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United States47024 Posts
That said,
On February 11 2012 19:49 PHILtheTANK wrote:
you picked riki, clinkz, bh, brood, or sand king, i lold... dust negatess ur entire hero.
Lothars works just fine for me thank you for your concerns.
Lothar's is terrible for Drow. It's a fun pubstomp item on a few other heroes like Ursa or SF who get a nice kick out of jumping out of invisibility against pub players, but is not even really useful on Drow.
Never mind whether or not people use Dust/Sentries, WTF does jumping out of invisibility even do for you as Drow? Invisible SF channels Ulti right next to their team. Invisible Ursa pops out and Fury Swipes' 3/4 of someone's life. Invisible Drow...autoattacks you? Which she could have done without the invisibility just fine? At best it's a shitty escape.
On February 11 2012 20:39 cilinder007 wrote:
how does dust negate the bonus ms and the extra dps lothars gives ?
It doesn't, but items like Janggo, Yasha, and even Mask of Madness are WAY more cost-effective if that's what you want.
On February 12 2012 00:46 Hoban wrote:
Tbh PA feels too squishy to be a viable carry. Looking at popular carries such as Antimage, Faceless Void, Spectre, Broodmother (at least these are the ones I see picked in pro games if they choose to go for a hard carry) they all have an outrageous ability to amplify their own damage and reduce damage they take by a large margin (or mitigate it somehow). Riki's stealth is his 'survivability' and I see no reason to pick him over the other carries that I mentioned in an organized game. 2 damage for 1 agi is a sweet steroid ability, but I disagree with your notion that Riki is an engager with blinkstrike+cloud. His cloud only gives miss chance to the people in it. Chances are, one of the supports is carrying a force staff and the moment you initiate with riki, one of you is getting kicked out of the cloud. You jump a support, the ranged eat you for breakfast. Best case scenario is you jump their carry the moment the rest of your team initiates with stuns while you BKB. Even then, I cannot see Riki ever initiating. Too fragile and can only disable 1 maybe 2 if they are clumped. And then it is easy to counter that with a force staff.
Edit: and I guess I do see a big thing wrong with BH that makes him only partially viable. BH doesn't farm creeps like carries, he farms heroes. In some pro games, aggressive will be the tempo with kills and ganks everywhere. You want a BH for this type of scenario. On the other hand, I have seen games so passive that BH's main money making tool would be put to no use. It kind of makes sense now but I still view him as a possibly valuable pick.
Riki isn't and shouldn't be played as a 1st-position carry. As you mentioned, lategame Smoke just doesn't have the effectiveness it does midgame once BKBs, MKBs, or Force Staves are finished. Likewise, BH is a semi-carry, not really a full carry. The only items he really needs are Janggo and BKB--anything after that is whatever he can get to, so long as he brought up the tempo so that other carries on your team can farm.
The main thing about long-duration Stealth like Riki's and BH's is that you're not looking to use it primarily in fights. While it is certainly nice, the primary advantage of it is midgame map dominance. While you will obviously get Dusted/Sentried in fights, it is simply infeasible for enemy supports to Observer+Sentry every possible route you might take to gank, which puts a limit on how far enemy carries can farm, and allows you to punish them for their mistakes. Your goal midgame in either case is suppress the enemy's development and advance your own teams' farm. In either case, you're not looking necessarily for individual farm (though you will certainly need to farm in order to keep your item pace going), but to advance the tempo for your team as a whole. While you may end up as a primary damage dealer simply by nature of picking up lots of kills, it is not your intent to be such.
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On February 12 2012 01:11 TheYango wrote:That said, Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 19:49 PHILtheTANK wrote:
you picked riki, clinkz, bh, brood, or sand king, i lold... dust negatess ur entire hero.
Lothars works just fine for me thank you for your concerns. Lothar's is terrible for Drow. It's a fun pubstomp item on a few other heroes like Ursa or SF who get a nice kick out of jumping out of invisibility against pub players, but is not even really useful on Drow. WTF does jumping out of invisibility even do for you as Drow? Invisible SF channels Ulti right next to their team. Invisible Ursa pops out and Fury Swipes' 3/4 of someone's life. Invisible Drow...autoattacks you? Which she could have done without the invisibility just fine? At best it's a shitty escape. Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 20:39 cilinder007 wrote:
how does dust negate the bonus ms and the extra dps lothars gives ? It doesn't, but items like Janggo, Yasha, and even Mask of Madness are WAY more cost-effective if that's what you want.
