EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 162
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Durak
Canada3685 Posts
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
On March 01 2012 06:26 NB wrote: no i think you are building him wrong... what i stated was the exact build bleek used when he played for AL in The Defense... maxing W is only good if you can free farm a lane without contest. Otherwise level 2 W should be more than enough for you to last hit all the thing... In term of dmg out put Q still do much better not even counting the fact that its a range spell which mean that you can easily finish off targets who have escaping mechanic. More over as i stated, BFurry is a waste on BH as his role is to kill, not to farm. Its true that void stone help out his regen a lot but Fury is a huge waste of money... Ulti at level 6 or 8-9 is still debatable depend on when your team could start ganking. I would rather max out my Q to guarantee a kill than track somebody and pray that smhow they will be dead. Ofc u have to be flexible about it no doubt. Again, i see a lot of people saying BH is raising in the current ban/pick and Im wondering how do people build/play him differently to make it such a success? K so you ask for help then turn someone who is much better then you down. Lol nice work their killer. | ||
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scorch-
United States816 Posts
On March 01 2012 06:46 TheWarbler wrote: K so you ask for help then turn someone who is much better then you down. Lol nice work their killer. Well, your build makes no sense on that hero, so maybe you should explain why you get what you get. Bfury on that hero delays his damage for very long in favor of stronger farming. I can see picking up a void stone after medallion + t2 boots, but even if you have free farm for first 15mins, much better off getting medallion and desolator instead of bfury unless you're going to use the hero to push lanes and farm instead of ganking. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On March 01 2012 06:32 TheYango wrote: Battlefury is fine on BH in the rare case that you have to play 1st position cuz there's no other carry. In that case you need farming power, and BH lacks farming power. Generally, in pubs, though, picking too FEW carries is not a problem. Battlefury and Janggo should be mutually exclusive. If you got Battlefury, your gameplan is to farm and farm and farm until you get big items. If you're building Janggo, your gameplan is to be at every fight, which is why you bough an item like Janggo that builds from small components and is cost-effective in early midgame fighting. Either: BFury->Manta/BKB/BFly/etc. Or: Janggo->BKB->BFly/Yasha/Manta/etc. Boots are generally Skill order, copied from iG's YYF: EWQQQRQEWWRWEE Q is maxed because it has very generous damage scaling. Two ranks of E are gotten to make stealth usage smoother (allowing you to Track->restealth more easily toward the end of stealth), and otherwise W is maxed second (it's good, but Q is still is more reliable damage early game). TheYango gave out the pro list here, this is the definitive perfect advice. Boots are generally treads** on the edit. Also you can throw a wand in the build of course, mandatory imo, and PMS is not a terrible choice. I usually go with the Jango-->BKB-->Yasha/Bfly route, personally. Midas is counter intuitive on BH, but overall for pubs and non-pro level, Midas is probably bang for buck the best item you could buy (assuming your hero can make use of it). BH is strongest early-mid game, where he reaches his peak of damage. With that being said, you always want to be more mobile and have the ability to gank during this phase, not sit in a lane with BFury or Midas and afk farm. I'd only recommend these types of builds if you 100% are needed to be the hard carry, and even then arguments could be put forward of how you could make the same if not more money if you spent your time actively ganking, and keeping the enemy team down (especially the other carry) instead of farmng. | ||
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kethers
United States719 Posts
If you are planning to farm and go late game, Battlefury is a good item. If you are planning to hank heavily, Jango, PT, Wand is a better choice. As far as skill build is concerned, if you are farming well in lane, getting extra points into Jinada (old term, I don't remember why it is in Dota2) can help you last hit better. If you are under pressure in lane and constantly harassed, you might want an extra level in WW and maybe even a couple of stats for survival. Personally I prefer playing BH as a ganker with PT, Wand, and Jango. He shines in ganking an it makes me sad when people go BF on him. The amount of burst damage and extra gold for yourself and the team through Track is invaluable in the mid stage of the game. