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Shanghai Previews - Evil Geniuses

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
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Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-03 00:27:54
February 22 2016 14:52 GMT
#1
IntroductionGameplayPlayersHow to Beat

EvilGeniuses

Evil Geniuses come into the Shanghai Major as the reigning TI champions. More than that, they come in as the victors of what could be called the first major in all but name, and clearly the predecessor to this Shanghai Major: the Dota Asia Championships 2015. Even though EG are on a distinct cold streak, having won only one LAN tournament since TI5, they have a lot going for them at the Shanghai Major.

One of the perks of winning an International is the ability to decline tournaments without starving. EG has long been a team that is selective about its appearances; since TI5 they’ve participated in just 7 tournaments. While that’s not an irrelevant amount, it’s a far cry from what some less successful teams have to subject themselves to in order to make ends meet. Although 3rd place at the Frankfurt Major was a disappointment, since then, EG have managed to win The Summit 4 and have come in second place at two significant international LANs. A string of performances like that leaves little question about their form leading into this Major.

Gameplay

EG is a team loaded with brilliant talents. While players like Universe and Fear are among the most experienced and reliable around, they pale beside the raw talent and potential of Sumail and Arteezy. Capable of matching any Dota team ever assembled on the grounds of raw skill, what makes EG truly great is their ability to play under the brilliant captaincy of ppd. EG find the most success when they can dictate the pace of the game, taking objectives and proactively choosing their fights. Even in games where they are disadvantaged, EG often manage to stay in control through nuanced map movements and careful coordination.

With this emphasis on control, EG rely on their offlaner Universe to keep their tempo up. On a wide variety of heroes, from Faceless Void to Tidehunter to Nature’s Prophet, he is the active force on the map that opens up space for his other cores. Backing him up is Sumail, whose stable of heroes has recently expanded to yet more aggressive options such as Batrider and Zeus. EG abuse Sumail’s explosive playmaking potential on these heroes to dominate the game and keep their enemies off balance. While Arteezy is rarely too far from the action, it remains his role to secure the late game. EG have come a long way from the days when “whendidegthrowlast.com” required constant updating, and they end games in a very deliberate manner. For a team that attempts to seize control so aggressively, they show remarkable restraint going high-ground.

EG are also known as slow starters in tournaments. ppd’s unerring ability to adapt to the meta of a tournament usually requires a few games to get going. EG also have historically had difficulty taking non-elimination games seriously, regardless of the stage. Once their back is to the wall, however, all bets are off.

PlayerK/D/ATeam GoldMost Played
Arteezy6.4/3.9/8.028%
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
Sumail7.0/4.5/9.024%
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
Universe3.8/3.0/9.220%
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
Fear3.1/4.1/10.815%
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
PPD2.3/5.3/8.613%
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


Players

[image loading]

Arteezy is the newest addition to this EG roster, replacing Aui_2000 in the weeks following EG’s TI5 victory. At the time, some called him the LeBron James of Dota, a comparison that makes it clear how much of a star he is. Not only is he brilliant mechanically, his personality has attracted thousands upon thousands of fans. Despite his widespread acclaim and insane popularity, Arteezy lacks the TI victory that the rest of his team shares; the Shanghai Major gives him a chance to, if not fix that, then mitigate it.
[image loading]

When Sumail was picked up by Evil Geniuses shortly before the Dota Asia Championships a year ago, few had even heard of him. Winning that tournament (and later TI5) in spectacular fashion catapulted his name into the discussion for “best mid player” faster than any player before. More aggressive than many of the farm-oriented mid players of that patch, Sumail is always on the hunt. What sets him apart is his ability to exert that aggression while maintaining top-tier farm. While he has had to adjust his hero pool in recent months, EG’s results have proved that he is more than up to the task. Controversy over some comments that he made regarding China is marring his return to the grounds where he launched his career so explosively a year ago. Can his gameplay do the talking once again?
[image loading]

While many think of Fear as the old man of the EG team, Universe has been playing competitive Dota 2 just as long. One of the elite cadre to attend every TI (although one only as a coach/sub), Universe works his magic in the offlane with little help. Despite being the star of the famous 6 Million Dollar Echo Slam, Universe isn’t known for his flashy plays but instead for stability. While he was often described as “underrated” in the past, these days, nobody is sleeping on Universe. EG will be relying on him to perform in Shanghai as he has so many times in the past.
[image loading]

