EPTOn July 25 2012 05:13 HypernovA wrote:
So only pro players or people with scene knowledge can talk about the game? I can talk about the game with my opinion. You have every right to disagree with me. I like turtling up and farming on hard carries.
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On July 25 2012 05:06 superstartran wrote:
You're lack of following the DotA 1 scene is exactly why you aren't qualified to talk about what is good or bad for the game. No one enjoyed the turtle meta game. No one. Not even the players that abused the living snot out of it (EHOME, other chinese teams, Yamateh's teams, etc). You keep saying "WELL WE SHOULD HAVE EVERYTHING BE OP" and yet fail to realize that IceFrog has made decisions to curb idiotic gameplay in the game on numerous occasions.
If you really enjoy watching ZSMJ right click creeps for 60 minutes be my guest. But I'm pretty sure about 95% of the rest of the dota population didn't enjoy it. That is not to say it didn't take skill; it took alot of skill to pull off a highly executed turtle strat. But it certainly wasn't very enjoyable to watch or play, thus the nerfs to blade mail, numerous nerfs to Razer (who was abusing blademail to turtle midgame for his late game carries), indirect nerfs to SF (introduction of smoke, more heroes that can solo against him), etc. etc.
On July 25 2012 05:04 HypernovA wrote:
So by this logic all push strats should be nerfed? It's boring to watch, boring to play and stupid. What defines a non stupid strategy? And just because I didnt really follow the scene in dota 1 doesn't mean I have not played this game for a long time. No need for the condenscending tone.
On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:
Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams.
Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid.
On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:
Just tell me this:
Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example.
On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:
Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you.
On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:
And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger?
You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't.
On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:
PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP.
On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:
She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often?
She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered.
On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc.
Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2.
[quote]
She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc.
Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2.
She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often?
She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered.
PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP.
And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger?
You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't.
Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you.
Just tell me this:
Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example.
Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams.
On July 25 2012 04:54 HypernovA wrote:
I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance.
On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:
Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you.
Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not.
On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:
And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger?
You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't.
On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:
PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP.
On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:
She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often?
She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered.
On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc.
Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2.
[quote]
She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc.
Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2.
She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often?
She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered.
PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP.
And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger?
You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't.
Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you.
On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:
This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here
On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:
You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game?
LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game.
And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds.
On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:
So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1?
And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion.
People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team.
On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc.
Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2.
[quote]
She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc.
Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2.
So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1?
And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion.
People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team.
You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game?
LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game.
And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds.
This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here
Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not.
I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance.
Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid.
So by this logic all push strats should be nerfed? It's boring to watch, boring to play and stupid. What defines a non stupid strategy? And just because I didnt really follow the scene in dota 1 doesn't mean I have not played this game for a long time. No need for the condenscending tone.
You're lack of following the DotA 1 scene is exactly why you aren't qualified to talk about what is good or bad for the game. No one enjoyed the turtle meta game. No one. Not even the players that abused the living snot out of it (EHOME, other chinese teams, Yamateh's teams, etc). You keep saying "WELL WE SHOULD HAVE EVERYTHING BE OP" and yet fail to realize that IceFrog has made decisions to curb idiotic gameplay in the game on numerous occasions.
If you really enjoy watching ZSMJ right click creeps for 60 minutes be my guest. But I'm pretty sure about 95% of the rest of the dota population didn't enjoy it. That is not to say it didn't take skill; it took alot of skill to pull off a highly executed turtle strat. But it certainly wasn't very enjoyable to watch or play, thus the nerfs to blade mail, numerous nerfs to Razer (who was abusing blademail to turtle midgame for his late game carries), indirect nerfs to SF (introduction of smoke, more heroes that can solo against him), etc. etc.
So only pro players or people with scene knowledge can talk about the game? I can talk about the game with my opinion. You have every right to disagree with me. I like turtling up and farming on hard carries.
And unfourtanately pros and IceFrog disagreed with you. And it's likely they are going to do significant changes to Lycan to bring him down. Not only is he pretty damn close to OP (he warrants a ban virtually every game in both DotA 1 and DotA 2), he also makes the game unfun in numerous ways. He discourages player interaction, which is a big no no.
Every time a hero makes the game unfun to play at the competitive level AND unfun to watch, that hero has been nerfed. Into like... oblivion. Razer used to be a staple pick all the time, and yet you rarely see him now. That is because his old core (Vanguard/Blademail) has been nerfed heavily. Why? Because watching Razer suicide and buyback to protect his carry was one of the most idiotic things I've ever watched. It was clever and intelligent play, but it was certainly not entertaining at all.
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