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On March 01 2012 09:50 esotericc wrote:
Couple general questions
1) What's an average record for someone who randoms every game, I am 111-119, I feeel like this is shitty although I didn't really play dota until i got dota 2 beta
2) Is it normal that your success in solo queue is almost entirely based on whether you get the better team in the game? I mean this sounds obvious at its surface but I feel so many games are decided before we even pick heroes, I have had maybe 20 close games the rest were complete stomps one way or the other. I mean obviously I could play better but I never do THAT bad, sure I've fed my share of games when Im having a bad day or whatever but it shouldn't be one person constantly being the downfall of the team (assuming I was always the worst) right? Not saying I am always the worst but I find it pointless to blame my team every time.
So is solo queue MM basically a lottery to get the better team or can my personal play almost always be the deciding factor?
1/ its not about what you pick, its about what your team pick in combination with your random hero... most of the time those 2 are independent variables therefore wont affect each other in w/l statistic.
2/ Yes, you need to get better to be success in solo queue. You getting better means that your team will win 1 out of 3 lanes from very early on therefore overall increase the advantage you have stepping on to mid game. Since its only 1/3, ofc the other 2/3 matter more but even 1% still count.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 01 2012 09:50 esotericc wrote:
Couple general questions
1) What's an average record for someone who randoms every game, I am 111-119, I feeel like this is shitty although I didn't really play dota until i got dota 2 beta
2) Is it normal that your success in solo queue is almost entirely based on whether you get the better team in the game? I mean this sounds obvious at its surface but I feel so many games are decided before we even pick heroes, I have had maybe 20 close games the rest were complete stomps one way or the other. I mean obviously I could play better but I never do THAT bad, sure I've fed my share of games when Im having a bad day or whatever but it shouldn't be one person constantly being the downfall of the team (assuming I was always the worst) right? Not saying I am always the worst but I find it pointless to blame my team every time.
So is solo queue MM basically a lottery to get the better team or can my personal play almost always be the deciding factor?
Solo MM and MM in general is not really good(provided you mean AP or SD), CM mode is where you will learn the ''real'' game.
Random is just that, random, you can basically lose the game outfront from just picks alone, if you random and the opponent team picks AM/Invoker/Furion (which is possible in AP) and you random the wrong heroes(or your team does/pick) then you have basically lost the game already if your opponents are even half competent.
The way to influence your solo MM if you want to is to pick heroes which control the flow of the game(if you check earlier in this thread there were some posts about it), these are heroes such as Night Stalker, Storm Spirit, Furion, strong ganking heroes who can not only control their own lane but also the other lanes, alternativaly the pubstomper champions such as huskarr could do.
Either way, solo MM(AP/SD) is not a good way to improve if you are past the basics of Dota.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 01 2012 09:46 NB wrote:
edit: clearly drum add a ton of survival skill into BH: the only way to kill him is using dust and u cant out run dust duration with phase drum quite easily. Drum also give you bonus HP and phase dmg will add in bonus of W later on. The AS on tread is kinda a waste bc BH is all about 1 hit combo quick dmg dealer, not to stand and 1v1 solo ursa... The robe of magi early on before bracer could also add in mana regen to roam and spam Q around level 6.
You'd be surprised at how good BH is at providing sustained fighting power. Don't forget that Jinada is also an attack speed slow, which allows you to fight autoattack carries head on quite well midgame. Not to mention, you're going to have 10 seconds of BKB on first activation--why the hell would you waste that backing off and waiting for cooldowns? You're still an agility hero with a big chunk of itemized autoattack damage.
For midgame stand-and-fight engagements, Treads+Janggo beats almost all other reasonable combinations of similarly priced items.
On March 01 2012 10:01 Kipsate wrote:
Either way, solo MM(AP/SD) is not a good way to improve if you are past the basics of Dota.
Disagree.
There are way too many fundamentals that can be well practiced in the environment of an AP/SD game. You're undervaluing how much of a difference those fundamentals make (and how much time and effort it takes to master them) if you think AP/SD aren't useful practice.