Hi, you are the first that has a clue to step in this thread. its a good feeling!
i think he meant shadow blade as a damage/ias item and also a free get awway from rape card, but if a drow goes shadow blade first, i would make his life a nightmare easily, if he goes bkb first he will get away from most ganks if he has map awareness
what I meant in term of blink strike cloud riki is to stop a es or a lion from responding when ur team launches the atack, the best rikis i have played agaisnt were the ones that would just come and smoke one of my most important support and then his team coming in and being able to tear us apart because of that es or lion or sand king or vengeful not being able to make an impact in the fight.
in my opinion as you stated, riki and bh arent suppose to be carries even though they act as such some of the time, i see riki as a semi carry that breaks the other team`s chemistry by picking off/stopping a support that is primordial to the other team in term of team fights and bh i nmy opinion is useless in every way but thats just my opinion
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I read a bit of the discussion about invi carry and stuff.
As someone who didn't follow dota pro at all, which are the used agility carry in the pro environnement ? Mirana ? :o
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Font, I agree with you about Lothar's, even in a pub I think it's better to go a proper item build on Drow. Drow is a carry who gets a huge mid-game DPS boost from her aura and her ultimate, so she's good at closing a game early before an opposing hard carry can contribute to his team. Lothar's is terrible in team fights compared to a BKB or a manta.
With regard to Bounty Hunter, though, I think you're letting your personal experiences in lower-level games get the better of you. If he's getting picked and banned in competitive games, "in my experience, hes easy to deal with" doesn't hold much water.
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On February 12 2012 01:59 rgfdxm wrote:
Font, I agree with you about Lothar's, even in a pub I think it's better to go a proper item build on Drow. Drow is a carry who gets a huge mid-game DPS boost from her aura and her ultimate, so she's good at closing a game early before an opposing hard carry can contribute to his team. Lothar's is terrible in team fights compared to a BKB or a manta.
With regard to Bounty Hunter, though, I think you're letting your personal experiences in lower-level games get the better of you. If he's getting picked and banned in competitive games, "in my experience, hes easy to deal with" doesn't hold much water.
except for the fact that I have played in high level games, with players like demon march bulba brood star universe 1437 fear babar mal de jambe and a bunch of virus
i know it looks like im talking out of my ass and I do see the benefits in using bh but in my experience a team that is well trained will deal with it without being threatened
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2012 01:59 Noocta wrote:
I read a bit of the discussion about invi carry and stuff.
As someone who didn't follow dota pro at all, which are the used agility carry in the pro environnement ? Mirana ? :o
DotA 2 as it stands is currently in flux due to the constant addition of new heroes.
In DotA 1, both in Europe and in China, pushing styles have shifted the pace of the game earlier, so super-lategame oriented carries that were strong in previous versions like Drow, Medusa, and Morphling (who also got individual nerfs/reworks) shifted out of favor. Faceless Void and Spectre are also situational picks only seen every now and then.
As far as hard carries go, Antimage and Syllabear are probably the two most relevant agility carries (Antimage gets played to a faster pushing/teamfighting pace with builds getting Vanguard/Vlads early, and Syllabear naturally has insane pushing power). Gondar, Broodmother, and Weaver are also frequent semi-carry picks.
Supposedly TB is super strong in 6.73 -cm, but I haven't seen enough of it to say for sure.
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On February 12 2012 02:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 01:59 Noocta wrote:
I read a bit of the discussion about invi carry and stuff.
As someone who didn't follow dota pro at all, which are the used agility carry in the pro environnement ? Mirana ? :o DotA 2 as it stands is currently in flux due to the constant addition of new heroes. In DotA 1, both in Europe and in China, pushing styles have shifted the pace of the game earlier, so super-lategame oriented carries that were strong in previous versions like Drow, Medusa, and Morphling (who also got individual nerfs/reworks) shifted out of favor. Faceless Void and Spectre are also situational picks only seen every now and then. As far as hard carries go, Antimage and Syllabear are probably the two most relevant agility carries (Antimage gets played to a faster pushing/teamfighting pace with builds getting Vanguard/Vlads early, and Syllabear naturally has insane pushing power). Gondar, Broodmother, and Weaver are also frequent semi-carry picks. Supposedly TB is super strong in 6.73 -cm, but I haven't seen enough of it to say for sure.
