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On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered.
PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP.
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On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP.
And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger?
You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't.
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On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds.
This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of nerfing everything should not be used here
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On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't.
Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. TA was already getting picked alot in the recent months due to numerous amounts of buffs to her. Now you add in a huge extra burst from Meld, along with quriky mechanics that let her solo a her she has no business soloing against (Invoker), and you got a hero that is insanely close to OP.
On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds. This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here
Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not.
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On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you.
Just tell me this:
Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example.
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On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds. This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not.
I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance.
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On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Just tell me this: Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example.
Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams.
On July 25 2012 04:54 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds. This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not. I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance.
Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid.
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lycan was dominating even in the last patch, why wasnt he nerfed much in the most recent one then
also Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her
so does brood, thats not what makes her op
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United States47024 Posts
On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:
Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams.
No, at least recently TA is not a hero that's been used in Chinese DotA 1.
By and large, it's SEA in which she was most popular.
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On July 25 2012 04:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:
Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams. No, at least recently TA is not a hero that's been used in Chinese DotA 1. By and large, it's SEA in which she was most popular.
Recently she's been getting picked up on the occasion in Chinese DotA. LGD has picked her a few times, as well as Tyloo. It's a rare occurrence, but it does occur. You are correct in that she is a much more popular pick in SEA.
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On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Just tell me this: Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example. Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams.
I don't remember her being picked at all by chinese team in BTS, but I didn't catch all games. I'm 100% sure that plenty of games involving them she was completelly ignored though, including the ones today. In the Mouz vs iG games, didn't Mouz pick her instead of iG for example?
Naga on the other hand, is something you see quite often as either a ban or a very early pick. Lycan, Invoker, Furion, Dark Seer... All where banned or picked much more often in the chinese games I watched.
You said LGD liked her, was she even considered in todays games versus Darer? I couldn't catch every picking stage, but I don't think she even made an apearance.
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On July 25 2012 04:58 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Just tell me this: Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example. Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams. I don't remember her being picked at all by chinese team in BTS, but I didn't catch all games. I'm 100% sure that plenty of games involving them she was completelly ignored though, including the ones today. In the Mouz vs iG games, didn't Mouz pick her instead of iG for example? Naga on the other hand, is something you see quite often as either a ban or a very early pick. Lycan, Invoker, Furion, Dark Seer... All where banned or picked much more often in the chinese games I watched.
DotA 1; TA is significantly picked more often, in particular by the SEA teams. She is a rare pick up in Chinese gank style teams, but it's rare. That being said, she is picked often by teams like MUFC, etc. in DotA 1 quite often, and sees success all the time.
Not just that, Naga is a hero that the Chinese are very familiar with. They aren't as familiar with Lanaya, espec the most recently buffed Lanaya. No one is. That doesn't mean the hero doesn't need significant fixing. Her extra shennangians make her borderline OP because she wins match-ups in lanes she isn't suppose to. Even against her direct lane counters, she does so much burst all she needs is one disabler to gank her lane and it snow balls into out of control.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:
Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid.
It's extremely hasty to call TA in her current form "bad for the game" when she's only been in DotA 2 for 2 weeks. Most of those changes you're referring to came after many months of being played out and thoroughly explored in competitive play--not as a kneejerk reaction 2 weeks after a patch.
Though I'm fairly certain that some of her changes are simply unintended. I'd expect her to get tweaked over the next patch or two just to bring her more in line with her DotA 1 functionality, just like the Blink Dagger change.
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On July 25 2012 05:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:
Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid. It's extremely hasty to call TA in her current form "bad for the game" when she's only been in DotA 2 for 2 weeks. Most of those changes you're referring to came after many months of being played out and thoroughly explored in competitive play--not as a kneejerk reaction 2 weeks after a patch. Though I'm fairly certain that some of her changes are simply unintended. I'd expect her to get tweaked over the next patch or two just to bring her more in line with her DotA 1 functionality, just like the Blink Dagger change.
Not talking about TA; talking about Lycan. Everyone knows Lycan is stupid. It's boring to watch, you know exactly what you're gonna get, and both sides know what's going to happen. More often times than not, Lycan still wins no matter how many counters you pick too. Not only is Lycan sitting on the line of OP'ness, he's also sitting on the line of idiotic gameplay.
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On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Just tell me this: Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example. Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams. Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:54 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds. This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not. I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance. Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid.
So by this logic all push strats should be nerfed? It's boring to watch, boring to play and stupid. What defines a non stupid strategy? And just because I didnt really follow the scene in dota 1 doesn't mean I have not played this game for a long time. No need for the condenscending tone.
