On October 01 2020 05:16 harodihg wrote: not to take away from Secret, nor your post, as their current dominance is pretty strong and great, and Puppey's continued success is in itself a marvel, but I think the history of China's dominance in dota gets extremely overlooked, especially with their falling flat over recent years
in dota 1 times, virtually every global tournament would get DOMINATED by Chinese players. it was a pretty open thing to have teams from EU/NA going into them to even say that they're not competing for first as EHOME or some other power house would be guaranteed to have it
this is kind of what made the magic of the first International such a monumental moment. not only was dota 2 extremely new, made into it's own standalone game, and being backed by Valve, which had a very illustrious reputation at the time, but the prize pool was unheard of for the time being over a million dollars. most people didn't believe it to be real.
that, coupled with the fact that Chinese teams had actual team houses, salaries, and would show up to tournaments with additional people like managers, etc. all in matching jerseys, and had consistently destroyed every other team for years made it so phenomenal to see the usual suspects from EU/NA showing up in jeans, crawling out of local LAN cafes and parents basements to compete, actually do well
when speaking of strictly dominance, Secret's results speak for themselves, but i think the story of Na`Vi, the underdogs of not just a few months, nor a year, but since the incarnation of 'competitive' dota taking on the elite powerhouse chinese super teams that formed and not only holding their own, but picking pudge mid (which wasn't as big of a joke as it is today, but still VERY much considered 'trollish') and WINNING really brought the story home
it's a shame that there's not more information and sources available for the old dota 1 tournament results and dominance of CN available, as i think TI1 is easily one of the coolest events, if not the coolest, that ill ever witness
it reminds me very much of the movie Dodgeball where the Purple Cobras, who were supremely dominant and crushed the competition for years on end showed up in matching uniforms and wound up being taken down by just a motley crew
Yeah agreed. I remember working some office job during TI2 and watching the games on a computer in the office instead of doing work. The entire narrative was just Na`Vi vs China and it was amazing watching them take on basically every Chinese team that would wipe the floor with any non-chinese team during the main stage games. Stopping LGD's flawless run. There was still such a strong belief that China outclassed every team other than Na`Vi and they backed that up at like every event as you said. Such a great time watching those games.
On October 01 2020 05:16 harodihg wrote: not to take away from Secret, nor your post, as their current dominance is pretty strong and great, and Puppey's continued success is in itself a marvel, but I think the history of China's dominance in dota gets extremely overlooked, especially with their falling flat over recent years
in dota 1 times, virtually every global tournament would get DOMINATED by Chinese players. it was a pretty open thing to have teams from EU/NA going into them to even say that they're not competing for first as EHOME or some other power house would be guaranteed to have it
this is kind of what made the magic of the first International such a monumental moment. not only was dota 2 extremely new, made into it's own standalone game, and being backed by Valve, which had a very illustrious reputation at the time, but the prize pool was unheard of for the time being over a million dollars. most people didn't believe it to be real.
that, coupled with the fact that Chinese teams had actual team houses, salaries, and would show up to tournaments with additional people like managers, etc. all in matching jerseys, and had consistently destroyed every other team for years made it so phenomenal to see the usual suspects from EU/NA showing up in jeans, crawling out of local LAN cafes and parents basements to compete, actually do well
when speaking of strictly dominance, Secret's results speak for themselves, but i think the story of Na`Vi, the underdogs of not just a few months, nor a year, but since the incarnation of 'competitive' dota taking on the elite powerhouse chinese super teams that formed and not only holding their own, but picking pudge mid (which wasn't as big of a joke as it is today, but still VERY much considered 'trollish') and WINNING really brought the story home
it's a shame that there's not more information and sources available for the old dota 1 tournament results and dominance of CN available, as i think TI1 is easily one of the coolest events, if not the coolest, that ill ever witness
it reminds me very much of the movie Dodgeball where the Purple Cobras, who were supremely dominant and crushed the competition for years on end showed up in matching uniforms and wound up being taken down by just a motley crew
I started following pro Dota before Dota 2 was even announced so I feel somewhat qualified to talk about this.
The thing is, there were practically no international LANs in DotA. I think there were maybe just like ESWC where the Chinese and western teams met. I don't think Chinese teams even attended Dreamhacks. And those were always absolutely dominated by the Chinese teams. Then there were some Chinese LANs that sometimes had a western team. For example WDC in 2010 when DTS knocked the favorites EHOME out. Then there were these Russian LANs that really only had Russian teams and the odd western team and no Chinese teams. I remember Ceb's and Sockha's French teams always going there, basically paying the entire trip out of their own pocket, that was very cool.