I cant wait for all the heros to come to dota 2, except one... meepo the first week meepo comes out, i will not play dota 2 because I know EVERYONE will play him and meepo requires mad micro skill so, i will stay away from the game the first week he is implemented 
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On February 12 2012 02:19 Font wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 02:15 TheYango wrote:On February 12 2012 01:59 Noocta wrote:
I read a bit of the discussion about invi carry and stuff.
As someone who didn't follow dota pro at all, which are the used agility carry in the pro environnement ? Mirana ? :o DotA 2 as it stands is currently in flux due to the constant addition of new heroes. In DotA 1, both in Europe and in China, pushing styles have shifted the pace of the game earlier, so super-lategame oriented carries that were strong in previous versions like Drow, Medusa, and Morphling (who also got individual nerfs/reworks) shifted out of favor. Faceless Void and Spectre are also situational picks only seen every now and then. As far as hard carries go, Antimage and Syllabear are probably the two most relevant agility carries (Antimage gets played to a faster pushing/teamfighting pace with builds getting Vanguard/Vlads early, and Syllabear naturally has insane pushing power). Gondar, Broodmother, and Weaver are also frequent semi-carry picks. Supposedly TB is super strong in 6.73 -cm, but I haven't seen enough of it to say for sure. I cant wait for all the heros to come to dota 2, except one... meepo the first week meepo comes out, i will not play dota 2 because I know EVERYONE will play him and meepo requires mad micro skill so, i will stay away from the game the first week he is implemented
I can't wait to play meepo. people are going to suck so much with him.
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Calm down guys! Let's change the atmosphere with a cute funny, courtesy of Reddit, Dota2 section. I was reminded of Catz for some reason, since he loves his Invoker play.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fe5A2.png)
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On February 12 2012 02:19 Font wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 02:15 TheYango wrote:On February 12 2012 01:59 Noocta wrote:
I read a bit of the discussion about invi carry and stuff.
As someone who didn't follow dota pro at all, which are the used agility carry in the pro environnement ? Mirana ? :o DotA 2 as it stands is currently in flux due to the constant addition of new heroes. In DotA 1, both in Europe and in China, pushing styles have shifted the pace of the game earlier, so super-lategame oriented carries that were strong in previous versions like Drow, Medusa, and Morphling (who also got individual nerfs/reworks) shifted out of favor. Faceless Void and Spectre are also situational picks only seen every now and then. As far as hard carries go, Antimage and Syllabear are probably the two most relevant agility carries (Antimage gets played to a faster pushing/teamfighting pace with builds getting Vanguard/Vlads early, and Syllabear naturally has insane pushing power). Gondar, Broodmother, and Weaver are also frequent semi-carry picks. Supposedly TB is super strong in 6.73 -cm, but I haven't seen enough of it to say for sure. I cant wait for all the heros to come to dota 2, except one... meepo the first week meepo comes out, i will not play dota 2 because I know EVERYONE will play him and meepo requires mad micro skill so, i will stay away from the game the first week he is implemented
Mad micro skills ? Sounds like a hero for me. :D
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the thing about meepo is not that he requires "mad" micro skills, to be played effectively its just that the hero just dies immediately to aoe spells, dishes out ALOT of damage early on but then peaks really quickly, he is the definition of a midgame carry because he reaches his midgame much faster than other heroes, honestly meepo is usually touted as the hardest hero to play, and to some extent i agree, i just feel like to play him effectively is not = to playing him to perfection, the latter requires insane micro.
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On February 12 2012 03:45 Slardar wrote:
Calm down guys! Let's change the atmosphere with a cute funny, courtesy of Reddit, Dota2 section. I was reminded of Catz for some reason, since he loves his Invoker play.
I don't know... I was incredibly entertained by the "discussion" on the last few pages, so please let us enjoy it while it lasts - "The stars that burn brightest, burn quickest".
