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Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic, I haven't read on any website, on any forum or any social media anyone ever complaining that they could never comeback.
So why is this absurd comeback mechanic in the game? What is it supposed to fix, when nothing was broken?
Valve(I don't even know if Icerfog develops the game anymore, I haven't seen real proof) made pushing and 5 manning stronger in 6.81 when they buffed experience and gold gained to people of 3 and more and when they buffed tower bounty.
So it was their decision to have a ridiculous push meta, so to fix their own created problem they literally decided to break the game and completely destroy carefully designed balance over the past 10 years.
Dota hasn't been this imbalanced as with this patch since before 5.68 version.
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Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic
It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult?
Why do you think your base is elevated?
The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.
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On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult? Why do you think your base is elevated? The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.
That is not a mechanic, that is gameplay, part of the objectives, its wasn't designed as "we'll have these towers to have a comeback ability", it was designed 10 years ago where Eul's and Guinsoo said hey it feels nice to have these towers here to give vision and make center points for battles, lets make the map like this.
This new change is a mechanic, it is a specific comeback feature, it was put in as a comeback mecahnic, that is why its bad.
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That is not a mechanic, that is gameplay
Welp if you think there's a substantive difference more power to you I guess.
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On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult? Why do you think your base is elevated? The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.
Dunno when killstreak gold was implemented, but hero kill xp based on levels is a remnant from Wc3 engine, and towers getting progressively more difficult was a logical part of progressive gameplay, not a "comeback mechanic". High ground, also, is a defender's advantage mechanic, not specifically a comeback mechanic.
The gold and exp bounties that are based on the disparity between your and their net values are specifically a comeback mechanic. You can cut words cutely, but there's no evading that point.
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On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult? Why do you think your base is elevated? The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning.
Base elevation and tougher towers are given to both sides unconditionally without them having to accomplish anything; those are hardly comeback mechanics since neither side was punished disproportionately simply for being ahead. Killstreak gold is the only valid form of the comeback mechanic since the player who did work in order to obtain a streak will now be punished way more by handing out way more gold.
This new mechanic in the latest patch is still stupidly strong at its current rate. The team that gets a significant advantage early game and hits level 11-13 while their enemy are 2 levels behind now needs to play extra safe, because a team wipe suddenly throws the enemy team to the level 15-17 range, which is even harder to make a comeback from. Gold and xp should be rated differently for this mechanic, so that people don't feed hardcore early game, pull off a smoke gank on a carry and automatically end up ahead as a result.
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According to my calculations done in a hurry the new gold change is actually worse.
In fact even at 10k hero net worth you get at minimum of 1258 gold, before the kill streak. So if he has a say 7 heroes kill strak you get over 1600 gold.
At 20k net worth(35 minute game) you gain at minimum 1858 gold, before the kill streak. On a 7 kills kill streak you will get over 2500 gold.
I'll try and do few example calculations in full and post them here so everyone can read it.
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I am curious how the new 6.82b numbers compare to the 6.81 numbers?
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The gold bonus calculation change now has a straight ratio of enemy:allies TNW in the place where it was the TNW difference divided by the total networth of both teams, -1 (min/max 0,1). It is then multiplied by victim networth, as was the case before, and then multiplied by what are now significantly reduced coefficients (but it is a different formula so the coefficients are scaling different numbers). Then some gold is added; this part is unchanged.
Scenario:
Victim NW: 20k
Enemy TNW: 40k
Allied TNW: 30k
1v1 kill, enemy level 20
Pre-patch: 1608g
Post-patch: 580g
Unless I messed something up. I will plug some stuff into a spreadsheet and give some more robust examples.
[Edit] I did not include streak gold.
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On September 29 2014 15:17 BillGates wrote:According to my calculations done in a hurry the new gold change is actually worse. In fact even at 10k hero net worth you get at minimum of 1258 gold, before the kill streak. So if he has a say 7 heroes kill strak you get over 1600 gold. At 20k net worth(35 minute game) you gain at minimum 1858 gold, before the kill streak. On a 7 kills kill streak you will get over 2500 gold. I'll try and do few example calculations in full and post them here so everyone can read it.
Your math is fucked.
