• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:07
CEST 06:07
KST 13:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202547RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [Update] ShieldBattery: 1v1 Fastest Support! Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 677 users

6.82 Balance Changes and Discussion Thread - Page 107

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 105 106 107 108 109 114 Next
BillGates
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
471 Posts
September 29 2014 04:48 GMT
#2121
Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic, I haven't read on any website, on any forum or any social media anyone ever complaining that they could never comeback.

So why is this absurd comeback mechanic in the game? What is it supposed to fix, when nothing was broken?

Valve(I don't even know if Icerfog develops the game anymore, I haven't seen real proof) made pushing and 5 manning stronger in 6.81 when they buffed experience and gold gained to people of 3 and more and when they buffed tower bounty.

So it was their decision to have a ridiculous push meta, so to fix their own created problem they literally decided to break the game and completely destroy carefully designed balance over the past 10 years.

Dota hasn't been this imbalanced as with this patch since before 5.68 version.
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
September 29 2014 05:04 GMT
#2122
Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic

It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult?

Why do you think your base is elevated?

The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
BillGates
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
471 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 05:11:25
September 29 2014 05:10 GMT
#2123
On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic

It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult?

Why do you think your base is elevated?

The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.


That is not a mechanic, that is gameplay, part of the objectives, its wasn't designed as "we'll have these towers to have a comeback ability", it was designed 10 years ago where Eul's and Guinsoo said hey it feels nice to have these towers here to give vision and make center points for battles, lets make the map like this.

This new change is a mechanic, it is a specific comeback feature, it was put in as a comeback mecahnic, that is why its bad.
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
September 29 2014 05:11 GMT
#2124
That is not a mechanic, that is gameplay

Welp if you think there's a substantive difference more power to you I guess.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Fleetfeet
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Canada2550 Posts
September 29 2014 05:28 GMT
#2125
On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic

It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult?

Why do you think your base is elevated?

The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.


Dunno when killstreak gold was implemented, but hero kill xp based on levels is a remnant from Wc3 engine, and towers getting progressively more difficult was a logical part of progressive gameplay, not a "comeback mechanic". High ground, also, is a defender's advantage mechanic, not specifically a comeback mechanic.

The gold and exp bounties that are based on the disparity between your and their net values are specifically a comeback mechanic. You can cut words cutely, but there's no evading that point.
Oktyabr
Profile Joined July 2011
Singapore2234 Posts
September 29 2014 05:31 GMT
#2126
On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic

It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult?

Why do you think your base is elevated?

The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.


Base elevation and tougher towers are given to both sides unconditionally without them having to accomplish anything; those are hardly comeback mechanics since neither side was punished disproportionately simply for being ahead. Killstreak gold is the only valid form of the comeback mechanic since the player who did work in order to obtain a streak will now be punished way more by handing out way more gold.

This new mechanic in the latest patch is still stupidly strong at its current rate. The team that gets a significant advantage early game and hits level 11-13 while their enemy are 2 levels behind now needs to play extra safe, because a team wipe suddenly throws the enemy team to the level 15-17 range, which is even harder to make a comeback from. Gold and xp should be rated differently for this mechanic, so that people don't feed hardcore early game, pull off a smoke gank on a carry and automatically end up ahead as a result.
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
September 29 2014 05:56 GMT
#2127
6.82b:
http://store.steampowered.com/news/14529/

Further tweaks, nerfing the XP bonus.
Romanes eunt domus
BillGates
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
471 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 06:18:11
September 29 2014 06:17 GMT
#2128
On September 29 2014 14:56 BobMcJohnson wrote:
6.82b:
http://store.steampowered.com/news/14529/

Further tweaks, nerfing the XP bonus.


According to my calculations done in a hurry the new gold change is actually worse.

In fact even at 10k hero net worth you get at minimum of 1258 gold, before the kill streak. So if he has a say 7 heroes kill strak you get over 1600 gold.

At 20k net worth(35 minute game) you gain at minimum 1858 gold, before the kill streak. On a 7 kills kill streak you will get over 2500 gold.