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On July 25 2012 05:04 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Just tell me this: Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example. Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams. On July 25 2012 04:54 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds. This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not. I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance. Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid. So by this logic all push strats should be nerfed? It's boring to watch, boring to play and stupid. What defines a non stupid strategy? And just because I didnt really follow the scene in dota 1 doesn't mean I have not played this game for a long time. No need for the condenscending tone.
You're lack of following the DotA 1 scene is exactly why you aren't qualified to talk about what is good or bad for the game. No one enjoyed the turtle meta game. No one. Not even the players that abused the living snot out of it (EHOME, other chinese teams, Yamateh's teams, etc). You keep saying "WELL WE SHOULD HAVE EVERYTHING BE OP" and yet fail to realize that IceFrog has made decisions to curb idiotic gameplay in the game on numerous occasions.
If you really enjoy watching ZSMJ right click creeps for 60 minutes be my guest. But I'm pretty sure about 95% of the rest of the dota population didn't enjoy it. That is not to say it didn't take skill; it took alot of skill to pull off a highly executed turtle strat. But it certainly wasn't very enjoyable to watch or play, thus the nerfs to blade mail, numerous nerfs to Razer (who was abusing blademail to turtle midgame for his late game carries), indirect nerfs to SF (introduction of smoke, more heroes that can solo against him), etc. etc.
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Everyone was extremelly quick to pick up Dark Seer when they realized his potential. Even in chinese Dota 1 I believe? But someone else with more knowledge of that scene can confirm or deny it. He went very quickly to an inta-ban. Ussually the reaction is to ban the hero you know is strong but don't know how to play. You are not sure on how to play against it because it was such a rare pick but you don't want to give your oponent a strong hero they may actually know how to play. This didn't happen to Lanaya. She remains a ocasional pick like she was in Dota 1. If everyone agreed she was extremelly OP, they wouldn't risk giving her away every game just because the oponent may not be comfortable with her. Every team would be doing their best to learn her and make use of that OPness.
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On July 25 2012 05:08 SKC wrote:
Everyone was extremelly quick to pick up Dark Seer when they realized his potential. Even in chinese Dota 1 I believe? But someone else with more knowledge of that scene can confirm or deny it. He went very quickly to an inta-ban. Ussually the reaction is to ban the hero you know is strong but don't know how to play. You are not sure on how to play against it because it was such a rare pick but you don't want to give your oponent a strong hero they may actually know how to play. This didn't happen to Lanaya. She remains a ocasional pick like she was in Dota 1. If everyone agreed she was extremelly OP, they wouldn't risk giving her away every game just because the oponent may not be comfortable with her. Every team would be doing their best to learn her and make use of that OPness.
Unfamiliarity plus lack of knowledge of her mechanics is what makes her likely unused. I bet you most people didn't even know you could avoid Pugna lifedrain with her Refract, let alone the fact that her meld is doing stupid amounts of damage. Dark Seer was not a quick pick-up at all; it took numerous amounts of buffs plus metagame shifts to make Dark Seer a legitimate top tier pick. Lanaya hasn't become a good hero until the numerous amount of buffs in the previous DotA 1 patches, and the numerous amount of stealth buffs in DotA 2 send her over the top.
People probably still think Lanaya is the same from DotA 1; she isn't. There are so many numerous changes to the way she works that she just steam rolls everyone into oblivion.