Fear has been a member of EG Dota since the very inception of the team shortly after TI1, and has been the face of the franchise ever since. Other players may have more fans or make flashier plays, but the length of Fear’s career speaks for itself. Up until the addition of Arteezy, Fear played the carry role, but now he brings his flexibility and endless hero pool to the four-position support role. The transition wasn’t entirely painless, but Fear seems to have finally settled in and EG’s results show it. While you’ll often see the rest of the team on a short list of “the best” heroes that they are comfortable on, Fear regularly plays 10 different heroes in 15 games.
[image loading]

ppd is the brains behind the EG team, no doubt. History has shown that success on the biggest stage is dependant more on brilliant leadership and cohesion than it is on individual play. Every TI championship is attributable to a legendary captain: Puppey, Faith, s4, xiao8 and ppd. While you could argue that Faith might not be on quite the same level as the others, few would dispute the fact that the other 4 are among the greatest captains the game has known. They were surrounded by talented players, no doubt, but many other teams had the talent as well. As such, ppd represents the critical element that distinguishes EG from their competition. Some describe his play as lackluster, but that isn’t even fair criticism. His style of absolute sacrifice requires unbelievable skill to contribute so much with so little, and ppd pulls it off better than anyone.

How to beat - eg

EG make a strong case for being the best team on earth, but every team is beatable. One of EG’s greatest strengths- ppd’s ability to read deeper into a tournament’s meta than any other captain- can be turned against them in the right situations. And while attempting to defeat EG in a pure contest of skill is generally futile, their up-tempo style can be exploited. Mostly, one must rely upon EG to make mistakes. This is always a risky strategy, but it can certainly pay off.

ppd’s ability to read each tournament’s unique meta as it develops is astounding. His understanding leads to many drafting choices that look strange to the casual observer, but almost always turn out brilliantly. However, sometimes he goes too deep and loses sight of some basic tenets. The clearest example of this is the Upper Bracket Finals of TI5 against CDEC where apparent frustration at losing game 1 brought about potentially the biggest outdraft of the tournament. Giving CDEC their favoured Bounty Hunter support with the intention of warping his draft entirely to counter it backfired spectacularly when CDEC opted for the more old-school offlane BH and EG lost in barely 20 minutes. While ppd is a savvy captain and tough to outfox, things like this as well as a few surprise tools like Huskar and Broodmother have the potential to steal games.

Stylistically, EG is best countered with a specific gameplan. First, one cannot afford to lose the laning stage against EG. A draw, or even a careful trade can work, but allowing EG to run away with the lanes is a recipe for disaster. If the midgame arrives safely, the next goal must be to take control away from EG. The easiest way to do this is to spread the map and deny EG the ability to choose their fights. This does not guarantee victory, but it opens up an avenue to a successful lategame if inevitability is not on EG’s side. If this sounds difficult, it’s because it is, and very few teams succeed at vanquishing EG without some luck on their side. EG especially seem to be vulnerable to Lone Druid, with a depressing record against the hero in their recent finals losses to both Alliance and EHOME. This makes sense, of course, as Lone Druid is a very strong split pusher and laner. That said, it would be strange to see ppd come into a tournament as large as the Shanghai Major with neither a strategy to defeat the hero nor a willingness to ban it.

Lastly, EG have been known to cave to extreme early aggression in the past. While that kind of play is always risky and can backfire (as was the case with Sumail’s legendary Storm Spirit performance at DAC), EG don’t always respond that well. Even though nobody likes to take such a risk in an important tournament like the Shanghai Major, a small chance is better than none at all.

Writer: Sn0_Man
Editor: Heyoka, tehh4ck3r, Julmust
Graphics: Nixer
Images:
Hero Icons: Liquipedia
Player Pictures: EG[1]
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Dysisa
Profile Joined July 2014
Sweden2376 Posts
February 22 2016 14:57 GMT
#2
Even though EG are on a distinct cold streak, having won only one tournament since TI5

False
fuck dota 2 | "i don't like ppd, and i really look forward to one day beating that motherfucker" -Swindlemelonzz, my personal hero
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
February 22 2016 14:58 GMT
#3
Yes I know the pictures are great :D Boyband-Arteezy, Mugshot-Fear, and just... Boyscout-PPD
AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 15:01:14
February 22 2016 14:59 GMT
#4
On February 22 2016 23:57 Dysisa wrote:
Show nested quote +
Even though EG are on a distinct cold streak, having won only one tournament since TI5

False

Huh, what did we miss? 2nd at SL/iLeague, 2nd at MDL, won the summit, 3rd in frankfurt?

