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On September 26 2014 23:18 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 23:16 govie wrote:On September 26 2014 22:21 GinNtoniC wrote:On September 26 2014 22:01 govie wrote:all games will be closer, people wont give up that easily as they used too, that isnt bad thats good  No, that is bad. Why? Because a great early games gets erased by one bad fight or a smoke gank. Why would you even put emphasis on playing an early-game-focused lineup? What will happen is: • Early game rotations will mean less because comebacks are a lot easier to pull off (bounty value) • Teams that accumulate a solid lead in the midgame will pull back and farm/starve their opponents rather than going high ground --> We will have very long and stale games where people will avoid pushing high ground to avoid big teamfights where massive Net Worth swings will happen. Your kind of logic annoys me massively, because all you see is "games will be closer = more exciting!" Imagine you watch a game of football/soccer and a team is down by 0-3. What if the referee gave the losing team a free goal or two just to make the game more exciting? That's TERRIBLE for the sport and if Dota is to be considered a legitimate e-sport, then changes like this are hurting the game. I understand that but i enjoy dota alot more when everyone is trying to win. I see alot of games in the trench were people give up and throw a game pre 10 minutemark thats winneable, just because they had a bad start. Those games will occur alot less. I guess the lower mmr you have the happier you are with this xp/gold change, because 40/50% of my games feel like people are throwing games on purpose 6 minutes in and valve punishes me if i leave, so eventually i start to feed too just to find a descent game. This patch solves that to an extend, sadly not everyone plays with the mentality of a 5k+ mmr player. I dont want my games turning into shit just so trench games aren't as awfull
80% is trench, deal with it
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On September 26 2014 23:19 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 23:18 cilinder007 wrote:On September 26 2014 23:16 govie wrote:On September 26 2014 22:21 GinNtoniC wrote:On September 26 2014 22:01 govie wrote:all games will be closer, people wont give up that easily as they used too, that isnt bad thats good No, that is bad. Why? Because a great early games gets erased by one bad fight or a smoke gank. Why would you even put emphasis on playing an early-game-focused lineup? What will happen is: • Early game rotations will mean less because comebacks are a lot easier to pull off (bounty value) • Teams that accumulate a solid lead in the midgame will pull back and farm/starve their opponents rather than going high ground --> We will have very long and stale games where people will avoid pushing high ground to avoid big teamfights where massive Net Worth swings will happen. Your kind of logic annoys me massively, because all you see is "games will be closer = more exciting!" Imagine you watch a game of football/soccer and a team is down by 0-3. What if the referee gave the losing team a free goal or two just to make the game more exciting? That's TERRIBLE for the sport and if Dota is to be considered a legitimate e-sport, then changes like this are hurting the game. I understand that but i enjoy dota alot more when everyone is trying to win. I see alot of games in the trench were people give up and throw a game pre 10 minutemark thats winneable, just because they had a bad start. Those games will occur alot less. I guess the lower mmr you have the happier you are with this xp/gold change, because 40/50% of my games feel like people are throwing games on purpose 6 minutes in and valve punishes me if i leave, so eventually i start to feed too just to find a descent game. This patch solves that to an extend, sadly not everyone plays with the mentality of a 5k+ mmr player. I dont want my games turning into shit just so trench games aren't as awfull 80% is trench, deal with it
Every game is in the trench. Have you watched the pro streams at 5K mmr? They look like my games, but with more gold. You still get ass clowns who go to buy their items rather then come to a team fight or can't be bothered carry a TP.
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On September 26 2014 23:16 Laserist wrote:
What if the underdog will have the same gold/xp gain before the patch and the stomper team will gain less and less?
I mean keeping the item costs same and boost the underdog leads very quick itemization which they don't deserve. Snowballing should give you less instead of feeding underdog more imo.
That is exactly the underdog mechanic from heroes of the storm and I really don't like it. Think about it, the game is punishing you for doing well. Your teammates successful ganks and rotations lead to punishment by the game itself, while the enemy team who were constantly get caught out or had no map awareness/presence is not effected. Then why even bother doing your best?