6.82b Gold Formula
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VictimLevel = Level of the Victim
VictimNW = The victim's Net Worth
EnemyTeamNW = Enemy team's total Net Worth
AlliedTeamNW = Your team's total Net Worth
NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) - 1 [Min 0, Max 1]
NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW
1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05
4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04
5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03
Dunno how you get your numbers. NWFactor = 0 if both teams have same networth and streak bonus max is 480
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On September 29 2014 14:10 BillGates wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 14:04 FHDH wrote:Dota didn't need a comeback mechanic It already had multiple. What do you think killstreak gold was for? What did you think hero kill xp based on relative levels was for? Why did you think towers got progressively more difficult? Why do you think your base is elevated? The game was always designed to get harder the closer you are to winning. That is not a mechanic, that is gameplay, part of the objectives, its wasn't designed as "we'll have these towers to have a comeback ability", it was designed 10 years ago where Eul's and Guinsoo said hey it feels nice to have these towers here to give vision and make center points for battles, lets make the map like this. This new change is a mechanic, it is a specific comeback feature, it was put in as a comeback mecahnic, that is why its bad.
her you're probably new here so you should know that 10 years ago doto had a radically different map.
Roshan didn't even exist until the 4.xx era. Doto's map has changed millions of time. Towers have been moved. So much has been changed.
Nothing in dota exists as a result of random chance, but from hundreds upon hundreds of iterations. The game was designed to have these comeback points, they weren't just random.
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Okay here is my first example:
Lets say you are on the losing team and playing Dire, so this is the amount of gold you would get forf killing a level 16 carry with 20k net worth in this patch:
Radiant net worth 40k vs Dire net worth 20k
Enemy victim is a 16 level carry with 20k net worth
1 hero: 1952 gold
2 hero: 1776 gold
3 hero: 1400 gold
4 hero: 1024 gold
5 hero: 824 gold
Last patch (6.82 updated):
1 hero: 2458
2 hero: 2042
First 6.82 patch with the first numbers:
1 hero: 4085
2 hero: 2909
3 hero: 2066
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ok you just named an impossible scenario
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your numbers seem off to me, my calculation results in 1352 gold for 1 hero in 6.82b
assuming nwfactor = 20000 from your scenario
1 hero = 40 + 7*16 + 20,000*0.06 = 1352 not including streak
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United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2014 15:32 BobMcJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 15:17 BillGates wrote:According to my calculations done in a hurry the new gold change is actually worse. In fact even at 10k hero net worth you get at minimum of 1258 gold, before the kill streak. So if he has a say 7 heroes kill strak you get over 1600 gold. At 20k net worth(35 minute game) you gain at minimum 1858 gold, before the kill streak. On a 7 kills kill streak you will get over 2500 gold. I'll try and do few example calculations in full and post them here so everyone can read it. Your math is fucked. Show nested quote +6.82b Gold Formula
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VictimLevel = Level of the Victim
VictimNW = The victim's Net Worth
EnemyTeamNW = Enemy team's total Net Worth
AlliedTeamNW = Your team's total Net Worth
NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) - 1 [Min 0, Max 1]
NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW
1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05
4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04
5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03
Dunno how you get your numbers. NWFactor = 0 if both teams have same networth and streak bonus max is 480
Yeah there is no way that the old formula gives more gold.
The new NWDifference caps out when the winning team has twice the net worth of the losing team. This is the point where the new gold given is CLOSEST to the old formula. At that point the old formula gives an NWDifference of 1/3.
For a 1-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 8.67% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 6% of it.
For a 2-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 7.33% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 6% of it.
For a 3-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 6% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 5% of it.
For a 4-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 4.67% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 4% of it.
For a 5-hero kill at this point, the old formula would give you 3.33% of the victim's net worth as a catch-up bonus. The new formula gives you 3% of it.
This is at the closest point of comparison between the two formulas. Past this point, the new formula is capped while the old formula continues to grow, and before this point, the new formula drops toward zero much more sharply as the net worths converge on one another.
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Btw, can someone reduce his networth by dropping his items on the ground (from stash, or something like that).
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All right I think I did this correctly. This table shows ONLY the NWFactor*AllyCountCoefficient factor. This is the factor that would have multiplied the victim's networth before. It is ONLY to demonstrate what has happened to this RATIO, which is in fact the part of the formula that changed.
If I fucked up my math somewhere please let me know and I'll adjust my spreadsheet.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CnmP8Y1.png)
What would happen with this ratio is it would then be multiplied times the victim's networth and then the flat gold plus x*level gold would be added. That part is unchanged.
(Yes, you will have to click through)
[Edit] Updated for formatting.
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You should color the part where NWDifference caps out to 1 too.
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looks good to me, basically this means that everything got tuned down and that you won't get absurd amounts of gold any more if you pick off somebody when their team is significantly ahead
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EPT