Edit: Guess you mean CD 3.0. I don't really think it should count, but I'll update the text to reflect this better
AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
Furikawari
Profile Joined February 2014
France2522 Posts
February 22 2016 15:09 GMT
#5
I don't agree with Sumail's recap, I feel like EG did good since TI5 in spite of a declining Sumail. He has not find his way in the meta imo. I must say I didnt see anything from CD 3 (I don't know if he did better or not) but I'm not sure it invalidates this anyway considering the format.
Dysisa
Profile Joined July 2014
Sweden2376 Posts
February 22 2016 15:11 GMT
#6
On February 22 2016 23:59 Julmust wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2016 23:57 Dysisa wrote:
Even though EG are on a distinct cold streak, having won only one tournament since TI5

False

Huh, what did we miss? 2nd at SL/iLeague, 2nd at MDL, won the summit, 3rd in frankfurt?

Edit: Guess you mean CD 3.0. I don't really think it should count, but I'll update the text to reflect this better

Yeah, I meant CD 3.0. You can argue the legitimacy of the tournament, but to discount it entirely I think is very unfair. A win is still a win at the end of the day. It would be like discounting the WCA win from Alliance, the way I see it.
fuck dota 2 | "i don't like ppd, and i really look forward to one day beating that motherfucker" -Swindlemelonzz, my personal hero
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6591 Posts
February 22 2016 15:18 GMT
#7
I'm pretty sure this was written before the finals were played in the CD tournament so it wasn't really ignored it just wasn't finished at the time and ended before this went out
LiquidDota Staff
Kleinmuuhg
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Vanuatu4091 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 15:59:19
February 22 2016 15:58 GMT
#8
I cannot read the article
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

but reading the article-preview on the main page i am a bit confused
even ignoring CD, how is finishing 2nd 2nd 3rd in 3 important tournaments anything else but ultra impressive and consistent? eg are the absolute favorites coming into this and definitely not on a "cold streak".
objectively they are one of the very few, if not the only, team that has been consistent through the last patches, independent from currently favoured heros.
and im not even an eg fanboy lol
This is our town, scrub
lxginverse
Profile Joined May 2008
Monaco1506 Posts
February 22 2016 16:09 GMT
#9
not really in relation to the article but more on the captains, isnt it that zhou captained ig during ti2?
fromis_9 enjoyer
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 16:37:14
February 22 2016 16:37 GMT
#10
On February 22 2016 23:59 Julmust wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2016 23:57 Dysisa wrote:
Even though EG are on a distinct cold streak, having won only one tournament since TI5

False

Huh, what did we miss? 2nd at SL/iLeague, 2nd at MDL, won the summit, 3rd in frankfurt?

Edit: Guess you mean CD 3.0. I don't really think it should count, but I'll update the text to reflect this better


I personally just don't see the argument for how they are on a cold streak. Only EHOME has matched consistency that EG has had post TI5. You could maybe make the argument that they aren't on a hot streak, but definitely not a cold streak. A cold streak would be team Secrekt.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51456 Posts
February 22 2016 16:40 GMT
#11
:D thanks for this read was great.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
February 22 2016 16:56 GMT
#12
I would disagree slightly on the "how to beat" section. EG's biggest weakness is that their team cohesion is extraordinarily poor compared to other teams near their level of play. They win teamfights by having no more than two or three of their heroes coordinate together at a time, and rely primarily on the individual skill of their cores to pull out wins. When they face up against the other team in a 5 on 5 where they can't split things up into manageable groups, they tend to lose fights very badly. Teams with higher team cohesion, such as CDEC, Alliance, and VP, tend to be able to beat EG when they force out chaotic teamfights that they can perform better in. EG was able to beat the first and the last of these primarily by banning out the heroes that allowed them to create that type of teamfight, while they haven't yet figured out how to stop Alliance from doing the same.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
Gaial
Profile Joined May 2014
United States313 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 17:13:10
February 22 2016 17:08 GMT
#13
How is EG on a cold streak when they have top 3'd in 7 of the 8 tournaments they attended since TI.

No other team can say that.