I'll try and do few example calculations in full and post them here so everyone can read it.
infiniteJest
Profile Joined December 2013
United States187 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 06:22:20
September 29 2014 06:21 GMT
#2129
I am curious how the new 6.82b numbers compare to the 6.81 numbers?
"If equal affections cannot be, let the more loving one be me."
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 06:33:12
September 29 2014 06:32 GMT
#2130
The gold bonus calculation change now has a straight ratio of enemy:allies TNW in the place where it was the TNW difference divided by the total networth of both teams, -1 (min/max 0,1). It is then multiplied by victim networth, as was the case before, and then multiplied by what are now significantly reduced coefficients (but it is a different formula so the coefficients are scaling different numbers). Then some gold is added; this part is unchanged.

Scenario:

Victim NW: 20k
Enemy TNW: 40k
Allied TNW: 30k

1v1 kill, enemy level 20

Pre-patch: 1608g
Post-patch: 580g

Unless I messed something up. I will plug some stuff into a spreadsheet and give some more robust examples.

[Edit] I did not include streak gold.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
September 29 2014 06:32 GMT
#2131
On September 29 2014 15:17 BillGates wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2014 14:56 BobMcJohnson wrote:
6.82b:
http://store.steampowered.com/news/14529/

Further tweaks, nerfing the XP bonus.


According to my calculations done in a hurry the new gold change is actually worse.

In fact even at 10k hero net worth you get at minimum of 1258 gold, before the kill streak. So if he has a say 7 heroes kill strak you get over 1600 gold.

At 20k net worth(35 minute game) you gain at minimum 1858 gold, before the kill streak. On a 7 kills kill streak you will get over 2500 gold.

I'll try and do few example calculations in full and post them here so everyone can read it.

Your math is fucked.
6.82b Gold Formula
-------------------------
VictimLevel = Level of the Victim
VictimNW = The victim's Net Worth
EnemyTeamNW = Enemy team's total Net Worth
AlliedTeamNW = Your team's total Net Worth
NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) - 1 [Min 0, Max 1]
NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW

1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05
4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04
5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03


Dunno how you get your numbers. NWFactor = 0 if both teams have same networth and streak bonus max is 480
Romanes eunt domus
Shaella
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States14827 Posts
September 29 2014 06:34 GMT
#2132
On September 29 2014 14:10 BillGates wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:
Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic

It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult?

Why do you think your base is elevated?

The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.


That is not a mechanic, that is gameplay, part of the objectives, its wasn't designed as "we'll have these towers to have a comeback ability", it was designed 10 years ago where Eul's and Guinsoo said hey it feels nice to have these towers here to give vision and make center points for battles, lets make the map like this.

This new change is a mechanic, it is a specific comeback feature, it was put in as a comeback mecahnic, that is why its bad.

her you're probably new here so you should know that 10 years ago doto had a radically different map.

Roshan didn't even exist until the 4.xx era. Doto's map has changed millions of time. Towers have been moved. So much has been changed.

Nothing in dota exists as a result of random chance, but from hundreds upon hundreds of iterations. The game was designed to have these comeback points, they weren't just random.
don't tell me to provide a legend for those charts cause we already got shaella in this thread - eieio | Bulba is my waifu
BillGates
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
471 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 06:48:38
September 29 2014 06:41 GMT
#2133
Okay here is my first example:
Lets say you are on the losing team and playing Dire, so this is the amount of gold you would get forf killing a level 16 carry with 20k net worth in this patch:

Radiant net worth 40k vs Dire net worth 20k
Enemy victim is a 16 level carry with 20k net worth

1 hero: 1952 gold
2 hero: 1776 gold
3 hero: 1400 gold
4 hero: 1024 gold
5 hero: 824 gold