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On September 26 2014 23:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 23:19 govie wrote:On September 26 2014 23:18 cilinder007 wrote:On September 26 2014 23:16 govie wrote:On September 26 2014 22:21 GinNtoniC wrote:On September 26 2014 22:01 govie wrote:all games will be closer, people wont give up that easily as they used too, that isnt bad thats good No, that is bad. Why? Because a great early games gets erased by one bad fight or a smoke gank. Why would you even put emphasis on playing an early-game-focused lineup? What will happen is: • Early game rotations will mean less because comebacks are a lot easier to pull off (bounty value) • Teams that accumulate a solid lead in the midgame will pull back and farm/starve their opponents rather than going high ground --> We will have very long and stale games where people will avoid pushing high ground to avoid big teamfights where massive Net Worth swings will happen. Your kind of logic annoys me massively, because all you see is "games will be closer = more exciting!" Imagine you watch a game of football/soccer and a team is down by 0-3. What if the referee gave the losing team a free goal or two just to make the game more exciting? That's TERRIBLE for the sport and if Dota is to be considered a legitimate e-sport, then changes like this are hurting the game. I understand that but i enjoy dota alot more when everyone is trying to win. I see alot of games in the trench were people give up and throw a game pre 10 minutemark thats winneable, just because they had a bad start. Those games will occur alot less. I guess the lower mmr you have the happier you are with this xp/gold change, because 40/50% of my games feel like people are throwing games on purpose 6 minutes in and valve punishes me if i leave, so eventually i start to feed too just to find a descent game. This patch solves that to an extend, sadly not everyone plays with the mentality of a 5k+ mmr player. I dont want my games turning into shit just so trench games aren't as awfull 80% is trench, deal with it Every game is in the trench. Have you watched the pro streams at 5K mmr? They look like my games, but with more gold. You still get ass clowns who go to buy their items rather then come to a team fight or can't be bothered carry a TP.
Well you know what i mean, your a trenchie too right
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On September 26 2014 22:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 22:47 ZeaL. wrote:Playing 1 protect 4 as support ogre. Get rekt early/midgame. They try to push middle a little too hastily and then... + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +we trade 1 for 3. Suddenly, richest ogre in the world Not sure how to feel about this. Now you can buy that Euls you always wanted! But really the other team is still winning, look at that mini map and net worth different. You just need to do that 3 more times for a full comeback.
Yeah, we had to win a few more team fights to win, and dire DID throw a bit, but I'm not sure if this type of comeback would have been possible pre 6.82. Not to say that comebacks with 15k gold deficits never happened before, but the speed at which the losing team can regain ground is greatly accelerated.
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On September 26 2014 23:23 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 22:51 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2014 22:47 ZeaL. wrote:Playing 1 protect 4 as support ogre. Get rekt early/midgame. They try to push middle a little too hastily and then... + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +we trade 1 for 3. Suddenly, richest ogre in the world Not sure how to feel about this. Now you can buy that Euls you always wanted! But really the other team is still winning, look at that mini map and net worth different. You just need to do that 3 more times for a full comeback. Yeah, we had to win a few more team fights to win, and dire DID throw a bit, but I'm not sure if this type of comeback would have been possible pre 6.82. Not to say that comebacks with 15k gold deficits never happened before, but the speed at which the losing team can regain ground is greatly accelerated.
Yeah, the question right now is if the speed is right. I think it might be to fast, but I like that there is a chance for a comeback if you can hold your tier 3s over several team fights. It makes agies super valuable, since its the one system where you can be aggressive and not risk giving up gold.
Of course people are going to report "We had an amazing lead and they won a single team fight and we lost" and we are going to look at their game and see they were never that far ahead.
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If you look at the stats in 6.81 over 10k lead comebacks almost never happened.
I really like the idea behind this but i think it's a bit too early to say how it will effect the game yet, it might or might not be too much atm.
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On September 26 2014 23:21 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 23:16 Laserist wrote:
What if the underdog will have the same gold/xp gain before the patch and the stomper team will gain less and less?
I mean keeping the item costs same and boost the underdog leads very quick itemization which they don't deserve. Snowballing should give you less instead of feeding underdog more imo. That is exactly the underdog mechanic from heroes of the storm and I really don't like it. Think about it, the game is punishing you for doing well. Your teammates successful ganks and rotations lead to punishment by the game itself, while the enemy team who were constantly get caught out or had no map awareness/presence is not effected. Then why even bother doing your best?
The result is the same for either mechanics. If you already played better and gain less, you'll eventually at least keep your lead from farm, map control, itemization etc...
