EPT6.82 Balance Changes and Discussion Thread - Page 81
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:11 Sn0_Man wrote: Personally, I think my biggest complaint about the new system is that it assumes that networth and XP are the most important things in dota. Much like old Dota 1 people complained about when casters started relying on the XP/Networth graphs as their source of "whos ahead" etc, dota is about so much more than just "well I got more gold lel". A team can be over 75% favoured to win based on gamestate and still behind on networth. The very concept of the new bounty system rejects the natural asymmetry of heroes in a manner that seems incredibly short-sighted. This game really isn't HotS where you have literally one resource. That's an interesting point. But it's taking gold into account only when calculating how much gold it's going to give you for a kill, so I think it makes sense in that regard. Same with exp. I think it just creates a different "playing field" that players and pros have to adjust to. Greedy lineups are good this version? So what, is that a problem? Kills give a ton of gold and even more when you're behind? Again, I don't see how that's an issue, it's just different. And don't give me that crap that the way you play in the first 20 minutes doesn't matter, everyone knows that's bullshit. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:11 Sn0_Man wrote: Personally, I think my biggest complaint about the new system is that it assumes that networth and XP are the most important things in dota. Much like old Dota 1 people complained about when casters started relying on the XP/Networth graphs as their source of "whos ahead" etc, dota is about so much more than just "well I got more gold lel". A team can be over 75% favoured to win based on gamestate and still behind on networth. The very concept of the new bounty system rejects the natural asymmetry of heroes in a manner that seems incredibly short-sighted. This game really isn't HotS where you have literally one resource. If I had to best is that Valve and Icefrog likely saw a lot of games where a team got an early lead and just never lost momentum, even if they feed a large number of kills or played poorly. Or they are just seeing an overall trend that the first team to get the lead keeps it. The system is likely over tuned right now, but I don't think Icefrog added it without reason or data to back it up. Edit: and the people throwing up stats like "the first 20 minutes didn't matter". They only don't matter if you throw or you were never as ahead as you thought you were. Its only been less than 24 hours and players will likely need to touch the stove a bunch more times before they break some of their bad habits. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
 .It is like buffing some heroes all together without considering it is a buff. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
If a hero is MORE gold efficient than their opponents, why are we rewarding them with more free gold simply because they do more with less? o.o On September 27 2014 01:18 Plansix wrote: If I had to best is that Valve and Icefrog likely saw a lot of games where a team got an early lead and just never lost momentum, even if they feed a large number of kills or played poorly. Or they are just seeing an overall trend that the first team to get the lead keeps it. The system is likely over tuned right now, but I don't think Icefrog added it without reason or data to back it up. But thats a product of how easy towers were to deathball down, which is fixed. So the bounty changes aren't at all necessary. And even if they were they are WILDLY overtuned. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:18 Laserist wrote: Issue is, gold and xp mean different things for every hero. Giving lots of them favors some of them more .It is like buffing some heroes all together without considering it is a buff. How did you find out that it wasn't taken into consideration when IceFrog was making the patch? | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:19 Sn0_Man wrote: I don't think u thought that through cecek. If a hero is MORE gold efficient than their opponents, why are we rewarding them with more free gold simply because they do more with less? o.o I don't get this. What do you mean? More efficient in that he can use more gold more efficiently? As in, hard carries are the most gold efficient heroes in the game? In that case, I don't understand how you're giving them free gold. Creeps don't give more gold, farming doesn't seem to be easier this version. Early killers are stronger this patch, because kills overall give more gold (the killer now gets the assist gold, too), so it's easier to snowball with an early killer. It is of course also easier to throw the snowball lead, but that's just how it is. I don't see why that's bad. But thats a product of how easy towers were to deathball down, which is fixed. So the bounty changes aren't at all necessary. And even if they were they are WILDLY overtuned. We literally had the patch for a day. It took weeks and weeks to discover the true deathball strat in 6.81 and to find that it's the best strat. I'm really shocked how you can call some strategies as not working this patch or whatever... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:19 Sn0_Man wrote: I don't think u thought that through cecek. If a hero is MORE gold efficient than their opponents, why are we rewarding them with more free gold simply because they do more with less? o.o But thats a product of how easy towers were to deathball down, which is fixed. So the bounty changes aren't at all necessary. And even if they were they are WILDLY overtuned. I am thinking more across the board, not just deathball games where they pushed towers to glory. I mean, none of us know what Icefrog was thinking, but most of the stuff he adds is pretty good. Personally, I think a lot of players have some really bad habit when they get a lead and this new patch is really punishing that. People just need to touch the stove more and shit will likely calm down. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