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On March 01 2012 07:23 kethers wrote: There isn't truly a cookie cutter build for any hero, the best pros make adjustments to items and skill builds depending on their laning and overall strategy. If you are planning to farm and go late game, Battlefury is a good item. If you are planning to hank heavily, Jango, PT, Wand is a better choice. As far as skill build is concerned, if you are farming well in lane, getting extra points into Jinada (old term, I don't remember why it is in Dota2) can help you last hit better. If you are under pressure in lane and constantly harassed, you might want an extra level in WW and maybe even a couple of stats for survival. Personally I prefer playing BH as a ganker with PT, Wand, and Jango. He shines in ganking an it makes me sad when people go BF on him. The amount of burst damage and extra gold for yourself and the team through Track is invaluable in the mid stage of the game. that isnt exactly true... if you want to farm, there are much better pick than BH (AM, void etc)... Its like saying let go MKB dps on Lich, just doesnt make sense. Once you pick a hero, you have to choose it according to the role you will play on a team and i believe BH is a ganker into carry, not carry into ganker. Therefore build such as BF which tend to lead a very passive play style on your team is not the way to play BH. If you want such style, why dont you pick different heroes? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 01 2012 07:15 Slardar wrote: TheYango gave out the pro list here, this is the definitive perfect advice. Boots are generally treads** on the edit. Also you can throw a wand in the build of course, mandatory imo, and PMS is not a terrible choice. I usually go with the Jango-->BKB-->Yasha/Bfly route, personally. Wand is indeed pretty much mandatory. It's a quick and dirty fix to your short-term mana usage, since you don't have the luxury of Void Stone mana regen. I actually don't really like PMS that much on BH. The upgrade from Stout is REALLY minimal. I like it on heroes that want that little extra kick during laning, and would otherwise be building stuff that's harder to save for without committing item slots to stuff like Wraith Bands, but BH is going to be buying Janggo components--which are just as cheap as the 2xSlippers anyway. Sometimes there are situations where I might really feel like I want to slot in the +6 Agi or the extra damage block (especially in games that necessitate BFury and not Janggo), but usually, staying on Stout and getting Janggo 300 gold earlier is better. On March 01 2012 07:35 NB wrote: Once you pick a hero, you have to choose it according to the role you will play on a team and i believe BH is a ganker into carry, not carry into ganker. Therefore build such as BF which tend to lead a very passive play style on your team is not the way to play BH. If you want such style, why dont you pick different heroes? Because you're playing a pub and decided to random? Obviously if you're trying to make reasonable picks you probably won't play BH as a 1st position carry, but sometimes, the game just ends up that way. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On March 01 2012 07:35 NB wrote: that isnt exactly true... if you want to farm, there are much better pick than BH (AM, void etc)... Its like saying let go MKB dps on Lich, just doesnt make sense. Once you pick a hero, you have to choose it according to the role you will play on a team and i believe BH is a ganker into carry, not carry into ganker. Therefore build such as BF which tend to lead a very passive play style on your team is not the way to play BH. If you want such style, why dont you pick different heroes? it seems everyone is giving their point from a different perspective. I think NB originally asked this question after a pick/ban in a TLIH of BH over Rhasta? Sorry if I'm wrong but even if I'm not.. What people do in pubs doesn't have to make sense at a min/max or pro level. Players in pubs pick heroes they like and will play them however they feel. Is going BF on BH as first item wise in any sense of meta game? Meh, not really, doesn't mean it's not feasible in pub or low/mid skill inhouses. Like others have said, heroes are situational, rarely is there 1 best build you should always do, and if you're playing pubs or low/mid inhouses not ever build is going to be air tight. | ||
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EtherealBlade
660 Posts
On March 01 2012 07:15 Slardar wrote: TheYango gave out the pro list here, this is the definitive perfect advice. Boots are generally treads** on the edit. Also you can throw a wand in the build of course, mandatory imo, and PMS is not a terrible choice. I usually go with the Jango-->BKB-->Yasha/Bfly route, personally. Midas is counter intuitive on BH, but overall for pubs and non-pro level, Midas is probably bang for buck the best item you could buy (assuming your hero can make use of it). BH is strongest early-mid game, where he reaches his peak of damage. With that being said, you always want to be more mobile and have the ability to gank during this phase, not sit in a lane with BFury or Midas and afk farm. I'd only recommend these types of builds if you 100% are needed to be the hard carry, and even then arguments could be put forward of how you could make the same if not more money if you spent your time actively ganking, and keeping the enemy team down (especially the other carry) instead of farmng. Shuriken scales well early, you get 200 magic damage when you're level 3. However for the latter 2 levels of Shuriken you get around 90 damage - in other words, it's not worth getting above level 2 Shuriken unless you have a lot of mana like a CM on your team or a KotL helping you. Also, calling skills QWE really confusing for me when the subject is not Invoker. | ||
