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On September 03 2014 23:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 23:30 harodihg wrote:
Making a team unable to TP to T1's changes the game to make "push" strategies a lot worse I think because the opposing team can trade initial towers a lot easier without worrying about losing a fight giving them the ability to keep up on gold and removing space on the map for the other team I think it has too many other adverse effects. Namely, early ganking becomes way too powerful because if you can't TP to countergank on T1 towers, early ganks are insanely hard to defend.
Pretty much agreed.
Also playing mid would be a nightmare.
A lot of the reason pushes are really strong this patch has to do with the list of "OP" heroes at the moment.
I would like to see offlane get harder again.
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On September 03 2014 23:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 23:34 Plansix wrote:
One minute jungle makes it so blocking camps is that much more powerful and is a huge nerf to a lot of jungle based heroes. If you could get block the first spawn, that could be two minutes where the hero gets zero or limited farm in the game. We already don't see enough chen.
I think harodhig's most interested in the pull camp for this one. Strictly speaking his goal could be achieved if only the pull camp didn't spawn at 0:30 and everything else did. But overall I think that would be really clunky and unintuitive.
I don't see the pull camp as a huge issue because its still has the RNG aspect getting a useless spawn that just pushes the wave. Sure you get lucking, but blocking that camp has always been part of the game. I don't think nerfing every jungle hero is worth the "issues" caused by the pull camps.
Really just buffing other heroes and dealing with blink would do a lot more than nerfing everything into the ground.
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I would not change blink, I love it this way. Just nerf the range of some abilities like doom should be prenerf lasso range because fuck this guy. Many heroes lack of real commitment into fights because they can escape so easily. Nerfing dagger subsequently nerfs DoTs and I find them rather weak compared to instant damage already.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On September 03 2014 23:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 23:37 TheYango wrote:On September 03 2014 23:34 Plansix wrote:
One minute jungle makes it so blocking camps is that much more powerful and is a huge nerf to a lot of jungle based heroes. If you could get block the first spawn, that could be two minutes where the hero gets zero or limited farm in the game. We already don't see enough chen.
I think harodhig's most interested in the pull camp for this one. Strictly speaking his goal could be achieved if only the pull camp didn't spawn at 0:30 and everything else did. But overall I think that would be really clunky and unintuitive. I don't see the pull camp as a huge issue because its still has the RNG aspect getting a useless spawn that just pushes the wave. Sure you get lucking, but blocking that camp has always been part of the game. I don't think nerfing every jungle hero is worth the "issues" caused by the pull camps. Really just buffing other heroes and dealing with blink would do a lot more than nerfing everything into the ground.
you can always pull through off that first spawn
whoever was saying bts was slacking, LD is casting right now ^_^
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United States47024 Posts
On September 03 2014 23:49 nojok wrote:
I would not change blink, I love it this way. Just nerf the range of some abilities like doom should be prenerf lasso range because fuck this guy. Many heroes lack of real commitment into fights because they can escape so easily. Nerfing dagger subsequently nerfs DoTs and I find them rather weak compared to instant damage already.
Dagger's problem right now is it's application to situations outside of it's basic use case for general mobility. It impacts the overall map mobility of teams too much when the item can get such a huge chunk of it's value out of just being used on CD to move around the map. The mana cost was a limiting factor on this use before.
As an aside, there was a discussion previously about nerfing dagger range/removing the penalty for over-blinking. I personally don't like this idea, because the current Blink range is in the sweet spot where Blink's true max range is longer than Smoke reveal range, but over-Blinking causes the range to be shorter than that. It's a good balance for the item's interaction with Smoke.
Nerfing Blink range is specifically going to hurt those Blink heroes that have near-melee range skills that need the Blink setup because they'll pop out of Smoke before they jump. Many of these heroes (SK, Shaker, Centaur, Slardar, etc.) are specifically the heroes that buffing Blink was meant to help in the first place.
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On September 04 2014 00:02 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 23:41 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2014 23:37 TheYango wrote:On September 03 2014 23:34 Plansix wrote:
One minute jungle makes it so blocking camps is that much more powerful and is a huge nerf to a lot of jungle based heroes. If you could get block the first spawn, that could be two minutes where the hero gets zero or limited farm in the game. We already don't see enough chen.
I think harodhig's most interested in the pull camp for this one. Strictly speaking his goal could be achieved if only the pull camp didn't spawn at 0:30 and everything else did. But overall I think that would be really clunky and unintuitive. I don't see the pull camp as a huge issue because its still has the RNG aspect getting a useless spawn that just pushes the wave. Sure you get lucking, but blocking that camp has always been part of the game. I don't think nerfing every jungle hero is worth the "issues" caused by the pull camps. Really just buffing other heroes and dealing with blink would do a lot more than nerfing everything into the ground. you can always pull through off that first spawn
Yeah, but the pull through is always way easier to contest, especially on dire side, but I get your point. I just don't think nerfing pulling will slow down the game or prevent the death push. If anything it will speed it up because the off lane will reach the prime pushing point faster.