On February 23 2016 01:56 Acritter wrote:
I would disagree slightly on the "how to beat" section. EG's biggest weakness is that their team cohesion is extraordinarily poor compared to other teams near their level of play. They win teamfights by having no more than two or three of their heroes coordinate together at a time, and rely primarily on the individual skill of their cores to pull out wins. When they face up against the other team in a 5 on 5 where they can't split things up into manageable groups, they tend to lose fights very badly. Teams with higher team cohesion, such as CDEC, Alliance, and VP, tend to be able to beat EG when they force out chaotic teamfights that they can perform better in. EG was able to beat the first and the last of these primarily by banning out the heroes that allowed them to create that type of teamfight, while they haven't yet figured out how to stop Alliance from doing the same.


I simply disagree, I think EG has some of the best team fighting skills of anyone. When you look at how they come back from impossible odds, or all their insane high ground defenses, it is on the back of exceptional team fighting.

What you described can be attributed to all top tier teams.
SwallowTheSun
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada53 Posts
February 22 2016 17:13 GMT
#14
PPD is a smart cookie indeed but he has said himself he is just one of the most effective communicator/facillitators out there. EG as a team has insane game knowledge and experience and they draft as a team. Each player is integral to their successful drafting imo.
Anyways, hoping for a great showing from the boys in blue!
Go EG!
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10653 Posts
February 22 2016 17:13 GMT
#15
How to beat EG 101: Beat them game 1, hope they tilt.
Skol
Fleetfeet
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Canada2521 Posts
February 22 2016 17:19 GMT
#16
Hi Universe is the best player in the world THE UNIVERSE doesn't pale next to anything ok thanks just wanted to let you know.

PS he's the best
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
February 22 2016 17:35 GMT
#17
On February 23 2016 02:08 Gaial wrote:
How is EG on a cold streak when they have top 3'd in 7 of the 8 tournaments they attended since TI.

No other team can say that.


For me it's about expectations. It's like when VG were really hot, or Secret. You simply expected them to win everything. Anything but first place was a disappointment! I don't know if that's what Sn0 wanted to say, but that's what I feel like
AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
LionheartDOTE
Profile Joined July 2014
United States3 Posts
February 22 2016 17:45 GMT
#18
How many Grand Finals has EG played in since TI? Excluding the Frankfurt Major, I believe you could make the case that they are on a hot streak since TI. Who else has that sort of success with a major roster change, and a big meta change following a TI victory?

I think for them to be on a cold streak they would have to have a very poor placing in 2+ tournaments.
"Man, this game is hard..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 22 2016 18:03 GMT
#19
On February 23 2016 02:35 Julmust wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2016 02:08 Gaial wrote:
How is EG on a cold streak when they have top 3'd in 7 of the 8 tournaments they attended since TI.

No other team can say that.


For me it's about expectations. It's like when VG were really hot, or Secret. You simply expected them to win everything. Anything but first place was a disappointment! I don't know if that's what Sn0 wanted to say, but that's what I feel like

I feel the expectation that they would win everything is up for debate and many readers have good arguments why they find that to be unreasonable.

Personally, I see dota as more competitive than it has ever been and any team that makes the top 4 of a major could take it all. Also with the number of events going on, teams get tired, have jet lag and all the other things that cause a team to have an off weekend. Expecting everyone to be on their A game for months straight is setting your expectations to high.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
spudde123
Profile Joined February 2012
4814 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 18:09:30
February 22 2016 18:08 GMT
#20
On February 23 2016 02:35 Julmust wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2016 02:08 Gaial wrote:
How is EG on a cold streak when they have top 3'd in 7 of the 8 tournaments they attended since TI.

No other team can say that.


For me it's about expectations. It's like when VG were really hot, or Secret. You simply expected them to win everything. Anything but first place was a disappointment! I don't know if that's what Sn0 wanted to say, but that's what I feel like


After TI when the lineup was formed there were some people suggesting that noone can touch EG, I guess compared to such expectations they have not lived up to them and are on a cold streak. But if being on the podium close to every event and winning one every once in a while means being on a cold streak, then EG has been on a cold streak ever since PPD etc. joined, which sounds a bit funny given that they've been the most successful team in the west.
saocyn
Profile Joined July 2011
United States937 Posts
February 22 2016 18:46 GMT
#21
For the sake of credibility, I kind of cringe at the fact a writer on staff has the foresight and knowledge on how to "beat" another team. This is going to give you guys flack when you write something that most do not agree with. (This is not an attack on the article writer btw, just some input) I think you would be better off renaming "How To Beat (Said Team)" to A few key points in winning vs (Team)

This way you can make points that you deem valid while accounting for the fact it may not account for the whole picture or writer isn't as credible / noteworthy.
kblueriver
Profile Joined July 2012
Argentina430 Posts
February 22 2016 18:47 GMT
#22
Great article, though I agree with some comments that it's not 5-man coordination but 3-man coordination what wins teamfights for EG.