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not jack
123 Posts
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jfourz
Ireland421 Posts
R > J > T > W = Stats with 1 point in W at either 1 or 2 depending on what my lane is i start with 2 tangos a sheild and 3 branches in lane i upgrade the sheild to poor man's and get boots asap then i get treads, followed by perseverance then i usually build medal, and start ganking non stop next comes deso then i upgrade the perseverance to linken's (assuming it's going to be useful), i put this before deso if they have something like slardar where i really want it carrying tps on BH is so good too, don't forget them! | ||
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kethers
United States719 Posts
On March 01 2012 07:35 NB wrote: that isnt exactly true... if you want to farm, there are much better pick than BH (AM, void etc)... Its like saying let go MKB dps on Lich, just doesnt make sense. Once you pick a hero, you have to choose it according to the role you will play on a team and i believe BH is a ganker into carry, not carry into ganker. Therefore build such as BF which tend to lead a very passive play style on your team is not the way to play BH. If you want such style, why dont you pick different heroes? I don't think you understood my post. My point was not that BH is a farm hero, I meant that if you want to farm with BH then Battlefury is a good item to have. My last paragraph also highlights how I think BH is better suited as a ganker. I guess I'm not understanding the reasoning behind your post then. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 01 2012 08:00 not jack wrote: For the record Bfury is very good on BH. The mana regen helps with his ganking prescence more than Jango does, and you will very rarely need the Jango on top of phase+track to gank well. People don't get it on him just because they want to farm well, figured that was obvious. The thing is Perseverance/BFury give you MUCH weaker teamfighting presence early on. Janggo gives a well rounded mix of offensive and defensive stats, and the aura/active is extremely significant in fights, even if not necessarily in ganks. Also consider that BFury is more expensive. By the time you finish BFury, you would be half-done with BKB along with Janggo. BFury doesn't pick up a significant advantage over Janggo-based builds until the 2nd or 3rd major item is complete--and that simply doesn't coincide with the timing when BH is strong. Also, the mana regen on BFury is overrated because most players aren't in the habit of sending clarities to themselves between every gank. BH's mana usage isn't actually so high as to necessitate Void Stone--he just has poor baseline mana and regen. Sending consumables properly between ganks (which gankers should be in the habit of doing regardless) is the proper way to to be handling your mana recovery, not completely altering your item development. On March 01 2012 08:07 jfourz wrote: i ususally go R > J > T > W = Stats with 1 point in W at either 1 or 2 depending on what my lane is i start with 2 tangos a sheild and 3 branches in lane i upgrade the sheild to poor man's and get boots asap then i get treads, followed by perseverance then i usually build medal, and start ganking non stop next comes deso then i upgrade the perseverance to linken's (assuming it's going to be useful), i put this before deso if they have something like slardar where i really want it carrying tps on BH is so good too, don't forget them! Wait wait, Perseverance->Medallion->Desolator->Linken? Building no HP until your 4th item is a great way to have absolutely zero teamfight presence other than vulturing kills. | ||
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not jack
123 Posts
