On May 13 2012 19:16 cilinder007 wrote: so you posted 5 low level games out of 100000, your point is ?
His point is?
Filter the games list by high skill, and run down the list. Almost every single game is lopsided.
Is your definition of lopsided based on the end screen? That's kind of insane, that'd be like comparing the scores at the end of a rts game. Just like in those, the game snowballs after a certain point, so in Dota, eventually one team takes their lead and extends it so that the other team can't catch up, and end up dying more and more until the ancient falls.
On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Yea, that's the thing - you've not played CM mode before, so you don't understand that your hero choice IS something you are scouting and considering (except there's perfect knowledge for this phase of the game, unlike in starcraft). And no, you can't always scout your opponent before your build order matters in sc2 - just consider zvz, where the wrong build is often autoloss. What I'm basically saying is that the first few minutes of starcraft 2, where you're doing your initial infrastructure buildup is equivalent to the picking phase in dota. You've already made choices in both cases, and you can't expect the game to be 50% for both players after that.
On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
No, you can't change your hero after they've all been chosen and the game starts.
To get back onto a decent discussion: I can't remember but, is smoke meant to work on brewmaster's spirits? Because i've just been in a game where it kept happening, one of our teammates would always have a smoke on him and whenever brewmaster ganked him and ultied he'd just smoke.
On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
No, you can't change your hero after they've all been chosen and the game starts.
You can't magically chose not to 2rax after you've built your rax.
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Yea, that's the thing - you've not played CM mode before, so you don't understand that your hero choice IS something you are scouting and considering (except there's perfect knowledge for this phase of the game, unlike in starcraft). And no, you can't always scout your opponent before your build order matters in sc2 - just consider zvz, where the wrong build is often autoloss. What I'm basically saying is that the first few minutes of starcraft 2, where you're doing your initial infrastructure buildup is equivalent to the picking phase in dota. You've already made choices in both cases, and you can't expect the game to be 50% for both players after that.
Somehow you think that CM made everything balanced, but this isn't so. Here's an earlier post:
On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote: There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
Statistics with no context or analysis behind them only demonstrate how dumb you are. And I say that as politely as I can, because it is blatantly obvious that you're trolling.
Feel free to look at my 1000 post history. I never troll. Ever. And nearly all of the topics I post in are serious and substantive.
The "out of context" comment is always made when people can't discredit statistics, talk in generalities, and have no specific counterarguement. The context that is that it's the win rate over the length of the games that include a particular hero, taken from a random sample of DotA 2 games.
1) Your statistics are for one taken from public matchmaking games, therefore invalidating the discussion already. Various heroes like Invoker are extremely difficult for low level players for play, and yet are highly banned all the time because he is a fucking team fight monster that does massive AoE and has huge amounts of disables at his disposal ranging from Cold Snap, Tornado, Deafening Blast, and Ice Wall. Heroes like Lich and Ursa are effective particularly at low levels of play because they are so braindead easy to play, and are effective because people don't know how to play against them, not because they are good at that level of play.
2) You're a fucking idiot if you think Ursa is any way shape or form overpowered. He is the ultimate pub stomp hero because public players do not buy wards, do not ever gank jungle, and always let Ursa get ahead on levels/farm by taking Roshan early. He is such an easy hero to counter even with all the farm in the world, since he is god awful easy to kite, and is smashed by superior stuns like Beastmaster Roar, Bane Elemental's Ult, and Batrider lasso.
3) You're obviously bad as fuck, or a huge fucking troll. Stop polluting this forum because it's blatantly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. We've already listed the counters and why your graphs are simply wrong. If you take a sample of competitive games, you'll find that certain heroes are picked/banned far more than Ursa for a damn reason.
I could go on and on about how you're wrong, but it's not worth my time. The only graphs in Starcraft 2 that are noteworthy in the first place are the ones that involve only professional level of play. The graph you just listed is the equivalent of attempting to utilize Battle.Net winrates to justify a balance claim, which basically means you're either a huge idiot, or a massive troll.
so you're wondering where the high level statistics are? well, obviously barely any exists because ursa is never picked. he's never picked because obviously there are more op heroes than ursa.
