On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
Paralleluniverse, I'm going to ask you a question.
Suppose we take your claim, that the game is not balanced from hero to hero, and that there is some portion of the hero pool that is better or picked more often than the rest of the pool (I'm sure at this level of generality, many people will agree).
Why, as a design goal, is it desirable for Icefrog and Valve to go through the effort of ensuring that EVERY hero is equally good? In the context of Starcraft, race balance is desirable because you only have 3 races. Having only 2 or 1 of them be viable limits diversity of gameplay. But the thing is, DotA already has 100+ heroes. Coupled with how bans work in -CM which already create diversity in terms of what people feel they don't want to play against, we already have a surplus of diversity in terms of lineup selection. Even if you accept that some 20-30 heroes get picked significantly more often than the rest, I believe most of the community would agree that amount of diversity is acceptable. The amount of effort required to make the other 2/3 of the pool equally ban/pick-worthy just takes more man-hours of testing and development time than the gain is really worth.
In a game with 3 races, having only 1 of them being significantly better than the other two can be problematic for diversity. In a game with 100 heroes, I don't think anyone is losing sleep over the fact that 20-30 of them get picked more often than the rest.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while they matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
The buildings you make at the start of the game of sc2 certainly does matter. If you build 3 spawning pools, you're gonna lose. That's essentially what most people are doing in AP games, picking ridiculous lineups that make no sense. And it definitely does matter whether you get gas or not, etc. It limits your options.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
15 minutes into the game you can farm a ghost sceptor to counter Ursa. He is now irrelevant.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
15 minutes into the game you can farm a ghost sceptor to counter Ursa. He is now irrelevant.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
15 minutes into the game you can farm a ghost sceptor to counter Ursa. He is now irrelevant.
midas is more expensive than a ghost scepter.
Farming sceptor so early in the game is pretty silly imo, you'll end up killing yourself with all the magic nukes flying about
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
The buildings you make at the start of the game of sc2 certainly does matter. If you build 3 spawning pools, you're gonna lose. That's essentially what most people are doing in AP games, picking ridiculous lineups that make no sense. And it definitely does matter whether you get gas or not, etc. It limits your options.
Nobody builds 3 spawning pools, so the buildings that are made do not matter beyond the first few minutes. In DotA 2, heroes always matter. The outcome of the game is mostly predetermined by hero choice, the same is not true in SC2.
Under this argument, it's OK if DotA can have heroes that are insanely overpowered, such as a 10000 DPS hero, because it's possible to veto that hero. Even though it will never be used in CM, because it's always vetoed, it's still overpowered.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while they matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
Of course it does. If you make 7 racks pumping pure marines straight and you don't finish off your opponent while he gets an expansion up, you're obviously fucked too. No shit your build order or your hero selection has a lot to do with the outcome of the game.
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
15 minutes into the game you can farm a ghost sceptor to counter Ursa. He is now irrelevant.
midas is more expensive than a ghost scepter.
Farming sceptor so early in the game is pretty silly imo, you'll end up killing yourself with all the magic nukes flying about
oh so that is why you can't beat these overpowered heroes. because once you get those items it'll turn into a lopsided game!
On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote: I added more to that post: You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance.
You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game.
You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs.
The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent.
15 minutes into the game you can farm a ghost sceptor to counter Ursa. He is now irrelevant.
midas is more expensive than a ghost scepter.
Farming sceptor so early in the game is pretty silly imo, you'll end up killing yourself with all the magic nukes flying about
You can just keep it without using the active in most fights. +7 to all stats is pretty good. A poor man's Janggo Drum or Ulti Orb for those times when neither will save you from Ursa, but Ghost Scepter will.
Can we just ignore him already? We've spent like 10 pages shitting on him and he won't take a hint. Let him be a stubborn bastard if he wants, he won't change his mind about this and it's a waste of bandwidth trying to convince him otherwise.
EPT