Non-related: "Every TI championship is attributable to a legendary captain: Puppey, Faith, s4, xiao8 and ppd"
Somewhere I read it was ArtStyle who captained TI1 Na'Vi. Can anyone shed some light on this please? Ty
Your ever humble pwnage provider
Gaial
Profile Joined May 2014
United States313 Posts
February 22 2016 19:31 GMT
#23
@Sn0_Man
It's a good article, it just doesn't seem that way because we are picking apart 1 sentence you wrote, but the rest of it is very nice. Keep it up
bumwithagun
Profile Joined January 2011
United States153 Posts
February 22 2016 20:36 GMT
#24
1. Eg has been the most consistent western team post TI5. How is a string of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places a cold streak in this day and age?

2. If there have been any shaky spots with EG its been coordinating early game rotations and sumail's hero pool.
lolnoty
Profile Joined December 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 21:16:18
February 22 2016 21:13 GMT
#25
On February 23 2016 05:36 bumwithagun wrote:
1. Eg has been the most consistent western team post TI5. How is a string of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places a cold streak in this day and age?

2. If there have been any shaky spots with EG its been coordinating early game rotations and sumail's hero pool.

What mid are you comparing him to for #2? He has one of the largest hero pools I know of for a mid. That's after they stopped picking him some mids and give them to RTZ for farm priority too. Ignoring the mid position, he's one of the few mids that gets thrown to offlane/safelane on the regular with offlane or tempo heroes. He's become extremely flexible for PPD's drafting.
"PPD is a very angry guy. He controls us." - Arteezy
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 22 2016 21:19 GMT
#26
Its also seems that PPD feel that the it is easier for the mid to recover from a bad lane than the safe lane, so he counts on Sumail to break even or recover from bad match ups. And considering how hard teams gun for RTZ, I can’t blame PPD.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
MaCRo.gg
Profile Joined June 2015
Korea (South)860 Posts
February 22 2016 22:02 GMT
#27
Social media is important in marketing yourself to a certain point, but when you get to a certain level as an athlete you should stop or control interactions with social media. Connecting with your fans are important, but streaming and twitter are distractions that just attract a circus. I like how the article ended that Sumail nonsense with "let their play do the talking."
theqat
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States2856 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 22:38:50
February 22 2016 22:34 GMT
#28
streaming is not a "distraction" it's a primary revenue stream . . .

On February 23 2016 03:46 saocyn wrote:
For the sake of credibility, I kind of cringe at the fact a writer on staff has the foresight and knowledge on how to "beat" another team. This is going to give you guys flack when you write something that most do not agree with. (This is not an attack on the article writer btw, just some input) I think you would be better off renaming "How To Beat (Said Team)" to A few key points in winning vs (Team)

This way you can make points that you deem valid while accounting for the fact it may not account for the whole picture or writer isn't as credible / noteworthy.


i think you meant to say you cringe at the "idea" in the first sentence, not the fact. after all your suggestion is based on the idea that they do not, in fact, know how to beat a team
nayumi
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia6499 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 22:40:44
February 22 2016 22:38 GMT
#29
Every TI championship is attributable to a legendary captain: Puppey, Faith, s4, xiao8 and ppd.


Wasn't Navi in TI1 more Artstyle than Puppey?
Sugoi monogatari onii-chan!
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6225 Posts
February 22 2016 23:26 GMT
#30
I'm pretty confident that Universe doesn't pale in comparison to anyone.
elagrion
Profile Joined April 2010
Ukraine422 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-22 23:53:55
February 22 2016 23:53 GMT
#31
"Every TI championship is attributable to a legendary captain: Puppey, Faith, s4, xiao8 and ppd".
Artstyle was the captain of TI1 Na'Vi, cmon, writers are supposed to know that their stuff, right?
Puppey became legendary captain later (pre-TI2 and TI2).
Everything is a remix.
lolnoty
Profile Joined December 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-23 00:11:05
February 23 2016 00:09 GMT
#32
"Up until the addition of Arteezy, Fear played the carry role, but now he brings his flexibility and endless hero pool to the four-position support role."

