EPTwe need some info from phantasmal comparing winrates for BS at normal vs v. high games
6.82 Balance Changes and Discussion Thread - Page 106
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7042 Posts
we need some info from phantasmal comparing winrates for BS at normal vs v. high games | ||
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deathzz
669 Posts
On September 29 2014 09:37 FHDH wrote: There must be an equivalent to Godwin's Law here. It's also a remarkably silly argument since, as much as SC2 is a complex game with a far higher mechanical skill cap, the human dynamics of 1v1 Starcraft compared to 5v5 Dota2 are overwhelmingly more complex, and these are a major factor in the evolution of a new meta. No one is saying "ignore the data." But statistics lie if you don't contextualize them, and arguments like this will inevitably be full of confirmation bias. The particular context of evaluating these changes is that this is a massive patch that a lot of individual humans are in the middle of adjusting to, in the middle of a complex human-driven environment. If you want to see hand-waving, see hand-waving. If you don't want to contextualize data, then don't. But let me ask you this: Do you believe Bloodseeker has gotten stronger or weaker in this patch? Most of the board believes he has gotten far stronger, perhaps to the point of being broken-strong. And yet his win rate has plummeted I believe that everyone is trying out Bloodseeker including noobs because they reworked it. It's similar to how techies win rate increased after it was released for sometime. Noobs realised they can't use it well and just abandoned the hero leaving people who knew how to play Techies still using Techies. I say give the patch some time so that people can figure it out. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On September 29 2014 08:45 FakeDeath wrote: If u win all three lanes, u deserve an overwhelming advantage. Usually I like Icefrog patch But the one thing I don't is this EXP/Gold kill streak change. Essentially this means IF THE opponent ever get a good teamfight one time something like trade 3 hero for the 5 enemy hero in a fight, the game literally goes even even if u r 15k exp/gold ahead. The swing is too huge and drastic IMO. This means players are going play a lot safer after securing a lead and keep waiting out the rosh while farming. The new meta is gonna favor greedy lineup with multiple cores. This means pubs will be even more tryhard than ever. this post hits the nail on the head for me. greedy lineups will be rewarded and to be honest, i don't see a purpose in playing a hard support. you don't really benefit from the gold swings and you mostly get 1-shot. on top of that, if you want to win, you HAVE to try hard, which isn't always the most entertaining thing in dota, especially when the "game is hard." | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 29 2014 10:04 BluemoonSC wrote: this post hits the nail on the head for me. greedy lineups will be rewarded and to be honest, i don't see a purpose in playing a hard support. you don't really benefit from the gold swings and you mostly get 1-shot. on top of that, if you want to win, you HAVE to try hard, which isn't always the most entertaining thing in dota, especially when the "game is hard." I just won a game where we won all three lanes and then were careful. People asked if we should go highground and I said "no, this is new dota, lets get rosh and make sure drow has her BKB. Then we can try to take rax" Then we did it. Once people start seeing games from pros in high stakes games, people will adjust their play. The values will likely be adjusted again(like the XP gain for kills) and then we will see. But the game isn't going to go back to the way it was before where you could buy everything off the backs of tier ones needed to push the teir 2s. The game has slowed down and hard carrys are viable again. | ||
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Churrass
573 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On September 29 2014 10:30 Churrass wrote: the patch is fine now since the last nerf, but the bandwagon wont stop and everyone will blame 6.82 comeback mechanics intead of bad missplay when they lost with a lead , i hope valve dont listen to these whiners, this change is really for the best, nobody wants to see TI4 finals again Don't think anyones talking about gold from towers. | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
Here's what happened with actual numbers: Dire team fell behind early. Noob Jakiro fed and went 0-6 early on. 17 min 22-7 Radiant 15k gold lead 8k xp lead 19 min Radiant has an 18k gold lead 13k xp lead Score becomes 29-10, Dire gets a 2-1 trade, nets 3k xp/gold for it 25 min Radiant kills Rosh, score is 34-13, 18k gold lead, 15k xp lead 26 min Dire ganks Radiant after Rosh, gets a 4-1, Dire gets +7k gold and +11k xp 27 min Dire picks off 2 heroes trading a denied hero, Radiant ahead 10k gold and 1k xp 30 min 38-23 Dire gets a 4-2 trade, +3.5k gold, and +8k xp Difference in net worth is now 0, Dire has a 3k xp lead 41 min Dire ahead 10k gold and 18k xp 42 min 45-31 Radiant gets a 4-1 trade, +5.4k gold, +14.6k xp Match on Dotabuff: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/928146240 Now, is it severe? A team behind 15k xp and 18k gold gets 7k gold and 11k xp. A team behind 10k gold and 18k xp gets 5.4k gold and 14.6k xp. Experience matters less as the game progresses, so the xp swing midgame for a losing team is pretty significant, especially considering the team that's ahead has longer respawn. I don't think the gold swing is too much right now. 7k gold for a team behind 18k gold that gets a 4-1 isn't unbalanced I feel, but maybe the xp should be a bit less. I'm slightly biased since I was the typical early game feeder that made a comeback and it's only 1 example, but the team that's ahead really has to make mistakes + losing team really has to make good plays. Comebacks need to fulfill both requirements or the team that's ahead still wins. I don't think that's bad. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On September 29 2014 10:19 Plansix wrote: I just won a game where we won all three lanes and then were careful. People asked if we should go highground and I said "no, this is new dota, lets get rosh and make sure drow has her BKB. Then we can try to take rax" Then we did it. Once people start seeing games from pros in high stakes games, people will adjust their play. The values will likely be adjusted again(like the XP gain for kills) and then we will see. But the game isn't going to go back to the way it was before where you could buy everything off the backs of tier ones needed to push the teir 2s. The game has slowed down and hard carrys are viable again. Yes because everyone wants to see Morphling vs Void or Spectre vs Medusa. Those games are totally fun to watch. The old meta had some issues, but the total restructuring of the game back towards older 5.84 meta of DotA 1 is going to cause serious issues in competitive play. It's abit early to make predictions, but I'm willing to bet that the metagame develops into a dual/tri-core centric meta unless something dramatic pushing/aggressive style of play occurs. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2550 Posts
On September 29 2014 10:19 Plansix wrote: I just won a game where we won all three lanes and then were careful. People asked if we should go highground and I said "no, this is new dota, lets get rosh and make sure drow has her BKB. Then we can try to take rax" Then we did it. Once people start seeing games from pros in high stakes games, people will adjust their play. The values will likely be adjusted again(like the XP gain for kills) and then we will see. But the game isn't going to go back to the way it was before where you could buy everything off the backs of tier ones needed to push the teir 2s. The game has slowed down and hard carrys are viable again. I still don't know where this statement comes from. I don't remember when they weren't viable, and right now it isn't so much "hard carries are viable" as "anyone that benefits a lot from gold and experience is viable". Unless you're talking specifically of the eras where AM, morph, or medusa were dominant. But personally, I don't want to see those again, especially not at the cost of a whole bunch of early game / push heroes becoming much less useful. | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
I think that this is a step in the right direction, but it should be toned back. Maybe the calculation should be based on how much gold you earned in between this death and your last. That would make highground pushing against hard carries much less stressful as if you have all your core items the next push wont be nearly as risky as the last time you did it. | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On September 29 2014 10:19 Plansix wrote: I just won a game where we won all three lanes and then were careful. People asked if we should go highground and I said "no, this is new dota, lets get rosh and make sure drow has her BKB. Then we can try to take rax" Then we did it. Once people start seeing games from pros in high stakes games, people will adjust their play. The values will likely be adjusted again(like the XP gain for kills) and then we will see. But the game isn't going to go back to the way it was before where you could buy everything off the backs of tier ones needed to push the teir 2s. The game has slowed down and hard carrys are viable again. The tower gold nerf and glyph refresh was enough to slow down the game. Stop combining those with the comeback rubber-banding. | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.26 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.22 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.18 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.14 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.10 What i dont like about this is that it punishes teams that lose 1 fight, and then all the sudden all that tower gold they got, is now a detriment to them so i think in networth difference of teams it should take out gold earned from roshan/towers so that objective based gaming is still strong with how hard towers are now to push. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2014 10:56 Fleetfeet wrote: I still don't know where this statement comes from. I don't remember when they weren't viable, and right now it isn't so much "hard carries are viable" as "anyone that benefits a lot from gold and experience is viable". Unless you're talking specifically of the eras where AM, morph, or medusa were dominant. But personally, I don't want to see those again, especially not at the cost of a whole bunch of early game / push heroes becoming much less useful. Yeah people seem to forget that through a good portion of 6.80-6.81 we had teams like DK and EG spearheading what could honestly be considered a pretty farmy version of DotA (with a farming mid and safelane hero and the midgame tempo centered around the offlaner who could do so because the offlane changes gave him far more early-game resources to work with). It was only 6.81b that emerged as a really fast, death-ball version of of DotA, and even then VG, the team that was probably most guilty of pushing this to its limit, still played a good number of mid-lategame 4-protects-1 games at TI4. DotA being so fast and early-game oriented was not some endemic problem that's plagued the last year of DotA. In fact, a good portion of 2013-2014 could actually be considered to be pretty slow-paced games. It's only post-6.81b where it seemed like fast death-ball games got out of hand, and even then, that can partly be attributed to how little time there was between 6.81b's release and TI4, which resulted in a lot of lopsided games that stayed in peoples' minds. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On September 29 2014 08:10 Plansix wrote: They will find new ways to get every inch of value out of the early game. The difference is that getting a couple of kills will not result in all three tier ones being killed and then snowballing to the entire map. Winning all three lanes isn't enough to have an overwhelming advantage any more. I don't like how a positioning mistake from one player in the later stages of the game can cost way more in the long run than ALL the decision making involving how the team laned/rotated their heroes. I hate how teams can lane their team so badly and still don't be severely punished for it. Laning way better than your opponents should be the kind of thing that makes a team win because they did it through planning and teamwork which for me makes the best dota experience, just my two cents. Hoping the new system gets toned down even more or replaced by the old tried and true system. On September 29 2014 11:32 r_con wrote: Honestly id like the calculation to take into effect "global gold" and no longer calculate that difference in the net worth. So say you have networth difference. 1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.26 2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.22 3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.18 4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.14 5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.10 What i dont like about this is that it punishes teams that lose 1 fight, and then all the sudden all that tower gold they got, is now a detriment to them so i think in networth difference of teams it should take out gold earned from roshan/towers so that objective based gaming is still strong with how hard towers are now to push. Good point. Getting a early tower shouldn't feel bittersweet. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Of course there are also the ones who will be affected in the opposite way in this patch like the AM from a game I played today who got himself killed repeatedly early for no good reason at all including one time he was being clearly encircled and I pinged it out and the whole team pinged it out and I bailed but he stayed...well after managing to wipe them a couple of times he got fat and we won. It was unranked but that guy would have gained MMR he shouldn't have. Guess we'll see which effect is more strong: pushing down bad decision-makers or pushing up bad laners. Oh, and how about that Dire secret/ancients area, huh? Way better fight area imo. [Edit] Honestly id like the calculation to take into effect "global gold" and no longer calculate that difference in the net worth. So say you have networth difference. I misread this the first time and I actually agree this is a reasonable proposal to explore. I mean the basic idea with the formula is that a team with a gold lead has an advantage they should leverage and gold, regardless of source, all contributes to this advantage. And you could say that winning a team fight shouldn't feel bittersweet either. But those early towers and Rosh, because of how networth difference is divided by total networth, mean a lot more in the early game. Certainly the concept of having two categories of gold for this calculation is a worthy idea. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On September 29 2014 11:46 FHDH wrote: I need to take a break from regular Dota-ing for a few weeks and my hope is that shitty carries who have good early games due to strong support but do dumb shit in the late game and win anyway (and think they are badass, always) will filter downard through the MMR bracket so when I come back I'm supporting better players. Of course there are also the ones who will be affected in the opposite way in this patch like the AM from a game I played today who got himself killed repeatedly early for no good reason at all including one time he was being clearly encircled and I pinged it out and the whole team pinged it out and I bailed but he stayed...well after managing to wipe them a couple of times he got fat and we won. It was unranked but that guy would have gained MMR he shouldn't have. Guess we'll see which effect is more strong: pushing down bad decision-makers or pushing up bad laners. Oh, and how about that Dire secret/ancients area, huh? Way better fight area imo. Yeh, above all I think that change is fantastic. Though for some reason I'm having problems stacking the ancients there. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
 Rosh failed at killing me as well and their razor got free first blood. Game was hard. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2550 Posts
On September 29 2014 11:46 FHDH wrote: I need to take a break from regular Dota-ing for a few weeks and my hope is that shitty carries who have good early games due to strong support but do dumb shit in the late game and win anyway (and think they are badass, always) will filter downard through the MMR bracket so when I come back I'm supporting better players. Your mistake isn't supporting shitty carries, it's supporting. Seriously, I've been playing windranger as a... fuck the old role conventions. I've been playing windrunner as a HERO, which seems to be the predominant role in this "meta'. Typically the other 4 players on my team also opt in to the HERO role, based on the fact that they invariably pick heroes. Even though I start and progress through the game buying team-oriented items like the courier, wards, and dust, I put most of my emphasis on the most important HERO item in the game - the teleport scroll. I then use that teleport scroll to participate in early skirmishes and fights, and sometimes quite surprisingly after a teamfight find myself with literally 3000 gold and 2 levels more than I had at the start of the fight, so I just buy myself a fucking mjollnir and then carry. Because HEROES can do that. Traditional support and securing freefarm for a carry is dead. The ones that carry are the ones that survive teamfights. | ||
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