EPT6.82 Balance Changes and Discussion Thread - Page 108
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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BillGates
471 Posts
Radiant 50k vs 25k Dire Victim level is 21 (23.000 exp) 6.82b: 1 hero: 2718 5 hero: 1024 6.82: 1 hero: 4253 5 hero: 1254 And again I'm using high differences to show the extremes, if those look good, then the more common differences would naturally be balanced as well. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
I'll make a new table that has victim networth in it and show actual bonus payout. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:14 BillGates wrote: So the new XP changes are like this: Radiant 50k vs 25k Dire Victim level is 21 (23.000 exp) 6.82b: 1 hero: 2718 5 hero: 1024 6.82: 1 hero: 4253 5 hero: 1254 And again I'm using high differences to show the extremes, if those look good, then the more common differences would naturally be balanced as well. The high differences actually show less of a difference than the lower ones because of how NWDifference's formula changed. With the new formula for NWDifference, the drop in payout as net worth differences approach zero are far sharper. Like, you have to realize that based on the formula at double net worth/XP, the new formula only seems to give numbers that are like 80-90% of the old one, which doesn't seem that different. But at realistic net worth/XP differences where the winning team has 1.2-1.4x the losing team's, the new formula gives only 40-50% of the old one because of how NWDifference drops off more rapidly as the net worths converge using the new formula. Showing only the extreme case doesn't acknowledge this. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2550 Posts
...and even then, only if you manage to kill a higher value target on the opposing team? That seems logical and sane. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Picked a random game from Dotabuffs Matches (25k+ exp lead, 40k+ gold lead): http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/928480236 Enemy = Dire Allied = Radiant Victim = Pudge VictimLevel = 20 VictimNW = 21000.0 VictimXP = 21075.5 EnemyTeamNW = 90000.0 EnemyTeamXP = 87596 AlliedTeamNW = 50800.0 AlliedTeamXP = 60359.5 XPDifference = ( EnemyTeamXP - AlliedTeamXP )/ ( EnemyTeamXP + AlliedTeamXP ) = 0.18408575551432693 XPFactor = XPDifference * VictimXP = 3879.699340342197 6.82 (Pre nerf) NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW - AlliedTeamNW ) / ( EnemyTeamNW + AlliedTeamNW ) NWDifference = 0.2784090909090909 NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW NWFactor = 5846.590909090909 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.5 = ~3103g 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.35 = ~2196g 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.25 = ~1581g 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.2 = ~1259g 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.15 = ~966g 1 Hero: XP = 20 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.5 = ~2339 2 Heroes: XP = 15 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.35 = ~1657 3 Heroes: XP = 10 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.25 = ~1169 4 Heroes: XP = 7 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.2 = ~915 5 Heroes: XP = 5 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.15 = ~681 6.82(Post Nerf) 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.3 = ~1933g 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.3 = ~1903g 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.2 = ~1289g 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.15 = ~966g 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.12 = ~791g 6.82b NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) - 1 NWDifference = 0.7716535433070866 NWFactor = NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW NWFactor = 16204.724409448818 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06 = ~1152g 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06 = ~1122g 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05 = ~930g 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04 = ~738g 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03 = ~576g 1 Hero: XP = 20 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.3 = ~1563 2 Heroes: XP = 15 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.3 = ~1463 3 Heroes: XP = 10 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.2 = ~975 4 Heroes: XP = 7 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.15 = ~721 5 Heroes: XP = 5 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.12 = ~565 TL;DR: Killing Pudge with a Beyond Godlike Streak (Solo) 6.82 = ~3903g 6.82 (nerf) = ~2413g 6.82b = ~1641g 6.81 = ~1365g | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
 I'm keeping this screenshot to remind myself of this glorious version forever:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/601j436.png) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:32 Dommk wrote: From the other thread, here is an analysis of a random game I picked out : http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/928480236 + Show Spoiler + Picked a random game from Dotabuffs Matches (25k+ exp lead, 40k+ gold lead): http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/928480236 Enemy = Dire Allied = Radiant Victim = Pudge VictimLevel = 17 VictimNW = 21000.0 VictimXP = 21075.5 EnemyTeamNW = 90000.0 EnemyTeamXP = 87596 AlliedTeamNW = 50800.0 AlliedTeamXP = 60359.5 XPDifference = ( EnemyTeamXP - AlliedTeamXP )/ ( EnemyTeamXP + AlliedTeamXP ) = 0.18408575551432693 XPFactor = XPDifference * VictimXP = 3879.699340342197 6.82 (Pre nerf) NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW - AlliedTeamNW ) / ( EnemyTeamNW + AlliedTeamNW ) NWDifference = 0.2784090909090909 NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW NWFactor = 5846.590909090909 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.5 = ~3082g 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.35 = ~2178g 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.25 = ~1566g 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.2 = ~1247g 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.15 = ~954g 1 Hero: XP = 20 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.5 = ~2279 2 Heroes: XP = 15 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.35 = ~1612 3 Heroes: XP = 10 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.25 = ~1139 4 Heroes: XP = 7 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.2 = ~894 5 Heroes: XP = 5 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.15 = ~666 6.82(Post Nerf) 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.3 = ~1912g 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.3 = ~1912g 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.2 = ~1247g 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.15 = ~954g 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.12 = ~779g 6.82b NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) NWDifference = 