Edit: I could live in a world with a blink dagger with a 20 second cool down. I don't think it should be used to move around the map as much as start fights. Because we love fights.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
i agree with comeh about offlane
that shit is pretty stupid atm
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Just make blink range better on melee heroes than on ranged.
problem solved
Actually maybe not iunno. It depends if you think farming doom with a blink is a problem or not. I think it's reasonable.
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On September 04 2014 00:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 23:49 nojok wrote:
I would not change blink, I love it this way. Just nerf the range of some abilities like doom should be prenerf lasso range because fuck this guy. Many heroes lack of real commitment into fights because they can escape so easily. Nerfing dagger subsequently nerfs DoTs and I find them rather weak compared to instant damage already. Dagger's problem right now is it's application to situations outside of it's basic use case for general mobility. It impacts the overall map mobility of teams too much when the item can get such a huge chunk of it's value out of just being used on CD to move around the map. The mana cost was a limiting factor on this use before.
the mana cost was only a problem for some heros, it was not a good way of limiting blink as a lot of int heros could spam it like everyone can spam it now. Also it is odd is that some heros got the blink mana cost added to their abilities (Batrider) while others didn't (tinker).
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To be honest, I don't think limiting tinker through mana cost would have done anything. He gives no fucks about 75 mana.
I don't know what to do with tinker beyond change some of his abilities so they do different damage(aka, march to magic so BKB/pipe does something) and maybe nerf laser so people can auto attack him.
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Doom range nerf sounds pretty legit. What's the range on it now? 550.
Alright, that definitely deserves a nerf (though I'm biased). For refernece, Sunder has 250 range, Lasso 100, Open Wounds is 200/300/400/500. Hell yeah, this is a nerf that I'll happily agree with.
the hammer nerf on Magnus lessened the RP stun time & damage, effectively making level 6 solo kills much harder. This could be in the same vein.
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Tinker gives a lot of fucks about 75 mana considering how often that hero blinks
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I wonder what will happen to void once they fix(assuming they get around to it) the whole paused state thing.
It would be a huge buff to void, and he obviously doesn't need it.
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On September 04 2014 00:21 Plansix wrote:
To be honest, I don't think limiting tinker through mana cost would have done anything. He gives no fucks about 75 mana.
I don't know what to do with tinker beyond change some of his abilities so they do different damage(aka, march to magic so BKB/pipe does something) and maybe nerf laser so people can auto attack him.
you underestimate how much a manapool / rearm mana increase nerf would do to tinker.
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On September 04 2014 00:23 Sn0_Man wrote:
Tinker gives a lot of fucks about 75 mana considering how often that hero blinks
That part is true, but adding it on to his costs of spells wouldn't be a huge deal(unless it all was added to march, then I think it would matter a lot for the way people use him).
On September 04 2014 00:26 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 00:21 Plansix wrote:
To be honest, I don't think limiting tinker through mana cost would have done anything. He gives no fucks about 75 mana.
I don't know what to do with tinker beyond change some of his abilities so they do different damage(aka, march to magic so BKB/pipe does something) and maybe nerf laser so people can auto attack him. you underestimate how much a manapool / rearm mana increase nerf would do to tinker.
75 mana across all 4 of his abilities wouldn't matter that much. If it all was dumped into march/rearm, it would be a big deal, that much I agree on.
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On September 04 2014 00:21 Plansix wrote:
To be honest, I don't think limiting tinker through mana cost would have done anything. He gives no fucks about 75 mana.
I don't know what to do with tinker beyond change some of his abilities so they do different damage(aka, march to magic so BKB/pipe does something) and maybe nerf laser so people can auto attack him.
Rearm no longer works on Blink.
There ya go.
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On September 04 2014 00:24 Unleashing wrote:
I wonder what will happen to void once they fix(assuming they get around to it) the whole paused state thing.
It would be a huge buff to void, and he obviously doesn't need it.
I hope it never does. Nevermind that Void is just too powerful as it is, it also rewards bad gameplay. What's the sense in stacking all the stuns?
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On September 04 2014 00:28 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 00:21 Plansix wrote:
To be honest, I don't think limiting tinker through mana cost would have done anything. He gives no fucks about 75 mana.
I don't know what to do with tinker beyond change some of his abilities so they do different damage(aka, march to magic so BKB/pipe does something) and maybe nerf laser so people can auto attack him. Rearm no longer works on Blink. There ya go.
The sad part is blink would still be mandatory on tinker.
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On September 04 2014 00:28 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 00:21 Plansix wrote:
To be honest, I don't think limiting tinker through mana cost would have done anything. He gives no fucks about 75 mana.
I don't know what to do with tinker beyond change some of his abilities so they do different damage(aka, march to magic so BKB/pipe does something) and maybe nerf laser so people can auto attack him. Rearm no longer works on Blink. There ya go.
I'm ok with this. Pretty big nerf but it doesn't make him unviable, and it might make Blink+Force more popular which is total boss mode Tinker.
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Germany5966 Posts
Setting rearm time to 3/2.25/1.5 or even 3/2.5/2 is something I'd like to see.
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EPT