I can recall offhand Fear playing carry, mid, 4, and 5 if we're talking about every EG iteration before now. I don't think he's played offlane (actual foflane, not just playing in the lane) but I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.
"PPD is a very angry guy. He controls us." - Arteezy
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
February 23 2016 00:19 GMT
#33
On February 23 2016 01:56 Acritter wrote:
I would disagree slightly on the "how to beat" section. EG's biggest weakness is that their team cohesion is extraordinarily poor compared to other teams near their level of play. They win teamfights by having no more than two or three of their heroes coordinate together at a time, and rely primarily on the individual skill of their cores to pull out wins. When they face up against the other team in a 5 on 5 where they can't split things up into manageable groups, they tend to lose fights very badly. Teams with higher team cohesion, such as CDEC, Alliance, and VP, tend to be able to beat EG when they force out chaotic teamfights that they can perform better in. EG was able to beat the first and the last of these primarily by banning out the heroes that allowed them to create that type of teamfight, while they haven't yet figured out how to stop Alliance from doing the same.


This is the reason teams seem to "feed wins" to EG. EG are monsters in 2-3 Man pairings. But it doesn't matter what pairing. (And any of their 1 through 4 can win a lane solo.) But if you can get them grouped up as a hard 5 man, you've got a better chance. Though the best "trick" is to get ppd into putting Sumail on an initiator then dragging it late-game. All mids have looked pretty wonky at the last two major LANs because of the current state of the mid matchup, and while Sumail can play initiator heroes just fine, they haven't been generally able to put Universe on the right hero to compliment it. They end up with too little damage if they get to late-game.

The other thing is to throw EG something really screwy in the drafting phase or hope they make a mistake. Old Chicken's drafting approach at the MDL final was to decide what to do after the first picks were made, then try to hide the approach as long as possible. (And it helped that ppd gave him Earth Spirit, at MDL. Yeah. They almost won that game though.)

With the current state of EG, you have to bring everything to the table and play at the ragged edge to beat them during Elimination time. As we've seen, that ain't easy.
Dracolich70
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark3820 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-23 01:40:09
February 23 2016 01:10 GMT
#34
They don't know how to split push, when up against the masters of it; OG and [A]. Think their strongest suit other than high skilled players is they don't really have a defined style, and PPD just copies his way through the tournament as the team back against the wall does 2-1s, in games that can easily go either way, until he has found their(teams/strategies) weakness. They have incredible resiliance, and tough to beat. Think the best way to beat them is rolling over them in 18-22 mins.

They are very tough to lock down, as they have 4 players that are good at farming/getting farm, and be significant.

I have seen many matches where they make ton of mistakes, and yet come out on top, because other teams aren't as effective to capitalize on these mistakes, and give them a finger, you hand them the hand.

Not sure why PPD is regarded so highly. His pos 6 approach, albeit probably needed with this greedy team, makes him irrelevant more often than not. He picks healers for himself, but often he is dying on end, because he has nothing, as opposed to other supports. Without the team to carry him, and Fear to share the responsibilty, his impact is minimal. His drafting ranges from off, to excellent. To me the only hero he does very well, is Winter Wyvern, which he has learned from watching CIS dota. He can't play micro-intensive heroes, and that is a weak point.
LiangHao
Dracolich70
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark3820 Posts
February 23 2016 01:18 GMT
#35
On February 23 2016 06:13 lolnoty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2016 05:36 bumwithagun wrote:
1. Eg has been the most consistent western team post TI5. How is a string of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places a cold streak in this day and age?

2. If there have been any shaky spots with EG its been coordinating early game rotations and sumail's hero pool.

What mid are you comparing him to for #2? He has one of the largest hero pools I know of for a mid. That's after they stopped picking him some mids and give them to RTZ for farm priority too. Ignoring the mid position, he's one of the few mids that gets thrown to offlane/safelane on the regular with offlane or tempo heroes. He's become extremely flexible for PPD's drafting.
Sumail comes to his right with mobile heroes. When not, he does well, but is not as significant, and it is more Universe that is the player they utilize, than Sumail.
LiangHao
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
February 23 2016 01:39 GMT
#36
I think we need some justice for julmust with an EG sixth.
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WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
February 23 2016 06:46 GMT
#37
Probably worth noting that EG's 2 wins (Summit and CD) before this tournament are better than their pre-Frankfurt score (0 wins), their pre-TI5 score (1 win, DotaPit), arguably their pre-DAC score (3 wins, but no results post-team breakup), and basically the same as their pre-TI4 score (Summit and D2L).

