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On May 13 2012 20:15 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 20:11 5-s wrote:On May 13 2012 20:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 19:52 TheYango wrote:On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote:
I added more to that post:
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance. You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game. You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs. The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent. The buildings you make at the start of the game of sc2 certainly does matter. If you build 3 spawning pools, you're gonna lose. That's essentially what most people are doing in AP games, picking ridiculous lineups that make no sense. And it definitely does matter whether you get gas or not, etc. It limits your options. Nobody builds 3 spawning pools, so the buildings that are made do not matter beyond the first few minutes. In DotA 2, heroes always matter. The outcome of the game is mostly predetermined by hero choice, the same is not true in SC2. Under this argument, it's OK if DotA can have heroes that are insanely overpowered, such as a 10000 DPS hero, because it's possible to veto that hero. Even though it will never be used in CM, because it's always vetoed, it's still overpowered.
But that isn't the case with Ursa. He isn't even banned because he is so easily countered. I don't even get how you are still arguing. From what I gather, you are saying that some heroes seem OP at some skill levels in AP games or games where you can't ban. Cool I get that. But to try and say that because at some skill level this hero seems OP, it automatically needs to be removed from the game or nerfed, that is ridiculous. It is the same as saying "welp cheesing wins 80% of games in bonze, it must be OP and we should nerf it into the ground"
The fact is, things seem overpowered until you counter them, and then those counters seem overpowered until they get countered. This continues on and on and it is called an evolving metagame. This is the reason why the game evolves and is enjoyable to watch. You don't just see the same perfectly-balanced lineup against an identical lineup. You see crazy strategies designed with the sole purpose of countering other strategies. If you really have a problem with an "OP" hero, learn the metagame. See what it takes to counter it and then do it. Hell, even if the counter is to have 4 other coordinated people, then there you go. And don't try to give me any of this "but it should be balanced for the individual player" shit, Dota is a team game and it better require teamwork to pull off.
So the morale is, there is OP shit in every game, as many posters before me have stated. There is also an evolving metagame where the things that were OP today are not OP tomorrow, even though nothing numerical has changed, just a change in how people play the game. Learn to live with it or stop playing competitive games and go play something like Skyrim. Or figure out what is beating you and then learn to beat that. Your call.
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@CC: Ghost scepter is 1600 and gives 7 to all, Janggo is 1725 and gives 9 to all - getting GS for the stats alone is silly.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
There was a picture a while back which described balance in several games. SCBW was perfectly balanced with years in between patches, WoW was constantly balanced by making one class OP at a time and cycling between the classes, and DotA was balanced by just having every hero be OP and cancel each other out. :D
Ghost Sceptor is 1600, for 600 more you could also get a blink/force staff. Both also great items for countering Ursa
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On May 13 2012 18:46 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:41 zeehar wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sTScZ.png) imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes. with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that? Ursa has a 58% win rate, not 100%. That's how I explain it. Also, it turns out that it's 41 minutes, not 37.
36:36 actually. But we took rax around 28. Simply they weren't like you and didnt decide to stop because 'game was over once you took fb'
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Haha its so true. Had so many of those moments in dota where its like "FUCK THIS HERO OH MY GOD!!!" and then like 5 games later its like "oh man that dude is so easy to play again lol!" I think the biggest one for me was Antimage. When I was noob, I would always lose to antimages. I think one day I just stopped. (I played with a bunch of friends at the time so it was more of a coolective thing). But anyway, we were like "Shit....did antimage get nerfed? Cause he is really easy to beat now." and then we found out he was actually buffed. And then we laughed. I'm pretty sure a few games later we got stomped by an AM but that hero has never really given me a problem after I just learned how to play with an AM in the game.
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My personal favourite item up against ursa is heaven's halberd. Its the ghost sceptre that also works for the rest of your retarded team.
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On May 13 2012 20:46 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 18:46 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:41 zeehar wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes. with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that? Ursa has a 58% win rate, not 100%. That's how I explain it. Also, it turns out that it's 41 minutes, not 37. 36:36 actually. But we took rax around 28. Simply they weren't like you and didnt decide to stop because 'game was over once you took fb'
36:36 on the score screen but if you actually watch the replay it's 41:14.