If you played better, have a lead then lost a single fight gives immense boost to the underdog. It is not like you win every fight in a lead. Some heroes excel at team fights (they will be even more popular imo) and turn the tide(etc. tide) of the battle in your favor from disadvantageous position.
Keeping item costs same and give more gold to underdog gives huge advantage to them from single fight which they don't deserve. the underdog should crawl to victory by playing careful and execute well in general continuous fashion. Not by catching enemy cores out of position once.
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I like the idea of having the gold mechanic comeback change that is in the game, but i think the factor should be altered a bit.
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That is the more productive discussion to be had. I think the gold for single pick offs might be a little high, but I don't have a problem with big rewards for turning huge team fights. If you win a fight when you are 10K behind, I think you would be able to buy a vlads, Euls or mek to help with the next one.
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Well, you've figured out which supports are secretly lategame monsters
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i didn't make this picture just copied it, and the bottom part is dumb. But this pretty much confirms that lategame heros are a lot stronger now as the new gold mechanic makes it very hard to get a big enough lead to break highground and eventually superhard carries take over and just win.
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The issue with dotabuff graphs is that they aren't scaled properly. But the trend is there and obvious.
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On September 26 2014 23:40 idonthinksobro wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JLuqeDB.png)
Accurate summary of why this patch is horrible. Why would anyone ever pick a support now, early game rotations are counterproductive
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Wait is there a bug with spectre or did that hero actually go from 52% to 62% winrate in one day? litreally 10.7% increase in winrate. Seems balanced.
Don't worry guys the patch is FIIIIIINE and doesn't completely punish a team for being ahead.
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Also, an important affect of winrate changes in patches is when players start playing heroes they normally dont play, and naturally lower the winrate because of the unfamiliarity.
On September 26 2014 23:51 Sn0_Man wrote:
Wait is there a bug with spectre or did that hero actually go from 52% to 62% winrate in one day? litreally 10.7% increase in winrate. Seems balanced.
Don't worry guys the patch is FIIIIIINE and doesn't completely punish a team for being ahead.
This hero is amazing this patch.
Like stupidly good.
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On September 26 2014 23:47 blobrus wrote:Accurate summary of why this patch is horrible. Why would anyone ever pick a support now, early game rotations are counterproductive
LoL, all those graphs are fucked. Seriously, how much did someone doctor this. Look at the faceless void graph. Both data points are 53%. CM dropped half a %. Morphling gained 2%. This is like Fox News level use of graphs.
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On September 26 2014 23:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 23:47 blobrus wrote:On September 26 2014 23:40 idonthinksobro wrote: Accurate summary of why this patch is horrible. Why would anyone ever pick a support now, early game rotations are counterproductive LoL, all those graphs are fucked. Seriously, how much did someone doctor this. Look at the faceless void graph. Both data points are 53%. CM dropped half a %. Morphling gained 2%. This is like Fox News level use of graphs.
No thats just what dotabuff graphs look like cuz dotabuff dynamically scales all their graphs (LOL).
The point remains, if ur hero goes late ur hero has up to 10.7% higher winrate with essentially no buff (or even big nerfs).
And while I'll be the first to tell u that dotabuff means very very little in terms of how balanced a hero is, its hard to say that spectre picking up 10% winrate doesn't say a lot about how the patch itself is balanced.
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On September 26 2014 23:55 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 23:54 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2014 23:47 blobrus wrote:On September 26 2014 23:40 idonthinksobro wrote: Accurate summary of why this patch is horrible. Why would anyone ever pick a support now, early game rotations are counterproductive LoL, all those graphs are fucked. Seriously, how much did someone doctor this. Look at the faceless void graph. Both data points are 53%. CM dropped half a %. Morphling gained 2%. This is like Fox News level use of graphs. No thats just what dotabuff graphs look like cuz dotabuff dynamically scales all their graphs (LOL). The point remains, if ur hero goes late ur hero has up to 10.7% higher winrate with essentially no buff (or even big nerfs). And while I'll be the first to tell u that dotabuff means very very little in terms of how balanced a hero is, its hard to say that spectre picking up 10% winrate doesn't say a lot about how the patch itself is balanced.
Further confirming that dota buff is bad at stuff. I really wish it showed you how many games caused the increase. I know spectre is godly, but I wonder how many games caused that increase? I haven't see spectre in a game in like 4-6 months(my personal games)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GDy7XuE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zDQuPg8.jpg)
