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On May 13 2012 18:37 BurningSera wrote:
you know what is easy? just go play that hero and stomp everyone if you think he is so fcking imba. there, at least you should feel good of taking advantage of that. and please, come back here to tell us when you get owned by X hero next time.
of course he won't, because his teammates will be shit and it will be all their fault, not his. ursa will still be op.
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On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sTScZ.png) imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation
Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 41:14.
User was warned for this post
This is not a joke.
It's very serious, and one of my main points, which first appeared in my original post and is discussed thoroughly in this thread. And the edit relates to the length of the game, as what is shown on the score screen is wrong.
Original Message From TL.net Bot:
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Don't quote a huge post to make a tasteless joke, especially one that you have to edit 3 times. You were better off just making a legit comment instead of trying to be funny here.
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On May 13 2012 18:37 BurningSera wrote:
dude, wtf, still doing your balance whine here?? fyi, we have seen enough people like you from all these years - people whine about some hero imba after they get owned. i dare to say that we will find that you get owned by riki/ursa in your recent game history.
dota is by all means not a perfectly balanced game, not even close, but most of us would agree that it is balanced enough to allow us to have (massive) fun. there is no perfectly balance game in this world (ok ill give that to chess....).
you know what is easy? just go play that hero and stomp everyone if you think he is so fcking imba. there, at least you should feel good of taking advantage of that. and please, come back here to tell us when you get owned by X hero next time.
and atm dota2 doesnt even have the full hero pool yet. wait till you see PA, rubbick, nerub, lanaya oh and many more.....i cannot wait to see your reaction to those heroes lol
There are stats in this thread. Also, adding more overpowered heroes doesn't make the game more balanced. It just makes the shit heroes even shitter.
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On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes.
with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that?
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On May 13 2012 18:41 zeehar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes. with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that?
Ursa has a 58% win rate, not 100%.
That's how I explain it. Also, it turns out that it's 41 minutes, not 37.
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On May 13 2012 18:35 Firebolt145 wrote:
5-s is one of the first beta testers of DotA, before it was even announced to the public at all. And you accuse him of not understanding the game or its balance?
You seem so fixated on your arguments that you seem blind to the fact that not ONE person in this entire forum has agreed with you. What does this tell you?
He doesn't understand the difference between balance between races and balance within races in SC2, and to what extend both are important, or how this analogy applies to DotA 2.
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Honestly have no clue how PU can keep arguing about balance when competitively ursa isn't viable at all right now. According to "statistics" across competitive play it should be buffed.
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On May 13 2012 18:46 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:41 zeehar wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes. with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that? Ursa has a 58% win rate, not 100%. That's how I explain it. Also, it turns out that it's 41 minutes, not 37.
Basically, you've made one fatal mistake in all your assumptions. You assume hero picks are something that happens BEFORE a game, but in Dota, unlike sc2 races, the hero picks are part of the game. That's why you don't have blind drafting, and you have things like captains mode, where you react to your opponent's picks. That's why I was making the comparison to dark templars: hero drafts are reasonably compared to build orders, and what you're arguing for is 50% winrate with every build order, and that's simply unfeasible / undesirable.
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Stop it, guys.
Paralleluniverse is a butthurt guy who got stomped in pubs and now he's determined to prove how unbalanced DotA is because he's bad at it. That's all there is to it.
He thinks that after 60 games he knows what it means to have balance in DotA.
I mean it's not like some of us have been following the scene for years and have thousands of games and countless hours dropped into it, right?
DotA is balanced around Captain's mode and 2 teams that know how to pick accordingly to the situation.
It is not balanced around 10 (often)random people picking what they feel like playing and playing without coordination and then often losing to a hero that can easily abuse people that can't position themselves.
It's like going into SC2 and making whatever build you feel like making without scouting your enemy and then complain that X Y and Z is OP because you can't just build what you want without it wrecking you, and then you look up online and you see that the build you like to you has a really low win-rate against X Y and Z, and then start whining about imbalance.
That is how we see you, Paralleluniverse.
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On May 13 2012 18:50 5-s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:46 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:41 zeehar wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes. with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that? Ursa has a 58% win rate, not 100%. That's how I explain it. Also, it turns out that it's 41 minutes, not 37. Basically, you've made one fatal mistake in all your assumptions. You assume hero picks are something that happens BEFORE a game, but in Dota, unlike sc2 races, the hero picks are part of the game. That's why you don't have blind drafting, and you have things like captains mode, where you react to your opponent's picks. That's why I was making the comparison to dark templars: hero drafts are reasonably compared to build orders, and what you're arguing for is 50% winrate with every build order, and that's simply unfeasible / undesirable.
He plays mid (or low level) all pick only.
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This is getting hard to read, and this thread has stopped being "general".
PU, can you make a new thread to stop flooding this one? Or even better, KEEP THE BALANCE DISCUSSIONS OUT OF TL!
On May 13 2012 18:37 BurningSera wrote:There is no perfectly balance game in this world (ok ill give that to chess....).
Chess isn't balanced! White OP! Nerf KKK.
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What are you talking about guys, paralleluniverse is a dota genius. In fact his knowledge of the game is rivaled only by Font himself.
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On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 41:14.
And you know it was 1-sided and dragged on, how?
What if the radiant team got wrecked for the first 15 minutes and then started warding and playing as a team and turned it around and won all teamfights from then on?
Oh, right, you don't.