You realize that this supports what I say. I've never said that Ursa was overpowered in tournament level play, only that he was generally overpowered. And you've links just go to show that DotA is imbalanced at the tournament level with a large proportion of heroes rarely used, e.g. in the second last link.
So not only is the game imbalanced at the level of most players, but also imbalance in a differnt way at the top level too.
On May 13 2012 18:13 Musou wrote: [quote] Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
No, you can't change your hero after they've all been chosen and the game starts.
You can't magically chose not to 2rax after you've built your rax.
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked. Once you're picked you can't repick like in AP, and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice.
No shit that's why drafting is important and why bans are included and it's done in phases.
But you can decide to cut a few marines to make an expand, just like you can make a heaven's halberd instead of that pipe, or a ghost sceptre instead of a vanguard.
Now seriously. PU. Make another thread. I don't want to read this shit.
On May 13 2012 19:16 cilinder007 wrote: so you posted 5 low level games out of 100000, your point is ?
His point is?
Filter the games list by high skill, and run down the list. Almost every single game is lopsided.
Is your definition of lopsided based on the end screen? That's kind of insane, that'd be like comparing the scores at the end of a rts game. Just like in those, the game snowballs after a certain point, so in Dota, eventually one team takes their lead and extends it so that the other team can't catch up, and end up dying more and more until the ancient falls.
No shit.
If this is obvious to you, then why are you using score screens to make your point? How the hell can you tell if a game is lopsided just from the end game scores? Just because one team gets an advantage and wins doesn't mean it's lopsided. Further, your lack of experience makes your judgement of whether games are lopsided even worse, especially since you've said most of the front page games are lopsided. It's just the opposite in my experience, the front page games I observe and sometimes play in are the ones that have the most potential for turnarounds.
On May 13 2012 19:37 Unleashing wrote: To get back onto a decent discussion: I can't remember but, is smoke meant to work on brewmaster's spirits? Because i've just been in a game where it kept happening, one of our teammates would always have a smoke on him and whenever brewmaster ganked him and ultied he'd just smoke.
working as intended. this is actually a terrible use of smokes in most cases
On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Yea, that's the thing - you've not played CM mode before, so you don't understand that your hero choice IS something you are scouting and considering (except there's perfect knowledge for this phase of the game, unlike in starcraft). And no, you can't always scout your opponent before your build order matters in sc2 - just consider zvz, where the wrong build is often autoloss. What I'm basically saying is that the first few minutes of starcraft 2, where you're doing your initial infrastructure buildup is equivalent to the picking phase in dota. You've already made choices in both cases, and you can't expect the game to be 50% for both players after that.
Somehow you think that CM made everything balanced, but this isn't so. Here's an earlier post:
On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote: There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
Statistics with no context or analysis behind them only demonstrate how dumb you are. And I say that as politely as I can, because it is blatantly obvious that you're trolling.
Feel free to look at my 1000 post history. I never troll. Ever. And nearly all of the topics I post in are serious and substantive.
The "out of context" comment is always made when people can't discredit statistics, talk in generalities, and have no specific counterarguement. The context that is that it's the win rate over the length of the games that include a particular hero, taken from a random sample of DotA 2 games.
1) Your statistics are for one taken from public matchmaking games, therefore invalidating the discussion already. Various heroes like Invoker are extremely difficult for low level players for play, and yet are highly banned all the time because he is a fucking team fight monster that does massive AoE and has huge amounts of disables at his disposal ranging from Cold Snap, Tornado, Deafening Blast, and Ice Wall. Heroes like Lich and Ursa are effective particularly at low levels of play because they are so braindead easy to play, and are effective because people don't know how to play against them, not because they are good at that level of play.
2) You're a fucking idiot if you think Ursa is any way shape or form overpowered. He is the ultimate pub stomp hero because public players do not buy wards, do not ever gank jungle, and always let Ursa get ahead on levels/farm by taking Roshan early. He is such an easy hero to counter even with all the farm in the world, since he is god awful easy to kite, and is smashed by superior stuns like Beastmaster Roar, Bane Elemental's Ult, and Batrider lasso.
3) You're obviously bad as fuck, or a huge fucking troll. Stop polluting this forum because it's blatantly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. We've already listed the counters and why your graphs are simply wrong. If you take a sample of competitive games, you'll find that certain heroes are picked/banned far more than Ursa for a damn reason.