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United States47024 Posts
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On March 01 2012 10:04 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 10:01 Kipsate wrote:
Either way, solo MM(AP/SD) is not a good way to improve if you are past the basics of Dota. Disagree. There are way too many fundamentals that can be well practiced in the environment of an AP/SD game. You're undervaluing how much of a difference those fundamentals make (and how much time and effort it takes to master them) if you think AP/SD aren't useful practice.
Solo MM Mid is probably the most efficient way to improve your gameplay other than scrimming with high level teams.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 01 2012 10:04 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:46 NB wrote:
edit: clearly drum add a ton of survival skill into BH: the only way to kill him is using dust and u cant out run dust duration with phase drum quite easily. Drum also give you bonus HP and phase dmg will add in bonus of W later on. The AS on tread is kinda a waste bc BH is all about 1 hit combo quick dmg dealer, not to stand and 1v1 solo ursa... The robe of magi early on before bracer could also add in mana regen to roam and spam Q around level 6. You'd be surprised at how good BH is at providing sustained fighting power. Don't forget that Jinada is also an attack speed slow. Not to mention, you're going to have 10 seconds of BKB on first activation--why the hell would you waste that backing off and waiting for cooldowns? You're still an agility hero with a big chunk of itemized damage. For midgame stand-and-fight engagements, Treads+Janggo beats almost all other reasonable combinations of similarly priced items. Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 10:01 Kipsate wrote:
Either way, solo MM(AP/SD) is not a good way to improve if you are past the basics of Dota. Disagree. There are way too many fundamentals that can be well practiced in the environment of an AP/SD game. You're undervaluing how much of a difference those fundamentals make (and how much time and effort it takes to master them) if you think AP/SD aren't useful practice.
Individual skill I suppose is important in solo MM but I really dislike randoming(SD sometimes too) and playing with ''bad'' lanes where you basically lose from the picking stage outright.
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medallion is kinda awkward as an early item on gondar
you'd be better off just buying an urn, bottle, or soul ring
also in any kind of pub or otherwise unorganized game you're better off buying bfury over jango most of the time
you can always improve in solo mm; it builds basic mechanics like lasthitting, better positioning, map awareness, etc
it's not quite the same as scrimming, but the transition isn't particularly rough
i mean the vast majority of pros began their careers as pubstars
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Netherlands45349 Posts
and on BH, Bfury makes him meant to go for a hardcarry, which is not something I like to do on BH because I feel that his midgame ganking is where he shines.
And Treads are the way to go on BH imo, the extra hp is also not to be forgotten.
Also, does anyone feel that Mirana feels a bit, lackluster?I feel that if she doesnt get decent farm(manta at 20) then she just does not do enough.
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drum or fast bkb is only good on BH if you are lacking gold/getting killed a lot. if you hit faster gold timings you can easily go for bfury or deso and immediately start chopping up supports and other squishies and instead invest in bkb/manta or heart.
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On March 01 2012 10:10 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 10:04 TheYango wrote:On March 01 2012 09:46 NB wrote:
edit: clearly drum add a ton of survival skill into BH: the only way to kill him is using dust and u cant out run dust duration with phase drum quite easily. Drum also give you bonus HP and phase dmg will add in bonus of W later on. The AS on tread is kinda a waste bc BH is all about 1 hit combo quick dmg dealer, not to stand and 1v1 solo ursa... The robe of magi early on before bracer could also add in mana regen to roam and spam Q around level 6. You'd be surprised at how good BH is at providing sustained fighting power. Don't forget that Jinada is also an attack speed slow. Not to mention, you're going to have 10 seconds of BKB on first activation--why the hell would you waste that backing off and waiting for cooldowns? You're still an agility hero with a big chunk of itemized damage. For midgame stand-and-fight engagements, Treads+Janggo beats almost all other reasonable combinations of similarly priced items. On March 01 2012 10:01 Kipsate wrote:
Either way, solo MM(AP/SD) is not a good way to improve if you are past the basics of Dota. Disagree. There are way too many fundamentals that can be well practiced in the environment of an AP/SD game. You're undervaluing how much of a difference those fundamentals make (and how much time and effort it takes to master them) if you think AP/SD aren't useful practice. Individual skill I suppose is important in solo MM but I really dislike randoming(SD sometimes too) and playing with ''bad'' lanes where you basically lose from the picking stage outright.