What I want to say is that people often present the Chinese DotA domination as some dynasty spanning years and dozens of tournaments. When in reality it was actually like 5 LAN tournaments over a 3 year period. It's mostly just nostalgia speaking. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, I remember when TI1 was announced, Kuroky was a guest at DJWheat's show (I think, may have been a different general esports show) and there he said that yes, Chinese teams are much stronger in DotA, but they haven't really transitioned well into Dota 2 and that he thinks either MYM or Na'Vi are gonna win the tournament.
I think people in general over-estimate the DotA days. At this point, Dota 2 is older than DotA. Eul published the first map in 2003, in 2004 Guinsoo took over until 2005. 2005 IceFrog took over DotA and in 2011 the first TI happened. And now we're almost in 2021.
On October 02 2020 01:10 cecek wrote: At this point, Dota 2 is older than DotA. Eul published the first map in 2003, in 2004 Guinsoo took over until 2005. 2005 IceFrog took over DotA and in 2011 the first TI happened. And now we're almost in 2021.
This is the sort of statistic that makes me feel so old.
On October 01 2020 05:16 harodihg wrote: not to take away from Secret, nor your post, as their current dominance is pretty strong and great, and Puppey's continued success is in itself a marvel, but I think the history of China's dominance in dota gets extremely overlooked, especially with their falling flat over recent years
in dota 1 times, virtually every global tournament would get DOMINATED by Chinese players. it was a pretty open thing to have teams from EU/NA going into them to even say that they're not competing for first as EHOME or some other power house would be guaranteed to have it
this is kind of what made the magic of the first International such a monumental moment. not only was dota 2 extremely new, made into it's own standalone game, and being backed by Valve, which had a very illustrious reputation at the time, but the prize pool was unheard of for the time being over a million dollars. most people didn't believe it to be real.
that, coupled with the fact that Chinese teams had actual team houses, salaries, and would show up to tournaments with additional people like managers, etc. all in matching jerseys, and had consistently destroyed every other team for years made it so phenomenal to see the usual suspects from EU/NA showing up in jeans, crawling out of local LAN cafes and parents basements to compete, actually do well
when speaking of strictly dominance, Secret's results speak for themselves, but i think the story of Na`Vi, the underdogs of not just a few months, nor a year, but since the incarnation of 'competitive' dota taking on the elite powerhouse chinese super teams that formed and not only holding their own, but picking pudge mid (which wasn't as big of a joke as it is today, but still VERY much considered 'trollish') and WINNING really brought the story home
it's a shame that there's not more information and sources available for the old dota 1 tournament results and dominance of CN available, as i think TI1 is easily one of the coolest events, if not the coolest, that ill ever witness
it reminds me very much of the movie Dodgeball where the Purple Cobras, who were supremely dominant and crushed the competition for years on end showed up in matching uniforms and wound up being taken down by just a motley crew
I started following pro Dota before Dota 2 was even announced so I feel somewhat qualified to talk about this.
The thing is, there were practically no international LANs in DotA. I think there were maybe just like ESWC where the Chinese and western teams met. I don't think Chinese teams even attended Dreamhacks. And those were always absolutely dominated by the Chinese teams. Then there were some Chinese LANs that sometimes had a western team. For example WDC in 2010 when DTS knocked the favorites EHOME out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9slVcJrQ9Ec Then there were these Russian LANs that really only had Russian teams and the odd western team and no Chinese teams. I remember Ceb's and Sockha's French teams always going there, basically paying the entire trip out of their own pocket, that was very cool.
What I want to say is that people often present the Chinese DotA domination as some dynasty spanning years and dozens of tournaments. When in reality it was actually like 5 LAN tournaments over a 3 year period. It's mostly just nostalgia speaking. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, I remember when TI1 was announced, Kuroky was a guest at DJWheat's show (I think, may have been a different general esports show) and there he said that yes, Chinese teams are much stronger in DotA, but they haven't really transitioned well into Dota 2 and that he thinks either MYM or Na'Vi are gonna win the tournament.
I think people in general over-estimate the DotA days. At this point, Dota 2 is older than DotA. Eul published the first map in 2003, in 2004 Guinsoo took over until 2005. 2005 IceFrog took over DotA and in 2011 the first TI happened. And now we're almost in 2021.