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Font is quite possibly the angirest poster I've ever seen on TL, every single post of his is filled with so much condescending attitude its ridiculous.
Also I'll get Lothar's on Drow/Sniper all day in pub games. It's not an expensive item(compared to other items), costs the same as eaglehorn. Gives good damage, ok attack speed, an ability to scout out and grant you a little more burst damage in ganks. Also gives you an escape mechanism on a hero who doesn't have one. I don't see the problem with getting it in pubs, especially with teams who don't want to teamfight so I spend the game ganking.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2012 06:27 PHILtheTANK wrote:
Also I'll get Lothar's on Drow/Sniper all day in pub games. It's not an expensive item(compared to other items), costs the same as eaglehorn. Gives good damage, ok attack speed, an ability to scout out and grant you a little more burst damage in ganks. Also gives you an escape mechanism on a hero who doesn't have one. I don't see the problem with getting it in pubs, especially with teams who don't want to teamfight so I spend the game ganking.
It's not expensive, but it's not cheap either. Janggo, Yasha, and HotD are 1000-1500 cheaper, and BKB is only 600 more, all of which have higher efficiency/effectiveness. No part of Lothar's is particularly outstanding for Drow, because unlike Admiral, SF, or Ursa who at least have some synergy with the item, Drow doesn't have any skills that benefit from the positioning advantages conferred by being able to pre-stealth.
Janggo + Yasha is basically better than Lothar's for Drow in pretty much all aspects. It gives significantly more damage and attack speed (particularly since Agility-based damage is multiplied by Trueshot Aura and pure +damage isn't), gives you a nice chunk of survivability from both the +Str and +Agi, gives a significantly stronger MS boost (15% passively, and 25% with Janggo active), and confers significant active/passive MS/AS to your allies which helps your ganks. All for less than 600 gold more than Lothar's.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Lothars is alot of fun though, but yeah other items are much better.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2012 06:46 Kipsate wrote:
Lothars is alot of fun though, but yeah other items are much better.
I don't deny that, but if I want to have fun with Lothar's, Admiral Lothar's Tidebringers or invisible SF ultis are more fun than getting it on Drow...who just pops out and right clicks people.
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Well I am a big fan of Drow and me, being the nub I am, was like "Omg click invis YES" so I got Lothars every time on her. How should I switch this up? Go Yasha, Drums, BKB, Manta? Or if I have some good supports who ward, Helm of the Dominator then Yasha BkB ect ect? To me she is super fun to play as a mid-game ganker. The 2nd night that hits, you have some items and a huge vision range. Time to fuck shit up! And then you just carry like a boss in late game. Hello silencing their team then killing them all before a spell gets off.
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Real men get Lothar's on WD.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On February 12 2012 07:00 Hoban wrote:
Well I am a big fan of Drow and me, being the nub I am, was like "Omg click invis YES" so I got Lothars every time on her. How should I switch this up? Go Yasha, Drums, BKB, Manta? Or if I have some good supports who ward, Helm of the Dominator then Yasha BkB ect ect? To me she is super fun to play as a mid-game ganker. The 2nd night that hits, you have some items and a huge vision range. Time to fuck shit up! And then you just carry like a boss in late game. Hello silencing their team then killing them all before a spell gets off.
I usually build drow, some gg branches etc starter kit, get treads/dominator(helm first over treads if you need the regen)
Yasha, Manta
then check if its worth getting a BKB
if not you can go mkb/daedelus or butterfly.
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On February 12 2012 07:00 Hoban wrote:
Well I am a big fan of Drow and me, being the nub I am, was like "Omg click invis YES" so I got Lothars every time on her. How should I switch this up? Go Yasha, Drums, BKB, Manta? Or if I have some good supports who ward, Helm of the Dominator then Yasha BkB ect ect? To me she is super fun to play as a mid-game ganker. The 2nd night that hits, you have some items and a huge vision range. Time to fuck shit up! And then you just carry like a boss in late game. Hello silencing their team then killing them all before a spell gets off.
I usually just get Treads + (Aquila) + Dominator, after that I farm while stacking ancients and pick my fights wisely. Then whenever It's safe to start pushing/roshing we do that. Items depend of your opponents lineup, but my usual build after the initial items would probably be Manta + BKB into whatever luxury is appropriate.
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EPT