Winning teams will often end up with a ton more kills due to often winning 2-3 teamfights before the game is completely over. Not to talk about fountain farming.
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ugh, i just played a game with Riki.
i dont like the new silence effect after he blinks.
but i suppose its needed for balance since hes so strong. T_T
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On May 13 2012 18:13 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:00 paralleluniverse wrote:
Suppose that hero X has a 80% win rate. Is he overpowered? I would say yes. But what if it actually turned out that the reason why X has an 80% win rate is because he is usually paired with another hero Y which supports X very well. It was then found that if X is not paired with Y, then X has a 30% win rate. Now given that X has an 80% win rate overall, but a 30% win rate when not with Y, is X sill overpowered?
The answer is again, yes. Being paired with Y is how X is almost always played and this is overpowered. Given this fact, X is imbalanced as the game is mostly determined before it even starts. But finding the cause of the imbalance and determining how to nerf X if at all, we would need to see that the cause is actually Y, and nerfs should mostly focus on how well Y supports X, rather than a direct nerf to X.
This example illustrates the difference between showing that there is an imbalanced hero, and what the cause or recommended fix to an imbalance is. A distinction you do not understand.
Except, no, that's not overpowered. If a hero X has an 80% win rate with hero Y and a 30% win rate without, either he gets banned, or his buddy gets banned. They don't both get picked. If you're talking about non-CM modes like AP, these mythical 80% win rates don't exist. And again, you can't balance based on heroes if there are valid strategies to counter it. You don't just look at the win rate of a specific hero and say "that's not balanced" if there are methods to counter it. Remember 1-1-1 being "impossible" to beat for protoss? They didn't change anything about the match-up because it was actually possible to win against 1-1-1. Players just hadn't figured out how to do it yet. Once players figured out counters, it was all about the execution. Whichever side makes a mistake first, loses. It's the same with these so-called "overpowered" heroes. Make a mistake, and you lose. Of course, if you choose the wrong build order (wrong hero drafting), you also lose. It's the nature of the game. Make bad decisions and you're going to lose.
You also don't understand the difference between balance within races and balance between races with your analogy about 1-1-1 in SC2. What matters more wasn't the strategy, but Protoss' win rate against Terran overall.
That was also an example of showing the difference between determining whether there is an imbalance and finding the cause of the imbalance. I never said that any hero has an 80% win rate, or that it applies only to CM. What if the same thing happened in CM but the cause was different. It was an item rather than a support hero. Would you then continue the argument by twisting my analogy about one thing and changing the subject to something else?
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On May 13 2012 18:54 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 41:14. And you know it was 1-sided and dragged on, how? What if the radiant team got wrecked for the first 15 minutes and then started warding and playing as a team and turned it around and won all teamfights from then on? Oh, right, you don't. Winning teams will often end up with a ton more kills due to often winning 2-3 teamfights before the game is completely over. Not to talk about fountain farming.
I do.
I watched the replay. The game was over at about 25-30 minutes. It was utterly unwinnable by 35 minutes.
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On May 13 2012 18:58 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 41:14. And you know it was 1-sided and dragged on, how? What if the radiant team got wrecked for the first 15 minutes and then started warding and playing as a team and turned it around and won all teamfights from then on? Oh, right, you don't. Winning teams will often end up with a ton more kills due to often winning 2-3 teamfights before the game is completely over. Not to talk about fountain farming. I do. I watched the replay. The game was over at about 25-30 minutes.
You missed the point of why i said it. Jesus christ you're dense.
You talk like 90% of the games in DotA are lopsided, THEY ARE NOT.
But low skilled player don't know how to use wards, smoke and so on to get back into a game.
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On May 13 2012 18:54 writer22816 wrote:
What are you talking about guys, paralleluniverse is a dota genius. In fact his knowledge of the game is rivaled only by Font himself.
this made me lol :D
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On May 13 2012 18:59 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:58 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 41:14. And you know it was 1-sided and dragged on, how? What if the radiant team got wrecked for the first 15 minutes and then started warding and playing as a team and turned it around and won all teamfights from then on? Oh, right, you don't. Winning teams will often end up with a ton more kills due to often winning 2-3 teamfights before the game is completely over. Not to talk about fountain farming. I do. I watched the replay. The game was over at about 25-30 minutes. You missed the point of why i said it. Jesus christ you're dense. You talk like 90% of the games in DotA are lopsided, THEY ARE NOT. But low skilled player don't know how to use wards, smoke and so on to get back into a game.
They are. Just spectate any front page match.
I'm watching a 21-5 game in progress right now.
The game just ended now. In case you're interested, it's 15894508.
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On May 13 2012 19:02 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:59 Unleashing wrote:On May 13 2012 18:58 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 41:14. And you know it was 1-sided and dragged on, how? What if the radiant team got wrecked for the first 15 minutes and then started warding and playing as a team and turned it around and won all teamfights from then on? Oh, right, you don't. Winning teams will often end up with a ton more kills due to often winning 2-3 teamfights before the game is completely over. Not to talk about fountain farming. I do. I watched the replay. The game was over at about 25-30 minutes. You missed the point of why i said it. Jesus christ you're dense. You talk like 90% of the games in DotA are lopsided, THEY ARE NOT. But low skilled player don't know how to use wards, smoke and so on to get back into a game. They are. Just spectate any front page match.
are the matches on the front page the definition of balance in dota ?
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EPT