Last patch (6.82 updated):
1 hero: 2458
2 hero: 2042

First 6.82 patch with the first numbers:
1 hero: 4085
2 hero: 2909
3 hero: 2066
Shaella
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States14827 Posts
September 29 2014 06:45 GMT
#2134
ok you just named an impossible scenario
don't tell me to provide a legend for those charts cause we already got shaella in this thread - eieio | Bulba is my waifu
Exoteric
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia2330 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 06:48:48
September 29 2014 06:45 GMT
#2135
your numbers seem off to me, my calculation results in 1352 gold for 1 hero in 6.82b

assuming nwfactor = 20000 from your scenario

1 hero = 40 + 7*16 + 20,000*0.06 = 1352 not including streak

hell is other people
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 06:47:31
September 29 2014 06:47 GMT
#2136
On September 29 2014 15:32 BobMcJohnson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2014 15:17 BillGates wrote:
On September 29 2014 14:56 BobMcJohnson wrote:
6.82b:
http://store.steampowered.com/news/14529/

Further tweaks, nerfing the XP bonus.


According to my calculations done in a hurry the new gold change is actually worse.

In fact even at 10k hero net worth you get at minimum of 1258 gold, before the kill streak. So if he has a say 7 heroes kill strak you get over 1600 gold.

At 20k net worth(35 minute game) you gain at minimum 1858 gold, before the kill streak. On a 7 kills kill streak you will get over 2500 gold.

I'll try and do few example calculations in full and post them here so everyone can read it.

Your math is fucked.
Show nested quote +
6.82b Gold Formula
-------------------------
VictimLevel = Level of the Victim
VictimNW = The victim's Net Worth
EnemyTeamNW = Enemy team's total Net Worth
AlliedTeamNW = Your team's total Net Worth
NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) - 1 [Min 0, Max 1]
NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW

1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05
4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04
5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03


Dunno how you get your numbers. NWFactor = 0 if both teams have same networth and streak bonus max is 480

Yeah there is no way that the old formula gives more gold.

The new NWDifference caps out when the winning team has twice the net worth of the losing team. This is the point where the new gold given is CLOSEST to the old formula. At that point the old formula gives an NWDifference of 1/3.

For a 1-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 8.67% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 6% of it.
For a 2-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 7.33% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 6% of it.
For a 3-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 6% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 5% of it.
For a 4-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 4.67% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 4% of it.
For a 5-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 3.33% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 3% of it.

This is at the closest point of comparison between the two formulas. Past this point, the new formula is capped while the old formula continues to grow, and before this point, the new formula drops toward zero much more sharply as the net worths converge on one another.
Moderator
abar
Profile Joined May 2011
10 Posts
September 29 2014 06:56 GMT
#2137
Btw, can someone reduce his networth by dropping his items on the ground (from stash, or something like that).
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-29 07:08:17
September 29 2014 06:57 GMT
#2138
All right I think I did this correctly. This table shows ONLY the NWFactor*AllyCountCoefficient factor. This is the factor that would have multiplied the victim's networth before. It is ONLY to demonstrate what has happened to this RATIO, which is in fact the part of the formula that changed.

If I fucked up my math somewhere please let me know and I'll adjust my spreadsheet.

[image loading]

What would happen with this ratio is it would then be multiplied times the victim's networth and then the flat gold plus x*level gold would be added. That part is unchanged.

(Yes, you will have to click through)

[Edit] Updated for formatting.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
September 29 2014 07:01 GMT
#2139
You should color the part where NWDifference caps out to 1 too.
Romanes eunt domus
Exoteric
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia2330 Posts
September 29 2014 07:03 GMT
#2140
looks good to me, basically this means that everything got tuned down and that you won't get absurd amounts of gold any more if you pick off somebody when their team is significantly ahead
hell is other people
Prev 1 105 106 107 108 109 114 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 53m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft472
Livibee 123
Ketroc 65
StarCraft: Brood War
Light 3351
Leta 593
ggaemo 215
Noble 79
Sharp 62
NaDa 43
Icarus 8
Britney 0
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1105
League of Legends
JimRising 775
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K953
Other Games
summit1g12424
hungrybox320
ViBE202
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1748
BasetradeTV33
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 61
• practicex 45
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki17
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra1489
• Stunt140
Other Games
• Shiphtur307
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
5h 53m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 6h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.