On March 01 2012 08:15 TheYango wrote: The thing is Perseverance/BFury give you MUCH weaker teamfighting presence early on. Janggo gives a well rounded mix of offensive and defensive stats, and the aura is extremely significant in fights, even if not necessarily in ganks. Also consider that BFury is more expensive. By the time you finish BFury, you would be half-done with BKB along with Janggo. BFury doesn't pick up a significant advantage over Janggo-based builds until the 2nd or 3rd major item is complete. Also, the mana regen on BFury is overrated because most players aren't in the habit of sending clarities to themselves between every gank. BH's mana usage isn't actually so high as to necessitate Void Stone--he just has poor baseline mana and regen. Sending consumables properly between ganks (which gankers should be in the habit of doing regardless) is the proper way to to be handling your mana recovery, not completely altering your item development. Wait wait, Perseverance->Medallion->Desolator->Linken? Building no HP until your 4th item is a great way to have absolutely zero teamfight presence other than vulturing kills. I know I support both builds entirely, just felt like a lot of people saw Bfury simply as a auto creep waves tool. When builds are debatable like this, you have to take a lot of variables into account and that starts with this level of analysis. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 01 2012 08:21 not jack wrote: I know I support both builds entirely, just felt like a lot of people saw Bfury simply as a auto creep waves tool. When builds are debatable like this, you have to take a lot of variables into account and that starts with this level of analysis. I mean sure, the item DOES something in fights and ganks. But if you're not playing a role that involves using BFury as an "auto creeps tool", you're not making good enough use of the item to make it worthwhile. | ||
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jfourz
Ireland421 Posts
On March 01 2012 08:15 TheYango wrote: The thing is Perseverance/BFury give you MUCH weaker teamfighting presence early on. Janggo gives a well rounded mix of offensive and defensive stats, and the aura/active is extremely significant in fights, even if not necessarily in ganks. Also consider that BFury is more expensive. By the time you finish BFury, you would be half-done with BKB along with Janggo. BFury doesn't pick up a significant advantage over Janggo-based builds until the 2nd or 3rd major item is complete--and that simply doesn't coincide with the timing when BH is strong. Also, the mana regen on BFury is overrated because most players aren't in the habit of sending clarities to themselves between every gank. BH's mana usage isn't actually so high as to necessitate Void Stone--he just has poor baseline mana and regen. Sending consumables properly between ganks (which gankers should be in the habit of doing regardless) is the proper way to to be handling your mana recovery, not completely altering your item development. Wait wait, Perseverance->Medallion->Desolator->Linken? Building no HP until your 4th item is a great way to have absolutely zero teamfight presence other than vulturing kills. i find treads gives me enough to get in, do my damage and get out. the regen on perseverance means i can do it multiple times. besides i prefer avoiding teamfights until i can give my team an unfair advantage, whether that's by picking someone off beforehand or knowing they are split up through steath/track scouting making blanket statements like that is stupid. dota is not a static game and you can't just say a certain build is good or bad without giving a lot more variables than just the build | ||
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
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jfourz
Ireland421 Posts
On March 01 2012 08:53 TheWarbler wrote: I think I take the always have a TP to heart when I play. i find myself carrying 2, so that i don't break my always have a tp rule when i use one  | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
not bad so far... phase boot change everything @_@ holy shit he is fast edit: clearly drum add a ton of survival skill into BH: the only way to kill him is using dust and u cant out run dust duration with phase drum quite easily. Drum also give you bonus HP and phase dmg will add in bonus of W later on. The AS on tread is kinda a waste bc BH is all about 1 hit combo quick dmg dealer, not to stand and 1v1 solo ursa... The robe of magi early on before bracer could also add in mana regen to roam and spam Q around level 6. | ||
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esotericc
449 Posts
1) What's an average record for someone who randoms every game, I am 111-119, I feeel like this is shitty although I didn't really play dota until i got dota 2 beta 2) Is it normal that your success in solo queue is almost entirely based on whether you get the better team in the game? I mean this sounds obvious at its surface but I feel so many games are decided before we even pick heroes, I have had maybe 20 close games the rest were complete stomps one way or the other. I mean obviously I could play better but I never do THAT bad, sure I've fed my share of games when Im having a bad day or whatever but it shouldn't be one person constantly being the downfall of the team (assuming I was always the worst) right? Not saying I am always the worst but I find it pointless to blame my team every time. So is solo queue MM basically a lottery to get the better team or can my personal play almost always be the deciding factor? | ||
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