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On July 25 2012 05:06 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:04 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:55 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:52 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. Just tell me this: Why isn't she picked or banned at all quite often? If only hard counters stop her, she would be a very strong latter pick for example. Because not many European players play TA; she was never a part of the European metagame. The statistics from Dota-Academy are heavily biased towards European metagame style; she's not a part of that. In DotA 1, her statistics are vastly different (without all the massive amount of stealth buffs). She is picked more often, especially by certain Chinese teams and Phillipino teams. On July 25 2012 04:54 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:51 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:49 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:46 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 SKC wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. She was picked 15 times and has 8 wins acording to Dota Academy. I wouldn't really say that indicates she is clearly OP in pro games. If she was, why aren't people banning or picking her at all quite often? She was only banned 7 times. Naga was released later and already has 9 bans, which probally don't include today's games, where she was banned or picked and TA wasn't even considered. PA has a 67% win percentage, doesn't mean she's OP. And very few games. PA also is never banned and hardly ever picked. TA also is only ocasionally banned or picked. Lycan, Furion, Dark Seer, etc. are almost always banned or picks. Which ones are stronger? You are the one that said she dominated pro games, I only brought that statistic to show she really didn't. Look at the games she was in. Every game she won there was no direct lane counter to her. And she flat out destroyed everyone. In the games she lost, not only did the TA play bad, there was also a direct lane counter that also had immense amount of help to drag her down. Her sample size is to small to declare whether or not she is OP/UP based on statistics, but if you're telling me a hero which has significant upgrades over an already competitively viable hero from DotA 1 isn't close to OP, I don't know what to tell you. On July 25 2012 04:51 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:41 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:32 HypernovA wrote:On July 25 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On July 25 2012 04:10 SKC wrote:
Well, she isn't really banned/picked all that often in pro games and she is far from the top when looking at win rates even in pubs. I don't really think it is the time to start begging for nerfs, there are stronger heroes in the game at the moment. She is clearly OP. Virtually every pro game she is in, she flat out dominates if a direct lane counter is not present in her lane. I have yet to see a game where TA loses without a direct lane counter like Veno, Leshrac, etc. Her burst is insanely higher early game than it is in DotA 1, and her scaling is through the roof. Alot of the bad mechanics of the WC3 engine kept the hero in check, and it's obvious that there's alot wrong with the current incarnation of TA in DotA 2. So she's the same as in Wc3 without the bullshit limitations. Why are people not crying about kunkka's tide bringer critting when it did not in dota 1? And you have to commit a ton of resources for a lot of heroes. Lycan, morph, anti Mage, furion. People rarely played TA in WC3 so it's natural she is strong right now. And of course she will dominate without a counter pick. Any hero will dominate their lane if there is no counter to them. She is fine. Just wards, shut her early game down and play as a team. You mean the same bullshit limitations that prevented her from doing blink dagger shennangians (which was fixed), her avoiding on damage trigger spells like cold snap / life drain (which is obvious unintended), and do close to a 100 extra damage off her meld early game? LOL. Bitch is OP, and is severely broken when you compare her from DotA 1. Her damage is significantly lower in DotA 1 in various ways. The amount of stealth buffs is hilarious that were given to her. She is significantly more powerful early game than the original TA, which translates into much stronger mid to mid late game. And pretending that Lycan isn't hellah stupid is funny too. A hero that completely ignores team fights and just pushes towers and wipes them out within under 5 seconds. This is what makes this game balanced and fun. Every hero has their own opness. Lycan is just as stupid but people adapt. Brood war has a ton of broken shit for each race but it makes the game fun. The Sc2 mentality of needing everything should not be used here Lycan is neither fun to play as or against, and isn't even fun to watch. He flat out dominates games to the point it is stupid. He will get nerfed in the next big balance patch like it or not. I don't understand your mentality of " they had a ton of help to bring her down." This game is not 1v1; it's 5v5. Lycan has already been nerfed in the last patch with the howl and saying that is not fun to use him is completely subjective and does not indicate balance. Someone obviously either never played DotA 1 or hasn't been playing for very long. There are many heroes/items that were "balanced" and yet Icefrog made all attempts to nerf them into oblivion because they were bad for the game. Medusa, Drow Ranger, Razer, Blademail, etc. are all very good examples of this. IceFrog purposely nerfed all of these after the display of the turtle metagame with the triple carry/dual carry strats that were displayed at WDC. Why? It wasn't because the game wasn't balanced; it was because it was boring to watch, boring to play, and was stupid. So by this logic all push strats should be nerfed? It's boring to watch, boring to play and stupid. What defines a non stupid strategy? And just because I didnt really follow the scene in dota 1 doesn't mean I have not played this game for a long time. No need for the condenscending tone. You're lack of following the DotA 1 scene is exactly why you aren't qualified to talk about what is good or bad for the game. No one enjoyed the turtle meta game. No one. Not even the players that abused the living snot out of it (EHOME, other chinese teams, Yamateh's teams, etc). You keep saying "WELL WE SHOULD HAVE EVERYTHING BE OP" and yet fail to realize that IceFrog has made decisions to curb idiotic gameplay in the game on numerous occasions. If you really enjoy watching ZSMJ right click creeps for 60 minutes be my guest. But I'm pretty sure about 95% of the rest of the dota population didn't enjoy it. That is not to say it didn't take skill; it took alot of skill to pull off a highly executed turtle strat. But it certainly wasn't very enjoyable to watch or play, thus the nerfs to blade mail, numerous nerfs to Razer (who was abusing blademail to turtle midgame for his late game carries), indirect nerfs to SF (introduction of smoke, more heroes that can solo against him), etc. etc.
So only pro players or people with scene knowledge can talk about the game? I can talk about the game with my opinion. You have every right to disagree with me. I like turtling up and farming on hard carries.
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Sorry to divulge from this wonderful rant on TA, but does anyone know of any recent progames involving Luna? Win or loss, don't really care, I just haven't been able to find any myself (or i'm not looking in the right place >.>).
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EPT