China was certainly the best at the time but I think it was primarily due to lack of a healthy scene in DotA outside of China; HoN, LoL, and even Starcraft 2 took away a lot of players and there was just less and less interest in pro DotA outside of China during late 2008-2011. It was still an incredibly amateur scene and there wasn't a lot of money to go around for players to travel. By the time China emerged Dreamhack wasn't a big enough event for Chinese teams to come out. True esports was isolated to few countries in those days, and Chinese DotA was one of the better situations. All of that is primarily why non-Chinese teams weren't as good then, though I think the extremely stable and cheese unfriendly meta helped their dominance too.
About TI1, of the Chinese teams, only EHOME took Dota2 seriously and actually spent time in the game, and that's why they got second place despite being one of the worst teams in Chinese Dota1 at the time. DK was one of the best Chinese teams at the time and they didn't attend because according to Burning, they didn't think the money was real, and neither did LGD.
So most of the Chinese teams that went to the tournament had no idea what the meta for the game was because the meta and mechanics were different and often buggy. Some examples like M5 literally lost a game because Gem didn't work correctly and NaVi favoring Viper because they knew his skills applied before the projectile even hit. A lot of people forget that some skills in Dota1 like Blink didn't even work if you didn't explore the area first. There were so many issues with TI1 I don't think it really was a great show of skill, but it was a great show of Dota2 the game.
I honestly think TI2 was a far better indicator of what made NaVi special because China took the event seriously that time. I actually think Puppey has the best claim to greatest Dota player ever even disregarding TI1.
On October 02 2020 01:10 cecek wrote: At this point, Dota 2 is older than DotA. Eul published the first map in 2003, in 2004 Guinsoo took over until 2005. 2005 IceFrog took over DotA and in 2011 the first TI happened. And now we're almost in 2021.
This is the sort of statistic that makes me feel so old.
oh my god
I have fond memories of being an MYM fanboy back in the dota 1 days and them playing in one of the few international lans that mattered (don't remember what its name was) in, like 2009, and getting absolutely stomped by EHOME (i think) and me just being like 'who the fuck are EHOME what is this shit' lol
I had an infection several weeks ago and it's worn off, but then I got fluid stuck in my ear, and now it turns out my middle ear still has some swelling and I have slight hearing loss in it. So I've been put on steroids, but it's a bad idea to read a lot of current news while on steroids lol.
I've been playing ranked LoL the last couple of days, and I came to the realization it's the first time I've ever really played in the trench tier of a moba. I calibrated fairly high in dota when ranked came out, and before ranked I mostly played in stacks with medium/high tier players so I never really had to play in the actual trenches.
Anyway I'm currently making my way through bronze in league and it's the most interesting place I've ever seen.
I haven't played LoL in years, but I do remember how awful the promotion system used to be. Even my brother, who was legit Diamond4-5 couldn't win some of my promo series, it was hilarious.
It's definitely a strange game. My first season (back) to playing I hit gold, which is apparently like 2.5/3k, but oh my god I don't think I could get better than that without a significant investment of time. The game is a hell of a lot twitchier than dota, so falling back on strategy or efficiency just isn't really an option. You -need- good mechanics, and they're not like dota farming efficiency or creep manipulation mechanics, they're skirmish and reaction mechanics, and real fking hard to learn.
The big problem I have with the game is that the game's client is shit so learning anything is impossible. You can't click on enemies and read their abilities, and I only recently learned you can actually hold shift while looking at your own abilities to see how they scale.
just go full magical damage on teemo ezpz thread is ded my new favourite hobby is to tell people to wear their mask properly, I love how shocked they look when they get told on like a 6yo
I thought about buying a bunch of masks with printings of covidiots and motivating messages like "put your fucking mask on, you fucking moron". And run around with those.
I nicely asked someone at a store to take a few steps away from (he didn't have a mask on). His response was literally "bro like calm the fuck down, you aren't gonna die"...
Not sure how nicely asking for space seemed not calm in his mind. I think people just aren't used to being called out even if it's done with respect.
On October 11 2020 11:01 TheEmulator wrote: I nicely asked someone at a store to take a few steps away from (he didn't have a mask on). His response was literally "bro like calm the fuck down, you aren't gonna die"...
Not sure how nicely asking for space seemed not calm in his mind. I think people just aren't used to being called out even if it's done with respect.
it's just delusion and shifts the topic from them to you; it's no longer about your polite request for them to move away or how they aren't wearing a mask, it's a shift to how you're acting - a bait to get you to say "I am calm" because then it's no longer about him and he won't have to self-reflect
EPT