I started to random to learn every hero to improve my skill but now that I have played every single one save a couple I am thinking it might be time to start focusing on a few that I enjoy for each type of laning situation that arises.
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I feel I am at the point where I understand the basics of Dota and now whenever I play pubs, it isn't about winning or losing, it is more about discovering the intricacies of my favorite heroes. Generally this means always going for the biggest plays possible and seeing exactly how far you can stretch a situation before it becomes detrimental. I have heard of different Dota leagues with high level CM games and I am interested how to approach those leagues and get involved.
@Kipsate: I can definitely see what you are saying with Mirana. imo she is one of the absolute toughest heroes to play. She is really good at sitting on the outskirts of a fight for an obscenely long time always doing damage but being nearly untouchable. The toughest thing for me when playing her is managing my CD's and adjusting to the temp of the fight. Starfall does shitloads of AoE damage. It is pretty awesome midgame when you land a big one. The problem is that you have to be right next to their entire team to land a big one. Getting a feel for the fight and being able to go in and out to starfall while never getting caught is really tough. I think she is really strong, it is just the level of finesse required to play her is really high. She is my most practiced hero and I am still terrible with her but then I watch someone like Sexy Bamboe play her and it is ridiculous how much damage she can put out mid game.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2012 07:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 07:15 Slardar wrote:
TheYango gave out the pro list here, this is the definitive perfect advice. Boots are generally treads** on the edit. Also you can throw a wand in the build of course, mandatory imo, and PMS is not a terrible choice. I usually go with the Jango-->BKB-->Yasha/Bfly route, personally. Wand is indeed pretty much mandatory. It's a quick and dirty fix to your short-term mana usage, since you don't have the luxury of Void Stone mana regen. I actually don't really like PMS that much on BH. The upgrade from Stout is REALLY minimal. I like it on heroes that want that little extra kick during laning, and would otherwise be building stuff that's harder to save for without committing item slots to stuff like Wraith Bands, but BH is going to be buying Janggo components--which are just as cheap as the 2xSlippers anyway. Sometimes there are situations where I might really feel like I want to slot in the +6 Agi or the extra damage block (especially in games that necessitate BFury and not Janggo), but usually, staying on Stout and getting Janggo 300 gold earlier is better. Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 07:35 NB wrote:
Once you pick a hero, you have to choose it according to the role you will play on a team and i believe BH is a ganker into carry, not carry into ganker. Therefore build such as BF which tend to lead a very passive play style on your team is not the way to play BH. If you want such style, why dont you pick different heroes? Because you're playing a pub and decided to random? Obviously if you're trying to make reasonable picks you probably won't play BH as a 1st position carry, but sometimes, the game just ends up that way.
Yeah I know it's mandatory, just spelling it out in laymen terms for everyone in-case people aren't sure. PMS optional indeed, but like I said not terrible. Stout standard for everyone.
@ Hoban - sticks(x3), stout, tangos(x2), health pot.
On March 01 2012 10:01 Kipsate wrote:
Either way, solo MM(AP/SD) is not a good way to improve if you are past the basics of Dota.
Disagree.
There are way too many fundamentals that can be well practiced in the environment of an AP/SD game. You're undervaluing how much of a difference those fundamentals make (and how much time and effort it takes to master them) if you think AP/SD aren't useful practice.
My opinion on solo MM vs Team. In general yes, if you want to nail down the basics solo MM is perfect for that (or full IH with equal level skilled people) but you can always improve just by playing. Map awareness, Rune controlling, ganking, etc. Again what Kipsate said, fundamentals are rarely at a cap, and can always be practiced.