0.7716535433070866 NWFactor = NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW NWFactor = 16204.724409448818 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06 = ~1131g 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06 = ~1104g 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05 = ~915g 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04 = ~726g 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03 = ~564g 1 Hero: XP = 20 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.3 = ~1503 2 Heroes: XP = 15 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.3 = ~1418 3 Heroes: XP = 10 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.2 = ~945 4 Heroes: XP = 7 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.15 = ~700 5 Heroes: XP = 5 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.12 = ~550 TL;DR: Killing Pudge with a Beyond Godlike Streak (Solo) 6.82 = ~3882g 6.82 (nerf) = ~2392g 6.82b = ~1611g 6.81 = ~1329g Again, it's worth pointing out that the end screen net worth difference is a lot higher than it would be at a reasonable point in the game (since the winning team gets a surge of gold at the end from final base defense kills + T3/T4 towers, and was probably already leveraging a farm advantage from raxed lanes/etc.). At realistic net worth differences, the 6.82b numbers will be even lower compared to the 6.82 numbers. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Pretty sure it's right. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RHNzrgj.png) And for nerf junkies, here is the net change: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kv0x95i.png) | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:36 TheYango wrote: Again, it's worth pointing out that the end screen net worth difference is a lot higher than it would be at a reasonable point in the game (since the winning team gets a surge of gold at the end from final base defense kills + T3/T4 towers, and was probably already leveraging a farm advantage from raxed lanes/etc.). At realistic net worth differences, the 6.82b numbers will be even lower compared to the 6.82 numbers. Yeah exactly. That game the other team had almost double the networth and 1.5x the exp 30mins in. If your NWFactor is low enough, there are some instances in 6.82b where you actually get less gold than you would have in 6.81! | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:39 Kreb wrote: Meh, would've liked to see them try the first nerf numbers more. The very first 6.82 numbers were quite obviously out of hand. But after first nerf it seemed at least reasonable enough to try for a few weeks. I'd like to say...I was never in the "Icefrog can do no wrong" camp but I do support this mechanic and felt it was in the best interest of the game to put it in and tune it. But the nerfs from the original iteration are so massive I really have to wonder how they came up with the original numbers and pushed them live if they were going to scale it down so quickly. Maybe it really was, as has been theorized, to get people acclimated through an extreme version so the more "on-target" numbers felt like a relief for those who find the mechanic repugnant to begin with. But I'm unconvinced. Maybe it was tuned so far off-target because the game's numbers peaked around TI4 and then got a big chunk taken out of them and between this and the extraordinarily disappointing finish to what should have been a totally epic TI, they felt pressure to push this out ASAP. Don't forget that this is also out there: One more thing: we on the Dota 2 team have a number of updates in the works right now that we’re really excited about, some for the rest of this year, and a big update for early next year. But we’re pretty sure we won’t be able to make enough progress on the larger update if we put it down to work on Diretide – so we’ve decided that we’re not going to ship a Diretide event this year. We know that last year we weren’t clear enough in our communication about this, so this year we wanted to be up front about it early. Next year will bring monumental changes to Dota 2, and we’re confident that when you’ve seen what we’ve been working on, you’ll agree it was worth it. Next year will bring monumental changes to Dota 2 monumental changes | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:46 Dommk wrote: If your NWFactor is low enough, there are some instances in 6.82b where you actually get less gold than you would have in 6.81! Well the winning team always gets less gold than you would in 6.81, lol. On September 29 2014 16:51 FHDH wrote: But the nerfs from the original iteration are so massive I really have to wonder how they came up with the original numbers and pushed them live if they were going to scale it down so quickly. Icefrog has had a history of doing this with a lot of things. Even for people who've only been with DotA since DotA 2, it shouldn't be surprising when he does this (though this might be the first time since DotA 2 was released that he's done it with a systemic change to the game and not just a hero- or item-specific change). | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Icefrog has had a history of doing this with a lot of things. Even for people who've only been with DotA since DotA 2, it shouldn't be surprising when he does this. Ever anything quite this monumental though? I mean this radically changed risk/reward in every game played. | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:56 FHDH wrote: Ever anything quite this monumental though? I mean this radically changed risk/reward in every game played. Pretty sure the "monumental changes" referenced there isn't 6.82. We'll see what they are in October, according to Cyborgmatt. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 29 2014 17:04 Kishin2 wrote: Pretty sure the "monumental changes" referenced there isn't 6.82. We'll see what they are in October, according to Cyborgmatt. My phrasing there was just a coincidence. I know they are talking about changes other than 6.82 by the context of the quote there. Monumental changes. | ||
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BillGates
471 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:19 TheYango wrote: The high differences actually show less of a difference than the lower ones because of how NWDifference's formula changed. With the new formula for NWDifference, the drop in payout as net worth differences approach zero are far sharper. Like, you have to realize that based on the formula at double net worth/XP, the new formula only seems to give numbers that are like 80-90% of the old one, which doesn't seem that different. But at realistic net worth/XP differences where the winning team has 1.2-1.4x the losing team's, the new formula gives only 40-50% of the old one because of how NWDifference drops off more rapidly as the net worths converge using the new formula. Showing only the extreme case doesn't acknowledge this. Get some glasses please, this is for EXPERIENCE, NOT gold. | ||
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