 2016 20:47 bananaboy378 wrote: I feel that you are a little off with the strengths of alliance and their strategy. Bulldog has spoke about it a lot of late on stream. Basically, they pick an offlane that threatens the enemy 1 all the time so they cannot rotate supports to gank mid and safelane. They also have a mid that keeps the enemy mid, in lane and creates a lot of space after the laning phase breaks down a little. They then have a greedy as they can safelane. During laning phase they keep a 3-1-1 vs 3-1-1 scenario, sacking bulldog completely. This goes on until min 10 where s4 gets his 1st item and supports farm. Then, min 10-15 game s4 sets up ganks with akke while egm protects loda farming but being very reactive to fights. At this point bulldog starts hoovering up farm. min 15-25 bulldog is afk farm if he can while the rest of alliance groups up with good items. Normally look at rosh around now. min 25-30 alliance look at 5 man-ing and taking any remaining towers with the gold advantage they have and a pick off into rakks. Or drawing enemy into a 4 v 5 around a t1/around the river while bulldog takes a t3/rakks. 30+ cannot be scripted on any team. I think this description is pretty good. This is also where it becomes problematic to only talk about whether you shut down Bulldog or Loda or whoever. One of the main reasons teams concentrate on shutting down Bulldog is that they can't afford to have him 1v1 because of the heroes he tends to play. LD, NP and Brood for example can all do extremely well in lane against a lot of heroes if left alone. You also often can't be super efficient on your own safelane because when Bulldog is playing these heroes he can often disrupt your stacking and pulling during the first few minutes, which already puts you pretty badly behind if Alliance's safelane can do whatever they want. Not to mention that these heroes can also keep tabs on the supports, whereas Alliance's supports may consistently have the luxury of staying off the map. I think it's pretty important to pick something for your safelane that can deal with Bulldog fine alone, at least after getting help for the first few minutes and an early lead. After that you can't just use your time to keep Bulldog out, if you can use the jungle to get levels for yourself that is an option, or if that is not possible because Bulldog is screwing you over with summons then you should have heroes that can combat the rest of Alliance and put pressure early. It simply isn't a winning strategy to play a static game if you are losing the economy battle. | ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On February 19 2016 20:47 bananaboy378 wrote: 30+ cannot be scripted on any team. Old C9 scripted it pretty well. That's when they throw. People are talking a lot about Alliance needing a highly protected safelane for Loda, but that's outright incorrect, isn't it? Alliance are the only major team in recent memory to use aggressive trilanes, and they pull it off with incredible style. They can win with ABD solo safe just as much as they can win with a comfortable Loda lane. All that I'm hearing here is that their gameplan will be disrupted if you put a lot of pressure on lanes, but isn't that true of literally any team? And moreover, Alliance tend to bounce back really well from bad situations and never show defeatist attitudes. Like, let's talk seriously about what's involved in shutting down Loda or s4. In every game, barring a crazy outdraft (and unless you're EG, that should never be your primary strategy), at most you get to win one lane and break even on two. Against Alliance, then, you're choosing whether to shut down Loda, s4, or ABD. Shutting down ABD obviously doesn't work: he's an insanely good laner who specializes in lane domination heroes, and he farms on a really high level with all of his heroes. In fact, given those tendencies, you're more likely to just lose lane against him unless you devote supports. So, instead, you decide to shut down Loda or s4. Shutting down s4 is what has worked the most in the past: you mess up his game, he isn't able to make his critical midgame rotations, and Alliance doesn't get their necessary farming space. It's easier said than done, but it can really slow down Alliance's timings if you can accomplish it. Shutting down Loda, though? He's a very consistent player, despite what everyone says, and he can just hang back and wait on farm. Furthermore, he tends to specialize in heroes that can either farm very safely (PA), who can flashfarm (Sven), or who can catch up with kill gold during the midgame (Spec). Meanwhile, if you're devoting this kind of pressure to the safelane, s4 and ABD are almost certainly having free lanes. s4 is basically always guaranteed to mess things up, but looking at ABD, you're going to see one of three things: either he plays LD, in which case he gets a really fast Midas/Radiance and Alliance take midgame fights, he plays NP, in which case he teleports in and turns attempted Loda ganks into favorable fights, or he plays Beastmaster and teleports in with Shout. In no case are you really happy to be playing against him, and if you devote resources to ban out his LD/NP, chances are you're going to be facing an Akke Chen as well, making things even scarier. So all this talk about Loda needing a protected safelane either comes down to saying "If Alliance lose all three lanes, their strategy doesn't work" or else being incorrect. I don't see it being a valuable strategic contribution either way. Shutting down s4 is the way to go. | ||