Although I will say, ONCE you nail the basics down, It's time to move away from solo MM and try to start adding people you actively play with and build up to a 5 man que. There you can learn how to actually play like a team, plan lanes, etc. Solo MM is great, be nice and build your manners and maybe you'll meet some people who will play with you in the future!
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How do you start as BH? Stout, gauntlet, branches, 1xTango?
Thank you for the responses. Stout, 3xGG's, 2x tango and HP seems a good way to go.
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On March 01 2012 11:35 Hoban wrote:
How do you start as BH? Stout, gauntlet, branches, 1xTango?
3 branches, 6 tango, 1 health potion, then finishing my stick fast as possible.
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On March 01 2012 11:35 Hoban wrote:
How do you start as BH? Stout, gauntlet, branches, 1xTango?
tango salve stout branches for hard lane (alternative 2 tangos salve slipper 3 tangos), unless you are being babysat in the easy lane or something then you can skimp out on the defensive items
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Listening to Bulba sing a whole new world might be the worst thing i've ever experienced in my life.
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On March 01 2012 11:48 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 11:35 Hoban wrote:
How do you start as BH? Stout, gauntlet, branches, 1xTango? tango salve stout branches for hard lane (alternative 2 tangos salve slipper 3 tangos), unless you are being babysat in the easy lane or something then you can skimp out on the defensive items
had a dedicate dazzle with me, pull stack and the other team has no spell spammer so i skip 3 branches and get a slipper so i could get Poor man shield even faster. Once you get poormanshield start rushing to boot(ms chasing) and robe of magi(for mana). Depend on how you farm get phase asap and roam. You could roam starting lv5 but take care of you mana pool bc its very limited. Its best to roam if you have disabler on your team. Depend on how squishy your enemy team and how much dmg out put your team has to either skip ulti at lv 6 to max Q and get kill OR get ulti and take assit money. Once have money build from phase -> drum ->[medalion] (only if u hv money and enemy has some sick armor like DK)-> some good DPS item thats not Battle fury... Even go diffisual blade to be a riki if needed...
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On March 01 2012 12:13 PHILtheTANK wrote:
Listening to Bulba sing a whole new world might be the worst thing i've ever experienced in my life.
+1 to mental fortitude
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I actually also forgot (somehow) to include for BH that Bottle is a situational item but perfectly viable. Boots, Bottle, Stout, Wand+ Tp then finish treads and work toward Jango.
Situational Reasoning + Show Spoiler +If the middle is controlling runes perfectly fine, don't mess up his tempo and get a bottle, it's up to you to judge if can make good use of the bottle. Mental checklists:
A)How many bottles does your team have currently or plans to get?
B) How is the middle doing with rune control?
B.2) If not so great - ask your teammate if he wouldn't mind you to go bottle route and help him rune control and offer to gank middle for him. You scratch his back, he scratches yours.
Obviously you never get a bottle if you're going the BattleFury route. This is for the hyper-aggressive, crazy at heart Dendi divers. (Like myself!) ^^
@Hoban - This man.... HE GETS IT. Indeed, that is how a competitive BH should play. The better you get with your fast reactions to track a hero as it dies, the more amazing you become.
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Omg Dendi divers. That is such a great name. Yea had a game where I was BH solo short lane as dire. Denied tons of farm so I just went treads+drums when I could. I think the really big thing is that if you get really behind on farm, you absolutely need to be at every team fight at lvl 6 and on. I was just really patient with my engagements and never overextended and ended up making tons of money just off bounty+assist gold. I am definitely seeing the merit in having bounty hunter though. An even trade automatically favors the team with the BH by a very large margin.
Tbh I hate the battlefury route. I don't think BH should ever be played like a true carry. Track basically lets you get kill money for assists and also gives your carry even more money for getting kills. Battlefury may give you better farming but by missing even a fraction of the team fights you are denying your team a ton of gold.
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EPT