We lost that game too, its not like "oh ur so far ahead blah blah blah" | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:14 Comeh wrote: Considering perfect skill, its amazing. But in a lot of our games, its going to be nearly game losing. NS worse than ever. Worst hero in dota. why 'our' ? I don't think we're in the same games huh | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
On September 26 2014 23:21 ref4 wrote: That is exactly the underdog mechanic from heroes of the storm and I really don't like it. Think about it, the game is punishing you for doing well. Your teammates successful ganks and rotations lead to punishment by the game itself, while the enemy team who were constantly get caught out or had no map awareness/presence is not effected. Then why even bother doing your best? Thanks, this is exactly what I'm thinking. The game shouldn't punish you for playing a great early game. Again, it's like if a football/soccer referee would grant a team being down 0-3 one or two extra goals at half time just to make the game more interesting. It's bullshit and it's hurting the competitive aspect of the game. This bounty system could be implemented in something like "apem" or other Pub modes where you'd want to make the game more exciting/have bigger comeback mechanics. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:28 Sn0_Man wrote: It's actually incredibly miserable to gank a hero and get 63 gold for your trouble. And the guy who got the lasthit gets like 300, so no better than "ganking" an unstacked ancient camp. We lost that game too, its not like "oh ur so far ahead blah blah blah" Well, if you're doubling the enemy team's networth and are 5 man ganking their position 5, then I guess you deserve to get just 63 gold, because that's like the only way you can get that little, rofl. It's not like doing that play is going to get you far even in 6.81, to be honest. | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:34 ChunderBoy wrote: well ns has crimsonguard going for him and so do a lot of great offlaners  | ||
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Nymzee
3929 Posts
my team were 27-4 down and we had lost all our towers except t3, our team was LC, kotl, ogre, centaur and naga... we just turtled at our base for 20 minutes and then when they pushed us with aegis, we wiped them (lol) and well, here's the net worth graphs of the game: http://i.imgur.com/H24JxmM.jpg (gold) http://i.imgur.com/dsrOvat.jpg (exp) http://i.imgur.com/TQLgH8N.png (overall stats for players (lol@mykotl)) i just think it's really silly, naga got a 29 minute radiance in this game as well... we basically have "even exchanges" but the gold is always in our favour, idk it just seems silly to award bad early game play... | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:37 ChunderBoy wrote: dude i died once, and gave an antimage a basher/heart and a buyback while i was busy respawning Replay or a picture or something. | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:23 cecek wrote: I don't get this. What do you mean? More efficient in that he can use more gold more efficiently? As in, hard carries are the most gold efficient heroes in the game? In that case, I don't understand how you're giving them free gold. Creeps don't give more gold, farming doesn't seem to be easier this version. Early killers are stronger this patch, because kills overall give more gold (the killer now gets the assist gold, too), so it's easier to snowball with an early killer. It is of course also easier to throw the snowball lead, but that's just how it is. I don't see why that's bad. We literally had the patch for a day. It took weeks and weeks to discover the true deathball strat in 6.81 and to find that it's the best strat. I'm really shocked how you can call some strategies as not working this patch or whatever... i have to agree with Sn0_Man for once , the game is very complex as it is because the heroes are so different , epic comebacks usually happens when a team has a good late game but due to the leading team good early mid game they get a hugh lead that somehow the late game team pulls back bit by bit until the early/mid oriented team cant win a teamfight anymore , now this swing will be SHARP because your Void who got shutdown in the early game gets a good chrono on the carry and gets his next big items -> which he uses better then most to start turning the game around. Tonning down the deathpush was essential (as toning down rat dota was). of course Pro teams will adjust and find the silver lining here but it doesnt mean it makes it a good design. and also Kills doesnt give more gold , they give less as you kill more .....and it SWINGS when the other team smoke ganked you ONE time ... | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On September 27 2014 01:43 Sn0_Man wrote: can u avoid submitting a post with 7 blank lines at the end of it? not sure i know how it happened in the first place....... :S | ||
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