I could go on and on about how you're wrong, but it's not worth my time. The only graphs in Starcraft 2 that are noteworthy in the first place are the ones that involve only professional level of play. The graph you just listed is the equivalent of attempting to utilize Battle.Net winrates to justify a balance claim, which basically means you're either a huge idiot, or a massive troll.
so you're wondering where the high level statistics are? well, obviously barely any exists because ursa is never picked. he's never picked because obviously there are more op heroes than ursa.
You realize that this supports what I say. I've never said that Ursa was overpowered in tournament level play, only that he was generally overpowered. And you've links just go to show that DotA is imbalanced at the tournament level with a large proportion of heroes rarely used, e.g. in the second last link.
So not only is the game imbalanced at the level of most players, but also imbalance in a differnt way at the top level too.
Except, as I've said, hero picks are better compared to build order choices in starcraft. (AKA the stuff that happens before you have information on your opponent, or during the early phases before you have much scouting options). You don't expect every build to be used equally at all levels. You also expect some builds to almost never show up in starcraft. That's not imbalance, that's part of strategy.
On May 13 2012 19:16 cilinder007 wrote: so you posted 5 low level games out of 100000, your point is ?
His point is?
Filter the games list by high skill, and run down the list. Almost every single game is lopsided.
Is your definition of lopsided based on the end screen? That's kind of insane, that'd be like comparing the scores at the end of a rts game. Just like in those, the game snowballs after a certain point, so in Dota, eventually one team takes their lead and extends it so that the other team can't catch up, and end up dying more and more until the ancient falls.
No shit.
If this is obvious to you, then why are you using score screens to make your point? How the hell can you tell if a game is lopsided just from the end game scores? Just because one team gets an advantage and wins doesn't mean it's lopsided. Further, your lack of experience makes your judgement of whether games are lopsided even worse, especially since you've said most of the front page games are lopsided. It's just the opposite in my experience, the front page games I observe and sometimes play in are the ones that have the most potential for turnarounds.
Yes, it does. As I said in my first post: games are often won or lost by about 20 minutes, yet the game must drag on for about 25 minutes because there is no gg. This creates heavily lopsided games.
On May 13 2012 18:56 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
No, you can't change your hero after they've all been chosen and the game starts.
You can't magically chose not to 2rax after you've built your rax.
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked. Once you're picked you can't repick like in AP, and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice.
No shit that's why drafting is important and why bans are included and it's done in phases.
On May 13 2012 18:56 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
No, you can't change your hero after they've all been chosen and the game starts.
You can't magically chose not to 2rax after you've built your rax.
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked. Once you're picked you can't repick like in AP, and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice.
Yeah, thats the point. Heroes are the equivalent to your opening, the laning is the follow up, you item choices is your tech path.
That's why a MM game is the equivalent to bronze league in sc2, nothing makes sense which is why you shouldn't take statistics taken from them seriously.
On May 13 2012 18:56 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
What we're trying to get through to you is that in high level games, hero picks are in game strategy, not pre-game race selections. In starcraft 2, you select your race before the game starts, there's no reaction, no strategy in that. In dota 2, you see what your opponents pick, and you react. It's completely different. It'd be more like choosing what units you could use in game in starcraft 2, at the start of the game, and seeing what your opponent picks. If you choose stupidly, of course you'll lose very often, and some units will have lower winrates than others.
Then the outcome is somewhat predetermined by what hero you picked, before the game starts or by your definition, before the action starts.
Exactly, just like in broodwar and starcraft, some of the outcome is determined before you even see your opponent. Your build order matters. Your draft matters.
Your build can be adapted to what you scout. Your hero choice can't. As such, SC2 is balanced in the sense that every race before the game starts has an almost 50% chance of winning, the same is not true of DotA.
Uh, yes it can WTF? ROFL
You've never played in a CM game in your life. Why is anyone still talking to you?
No, you can't change your hero after they've all been chosen and the game starts.
You can't magically chose not to 2rax after you've built your rax.
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked. Once you're picked you can't repick like in AP, and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice.
No shit that's why drafting is important and why bans are included and it's done in phases.
I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
EPT
