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On August 25 2013 15:52 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 15:20 Shaella wrote:On August 25 2013 15:14 motbob wrote:On August 25 2013 15:12 ptbl wrote:On August 25 2013 13:10 motbob wrote:On August 25 2013 09:34 Lodasrecedinhairline wrote:
Aui_2000 just mentioned on his stream that he might take a break from competitive dota2 for a year so he might not be at TI4. If there is a TI4! If there is no ti4, valve would erase all the goodwill they have received over the years in an instaneous second. The esports community would be up in arms, etc. Why are they obligated to run a tournament that loses them millions forever? If they aren't obligated to run it forever, why would they erase all their built up good will by not holding a TI4? 1. They didn't lose that much money on TI3 2. Its called a marketing budget 3. It creates more value in the long run with the steam market, chests, and new players, as well as spreading interest in comp dota, and therefore tickets for tournaments, and pennants for team, all of which are profit for valve why wouldn't they hold TI4 I don't understand what in my posts you are replying to. I never asked why Valve would want to run a TI4, nor did I argue that they shouldn't. Nevertheless, since we're on the subject, let me just point out that there is no way that Valve didn't lose millions on TI3, unless you count Compendium purchases, in which case they probably only lost a little bit. Let's think about the expenses: - Rent a big concert hall for a week, hire some outside staff to act as ushers for that week. - Hire a huge production crew and rent equipment for one week. - Fly a bunch of people to Seattle, often from countries from which plane tickets are very expensive. - Host a bunch of people in a downtown Seattle hotel for a week. - Build a stage (not from scratch, admittedly) - Put a bunch of Valve employees to work organizing/running the event and not building value for the company (opportunity cost). - Prize pool - Misc expenses (food for players / advertising for the event itself) And the revenues: - Secret shop sales (which come to think of it would be considerable) So, yes, it cost millions to run. Unless you have some source that says otherwise?
Revenues: Compendium, TI3 chests, Pendants
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I recall Valve spent 5 mil. on TI2 (incl. prizepool), probably more than that on TI3.
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Valve had a profit of 5,5~5,7 just from the compendium. Imagine how much from stream Revenue? TI is a fucking dream from a bussiness perpective. Specially when the first game of TI had a bigger view count them the finals from TI2.
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Aui leaving the scene for a year is kinda sad, but perfectly understandable.
In either case, the argument about there not being TI4 is not very good. There's definitely going to be a TI4, it's just a matter of whether it and any of the subsequent TIs can best TI3. I think Valve does operate at a bit of a loss for the TIs, but it is really a marketing tool and they've been very good with monetizing the tournament and the game (stream revenue, compendium sales, in-store merchandise, items, pennants, etc).
In the end I think it all works out for them, but future TIs (and potential future compendium sales) will be a very good indicator of the growth of the game and whether Valve can recoup their losses.
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The prizepool for the TI3 is $2,874,380. Let's subtract $1.6M from it as the original intended prize pool and we get $1274380. If I'm correct, each compendium adds $2.50 to the pool so that's 509,752 compendiums in total. $7.5 of each compendium is a profit and that's $3,823,140. So if the people stated accurately that it cost Valve $5M for TI2, and more this year, say $6-7M, they still spent less than they had to at TI2 and that's only from Compendiums. Is that enough to get a TI4 and TI5 and so on?
(P.S. If my math was done incorrectly, sorry. Just a kid trying to see the business side of things. Help is much appreciated :D)
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On August 25 2013 16:43 sazon wrote:
Valve had a profit of 5,5~5,7 just from the compendium. Imagine how much from stream Revenue? TI is a fucking dream from a bussiness perpective. Specially when the first game of TI had a bigger view count them the finals from TI2.
What is a stream revenue, if they doesn't run ads? Twitch don't pay just for streaming.
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On August 25 2013 12:35 Nocticate wrote:
Seems like Mouz is pretty much gone as a team. Only player besides Synderen I haven't heard rumors about really is paS. He's a fairly good support so I dunno why no one is looking at him.
looks like Mouz might just be Black+4 again.
Pas may or may not continue playing competitive, more likely than not he will stop :/
edit: typo
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It is ridiculous to even consider the possibility that there won't be a TI4
TI3 was a massive advertisement for a minimal cost, putting an ad on TV costs more than TI3 does and achieves way less exposure. No reference is needed for the cost, as 4 million revenue from compendiums is a certain fact and TI3 would not cost much more than that.
Next year they should be able to monetise it even better such as hiking up the ticket costs and switch to bigger stage, potentially returning a profit.
Even if TI operates at a small loss constantly, there is no way Valve would stop holding it for at least a few years, it is competing with Tencent that invests a lot more money in LoL, giving up TI is the equivalent of killing hopes of Dota2 competing with LoL.