Anyway, I'm done. There's a summary above on the fail in this thread.
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Oh hai, this thing still going xD
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
Oh wow you are incredible ~
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I think this guy is finally done trolling the Dota 2 board. I swear it is like explaining evolution to a fundamental christian. Some people just do not want to listen or learn.
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I think the mantle of king of this thread passes from Font to PU. Congratz Font.
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On May 13 2012 20:51 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 20:46 Erasme wrote:On May 13 2012 18:46 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:41 zeehar wrote:On May 13 2012 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 18:09 Erasme wrote:Ursa is the easiest hero to counter, he can't get a kill by himself. And ofc carries are better late game, that's why they carry the game. Btw, saying that something is imbalanced will just stop you from having fun and getting better, because you'll blame the game instead of your own mistakes. On topic imbalanced ursa cant kill razor cuz he has no damage *evil laugh* And it's fucking hard to lasthit as Razor lol, deceptive attack animation Oh look, it's an utterly and completely 1-sided game that dragged on for 37 minutes. with your OP hero on the losing team. how do you explain that? Ursa has a 58% win rate, not 100%. That's how I explain it. Also, it turns out that it's 41 minutes, not 37. 36:36 actually. But we took rax around 28. Simply they weren't like you and didnt decide to stop because 'game was over once you took fb' 36:36 on the score screen but if you actually watch the replay it's 41:14. Anyway, I'm done. There's a summary above on the fail in this thread.
i thot this was the summary on the fail in this thread
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lol
last 10 page is pure fun.
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On May 13 2012 20:58 LAN-f34r wrote:
I think the mantle of king of this thread passes from Font to PU. Congratz Font.
Now we just need a picture of Ursa holding a jar of PU's tears.
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On May 13 2012 20:20 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 20:15 Firebolt145 wrote:On May 13 2012 20:14 rabidch wrote:On May 13 2012 20:11 Firebolt145 wrote:On May 13 2012 20:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 13 2012 19:52 TheYango wrote:On May 13 2012 19:49 paralleluniverse wrote:
I added more to that post:
You also can't repick based on what the opponent has picked, like in AP. and this means that the game is somewhat determined by hero choice, before the game has started. Build orders happen after the game has started, and you can react to your opponents build order by changing yours. You cannot react to your opponents hero choice by changing your hero.
The fact that CM is even needed shows how imbalanced some of the heroes intrinsically are, it's not an argument for DotA being a paragon of perfect balance. You can't repick your heroes, just like you can't unmake buildings and units that you've already made. But you CAN alter how you ban/pick the remaining heroes in the draft, and you can alter your item choices once you're in the game. You can't entirely change your build order after you scout something. You can only alter the portions that you have not yet completed. Likewise you can alter your draft based on what your opponent picks, but only the picks that occur after theirs. The analogy is ridiculous. Build orders generally do not matter beyond the first several minutes unless you're planning to 6 pool or something like that, because it's possible to change build orders. 15 minutes into the game, the buildings you've built but cannot unbuild are essentially irrelevant. The same is not true in DotA, what you can do depends on what heroes you've picked, and what heroes your opponents have picked. This is unchangeable. In SC2, you can go siege tanks with whatever build order you choose, in DotA, the same doesn't apply. If heroes are build orders, then build orders don't matter that much in a mid-game and beyond of SC2, while the matter a lot in DotA 2 from beginning to end. As a result the choices you made at the start about heroes, which isn't really part of the game is a much larger determining factor to the outcome of the game, than the buildings you've made in SC2 before you've scouted the opponent. 15 minutes into the game you can farm a ghost sceptor to counter Ursa. He is now irrelevant. midas is more expensive than a ghost scepter. Farming sceptor so early in the game is pretty silly imo, you'll end up killing yourself with all the magic nukes flying about  You can just keep it without using the active in most fights. +7 to all stats is pretty good. A poor man's Janggo Drum or Ulti Orb for those times when neither will save you from Ursa, but Ghost Scepter will.
Or just a forcestaff, which can also be used to steal the aegis from your carry!
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I must say the last few pages have been the biggest abuse of statistics I've seen in awhile. I guess this is why my lecturers always demand solid analysis of results before conclusions. Looking at only one variable in such a complex system is ludicrous.
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EPT