|
FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
| ||
|
spudde123
4814 Posts
On February 20 2016 04:12 Acritter wrote: People are talking a lot about Alliance needing a highly protected safelane for Loda, but that's outright incorrect, isn't it? Alliance are the only major team in recent memory to use aggressive trilanes, and they pull it off with incredible style. They can win with ABD solo safe just as much as they can win with a comfortable Loda lane. All that I'm hearing here is that their gameplan will be disrupted if you put a lot of pressure on lanes, but isn't that true of literally any team? And moreover, Alliance tend to bounce back really well from bad situations and never show defeatist attitudes. Like, let's talk seriously about what's involved in shutting down Loda or s4. In every game, barring a crazy outdraft (and unless you're EG, that should never be your primary strategy), at most you get to win one lane and break even on two. Against Alliance, then, you're choosing whether to shut down Loda, s4, or ABD. Shutting down ABD obviously doesn't work: he's an insanely good laner who specializes in lane domination heroes, and he farms on a really high level with all of his heroes. In fact, given those tendencies, you're more likely to just lose lane against him unless you devote supports. So, instead, you decide to shut down Loda or s4. Shutting down s4 is what has worked the most in the past: you mess up his game, he isn't able to make his critical midgame rotations, and Alliance doesn't get their necessary farming space. It's easier said than done, but it can really slow down Alliance's timings if you can accomplish it. Shutting down Loda, though? He's a very consistent player, despite what everyone says, and he can just hang back and wait on farm. Furthermore, he tends to specialize in heroes that can either farm very safely (PA), who can flashfarm (Sven), or who can catch up with kill gold during the midgame (Spec). Meanwhile, if you're devoting this kind of pressure to the safelane, s4 and ABD are almost certainly having free lanes. s4 is basically always guaranteed to mess things up, but looking at ABD, you're going to see one of three things: either he plays LD, in which case he gets a really fast Midas/Radiance and Alliance take midgame fights, he plays NP, in which case he teleports in and turns attempted Loda ganks into favorable fights, or he plays Beastmaster and teleports in with Shout. In no case are you really happy to be playing against him, and if you devote resources to ban out his LD/NP, chances are you're going to be facing an Akke Chen as well, making things even scarier. So all this talk about Loda needing a protected safelane either comes down to saying "If Alliance lose all three lanes, their strategy doesn't work" or else being incorrect. I don't see it being a valuable strategic contribution either way. Shutting down s4 is the way to go. Who said they need a highly protected safelane for Loda? If anything, the difference in the regular 3-1-1 setup can come not from whether the carry is protected but how well the supports are able to utilize their time. Due to the heroes Bulldog generally plays, the other team often has to put more resources into securing their carry farm and if he plays a summon hero he can also keep tabs on the supports pretty well. This can then free up Alliance's supports to do easier rotations or get their own levels up. Not to mention that in the case both offlaners have to somewhat abandon the lane, Bulldog's heroes generally will not lose the farm war in the jungle. In the aggro trilane scenario I would say they generally have a favored 1v1 for Bulldog in that case on the safelane, their trilane is generally good, and s4 has a pure 1v1 so they do well on economy just like they do in the regular setup. And when it comes to "shutting down" Loda, s4 or whoever, I think it just depends on the game what is possible. I think the point Duck and maybe some others primarily try to make is that in the LD games you can't just spend time on Bulldog, he will passively farm with his hero, maybe even disrupt your first few pulls if you have a bad lane, the rest of the team will get a lot of farm and levels and then they buy time for Bulldog by having 4 strong heroes for fights. By trying to bully s4 or Loda it also generally means you are somewhat contesting the time of Alliance supports. What exactly is the wise approach depends on the game. Mostly it probably is s4 who has the most vital hero for early teamfights, but it isn't necessarily the case. | ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