Very much a team you want to bet against when people think they'll dominate, and bet for when people think they're slipping.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Fleetfeet
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Canada2521 Posts
February 23 2016 10:46 GMT
#38
On February 23 2016 03:46 saocyn wrote:
For the sake of credibility, I kind of cringe at the fact a writer on staff has the foresight and knowledge on how to "beat" another team. This is going to give you guys flack when you write something that most do not agree with. (This is not an attack on the article writer btw, just some input) I think you would be better off renaming "How To Beat (Said Team)" to A few key points in winning vs (Team)

This way you can make points that you deem valid while accounting for the fact it may not account for the whole picture or writer isn't as credible / noteworthy.


I feel strongly as though these segments are included as points of interest, and not literally advice on how one should go about beating this team. It's more like a "Hey, when you're watching games against EG, pay attention to how the game goes if their strategy is undermined!" than something Sn0 is hoping pro teams read.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-23 16:24:16
February 23 2016 16:23 GMT
#39
They had several weaknesses going into the previous tournament - PPD not being able to play Chen that well, Universe not being especially effective on a farm off, etc. But with a month to practice and think about the game, I want to see what they came up with. They've always been the best team at attacking an existing set of strategies.
scorpkx
Profile Joined December 2015
Australia19 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-24 11:08:27
February 24 2016 00:56 GMT
#40
On February 23 2016 10:10 Dracolich70 wrote:
They don't know how to split push, when up against the masters of it; OG and [A]. Think their strongest suit other than high skilled players is they don't really have a defined style, and PPD just copies his way through the tournament as the team back against the wall does 2-1s, in games that can easily go either way, until he has found their(teams/strategies) weakness. They have incredible resiliance, and tough to beat. Think the best way to beat them is rolling over them in 18-22 mins.

They are very tough to lock down, as they have 4 players that are good at farming/getting farm, and be significant.

I have seen many matches where they make ton of mistakes, and yet come out on top, because other teams aren't as effective to capitalize on these mistakes, and give them a finger, you hand them the hand.

Not sure why PPD is regarded so highly. His pos 6 approach, albeit probably needed with this greedy team, makes him irrelevant more often than not. He picks healers for himself, but often he is dying on end, because he has nothing, as opposed to other supports. Without the team to carry him, and Fear to share the responsibilty, his impact is minimal. His drafting ranges from off, to excellent. To me the only hero he does very well, is Winter Wyvern, which he has learned from watching CIS dota. He can't play micro-intensive heroes, and that is a weak point.


i disagree with the ppd part. ppd averages 1-2 more deaths per game than the cores on his team (who average about 3-5 deaths per game collectively) while playing his typical position 6 (aka position 10) role which is very impressive since most support players with as low NW as ppd tend to be liabilities more often then not. i don't think it makes him irrelevant, his heroes are usually very defensive in nature, scale well into the later stages of the game and tend to require exp and levels more so than gold. ppd has some of the best positioning and warding i have seen from a support player and often itemises perfectly given the little farm he accumulates. chen is the only micro hero he doesn't play well i would say (but chen is not a very good hero when played as a hard 5), his enchantress and beastmaster as actually quite good even if he hasn't played them recently.

ppd is by no means the best support player in terms of skill but he is definitely solid enough in his performances to support the cores on his team. his WW was spectacular, definitely, but he has had incredible performances on heroes like CM, treant, shaker and particularly lion (who he made look OP during DAC last year).
scorpkx
Profile Joined December 2015
Australia19 Posts
February 24 2016 01:08 GMT
#41
On February 24 2016 01:23 Azarkon wrote:
They had several weaknesses going into the previous tournament - PPD not being able to play Chen that well, Universe not being especially effective on a farm off, etc. But with a month to practice and think about the game, I want to see what they came up with. They've always been the best team at attacking an existing set of strategies.


ill be honest it was very strange for me to see ppd on chen instead of fear. chen is not a very good hero if you play him as a hard 5 (which ppd often does) primarily because you want to get mek and other items (rather than wards and smokes) on him asap. also fear so far has been playing the farming 4 position and jungler (enigma/sk/mirana) and he also has some of the best micro-skills on EG. i think ppd chen at MDL was more so an experiment than anything else. i think if EG pick chen at shanghai it will almost certainly be fear playing it.
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