Short version: it's easy to get your carry to go even with ABD with just one support and to win mid with the other. Offlaner can have a moderately rough lane against 3. End result is your carry and mid come online at the same time, while only Loda is ready to fight (ABD plays heroes that come online later based on their core mechanics). This gives you a substantial window where you win fights. In comparison, you need 3 heroes to contest Loda, resulting in ABD and s4 getting comfortable lanes. If ABD is playing LD, Alliance can play defensive and wait for their scary-early Radi timing. If ABD is playing NP, then the aggro tri won't work because it's 2 cores 2 supports against 1 core 2 supports. Either way, much better result than having s4 difficulties. This is borne out in competitive play. The other success story against Alliance is banning out Akke heroes. Presumably the best way to beat Alliance is to do both. | ||
gaijindash
Japan376 Posts
On February 19 2016 07:01 rabidch wrote: writers dont mind people tkaing a dump on them  we are kind of used to it. This was totally constructive feedback which is always welcome, just need to double check my proofreading | ||
|
AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On February 19 2016 04:53 Acritter wrote: Diffuse=disperse, like taking something and very finely scattering/spreading it out. Defuse=disarm a bomb, often used metaphorically to describe taking something dangerous and making it harmless. Prophylactic is used for preemptive prevention of disease. I can sort of see how it could be used here, but it's perhaps a little too avant-garde. Intension is not the same thing as intention or intent. Semicolons separate complete sentences that are only related in meaning. I dunno if it's just me, but I couldn't seem to access the tabs for the various Alliance players. Just so y'all know. Overall, the article was good, even if some of the words didn't quite fit. Prophylaxis is actually a really great description for a lot of Alliance play. In chess, prophylaxis is the sort of play that is based around understanding your opponents intentions and frustrating them. They understand very well the weaknesses of their strategies and do a very good job of covering for those by understanding what heroes and approaches can stop their engine coming online and always directing their decisions towards preventing that. This is why so many of their games just go smoothly with Alliance crushing seemingly effortlessly. The effort is all in the planning. | ||
|
bluzi
4703 Posts
Naga will see play from Alliance , usually when they get the Bat/Puck mid , only ? mark for me is alliance are able to play the ES now , they NEVER showed it to be a tool for them and they ban it everytime , if they are able to play it well (EGM looking at you) they will be very hard to draft again. the usual OD/DP/Invoker mid picks will be ignored as usual (which i dont like as its abusive but what can you do). Wish the team good luck and hope they can preform ,a strong group stage will see them far in the tourny | ||
|
Ohforfsake
Norway204 Posts
As for this review. Nice writing. I don't think any of the weaknesses written about is real anymore. They used to be in Alliance 2013 but not in Alliance 2016. I have some ideas on what might work against them from the games I've seen but that is something I'll keep to myself since I want them to win. :D Go Alliance! | ||
|
AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On February 20 2016 23:03 Ohforfsake wrote: Everything in the buildup to this Major has been perfection by Alliance. Even the losses to Vega. They have now put themselves in the position that every winner of the last few TI/Majors have been. A strong contender but not the favorite. Let's hope they can take it all the way now. As for this review. Nice writing. I don't think any of the weaknesses written about is real anymore. They used to be in Alliance 2013 but not in Alliance 2016. I have some ideas on what might work against them from the games I've seen but that is something I'll keep to myself since I want them to win. :D Go Alliance! I'd barely care about or count performances in the Captain's Draft. It's nothing like actual DotA. It's as predictive as Fischer Random Chess. The absence of most heroes is perhaps a good gauge of generalistic DotA skill and creativity, but it's not a good test of how teams will perform in real DotA when teams have the whole hero pool and can plan accordingly and teams with narrow hero or strategy pools (like Alliance) can murder you even if you know exactly what their strategy is and what heroes they favour. | ||
|
Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
| ||
|
Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
| ||
| ||