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Noob820 will likely create a MUFC the second, even the Chinese fans don't hold hopes. His skill level has declined to an irrecoverable level, judging from his pub games.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On August 25 2013 15:52 motbob wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2013 15:20 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 15:14 motbob wrote:On August 25 2013 15:12 ptbl wrote:On August 25 2013 13:10 motbob wrote:On August 25 2013 09:34 Lodasrecedinhairline wrote:
Aui_2000 just mentioned on his stream that he might take a break from competitive dota2 for a year so he might not be at TI4. If there is a TI4! If there is no ti4, valve would erase all the goodwill they have received over the years in an instaneous second. The esports community would be up in arms, etc. Why are they obligated to run a tournament that loses them millions forever? If they aren't obligated to run it forever, why would they erase all their built up good will by not holding a TI4? 1. They didn't lose that much money on TI3 2. Its called a marketing budget 3. It creates more value in the long run with the steam market, chests, and new players, as well as spreading interest in comp dota, and therefore tickets for tournaments, and pennants for team, all of which are profit for valve why wouldn't they hold TI4 I don't understand what in my posts you are replying to. I never asked why Valve would want to run a TI4, nor did I argue that they shouldn't. Nevertheless, since we're on the subject, let me just point out that there is no way that Valve didn't lose millions on TI3, unless you count Compendium purchases, in which case they probably only lost a little bit. Let's think about the expenses: - Rent a big concert hall for a week, hire some outside staff to act as ushers for that week. - Hire a huge production crew and rent equipment for one week. - Fly a bunch of people to Seattle, often from countries from which plane tickets are very expensive. - Host a bunch of people in a downtown Seattle hotel for a week. - Build a stage (not from scratch, admittedly) - Put a bunch of Valve employees to work organizing/running the event and not building value for the company (opportunity cost). - Prize pool - Misc expenses (food for players / advertising for the event itself) And the revenues: - Secret shop sales (which come to think of it would be considerable) So, yes, it cost millions to run. Unless you have some source that says otherwise? EDIT: Let me reiterate: If you read my posts carefully you will see that I am not arguing that it is unlikely that Valve will host TI4. Nor am I arguing that it is not in their best interest to do so.
Why would you not count compendiums as one of the revenues? That doesn't make any sense, it's a product directly related to the event. There's also one more thing, for tens of thousands of people, compendium was their first purchase in the Dota 2 store, and these people are much more likely to spend more money on it now. The first purchase is always the hardest, any developer with a micro-transaction model game will tell you that. This alone should make Valve some serious profit. And that's not even taking the massive "mainstream" exposure they got out of it. I don't see how TI3 wasn't massively profitable for Valve.
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On August 25 2013 18:46 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 15:52 motbob wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2013 15:20 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 15:14 motbob wrote:On August 25 2013 15:12 ptbl wrote:On August 25 2013 13:10 motbob wrote:On August 25 2013 09:34 Lodasrecedinhairline wrote:
Aui_2000 just mentioned on his stream that he might take a break from competitive dota2 for a year so he might not be at TI4. If there is a TI4! If there is no ti4, valve would erase all the goodwill they have received over the years in an instaneous second. The esports community would be up in arms, etc. Why are they obligated to run a tournament that loses them millions forever? If they aren't obligated to run it forever, why would they erase all their built up good will by not holding a TI4? 1. They didn't lose that much money on TI3 2. Its called a marketing budget 3. It creates more value in the long run with the steam market, chests, and new players, as well as spreading interest in comp dota, and therefore tickets for tournaments, and pennants for team, all of which are profit for valve why wouldn't they hold TI4 I don't understand what in my posts you are replying to. I never asked why Valve would want to run a TI4, nor did I argue that they shouldn't. Nevertheless, since we're on the subject, let me just point out that there is no way that Valve didn't lose millions on TI3, unless you count Compendium purchases, in which case they probably only lost a little bit. Let's think about the expenses: - Rent a big concert hall for a week, hire some outside staff to act as ushers for that week. - Hire a huge production crew and rent equipment for one week. - Fly a bunch of people to Seattle, often from countries from which plane tickets are very expensive. - Host a bunch of people in a downtown Seattle hotel for a week. - Build a stage (not from scratch, admittedly) - Put a bunch of Valve employees to work organizing/running the event and not building value for the company (opportunity cost). - Prize pool - Misc expenses (food for players / advertising for the event itself) And the revenues: - Secret shop sales (which come to think of it would be considerable) So, yes, it cost millions to run. Unless you have some source that says otherwise? EDIT: Let me reiterate: If you read my posts carefully you will see that I am not arguing that it is unlikely that Valve will host TI4. Nor am I arguing that it is not in their best interest to do so. Why would you not count compendiums as one of the revenues? That doesn't make any sense, it's a product directly related to the event. There's also one more thing, for tens of thousands of people, compendium was their first purchase in the Dota 2 store, and these people are much more likely to spend more money on it now. The first purchase is always the hardest, any developer with a micro-transaction model game will tell you that. This alone should make Valve some serious profit. And that's not even taking the massive "mainstream" exposure they got out of it. I don't see how TI3 wasn't massively profitable for Valve.
i'd be surprised if they broke even, but i doubt they lost huge amounts.
Its definitely worth the cost though in exposure etc, theres no way they wont do ti4 (hasnt that been confirmed dozens of times already anyway?)
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no, they broke even or even made massive money, they got a 1 million player influx during the ti3.... that's 1 million fucking people possibly spending money at the dota 2 store, that's possibly hundreds of thousands downloading steam, potentially buying other games. Dota 2 itself doesn't even have break even, but it probably does, just it being free and it massively promoting steam is enough for it to be valuable. Seriously, valve is fucking smart as fuck, they created a system that other people do the work of creating content and doing all the advertising and they take a considerable cut.
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please delete, tried to edit
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oh im sorry, i thought you were talking about the event itself making money. everything sold on the store is actually attributable to ti1 then.
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On August 25 2013 19:06 r_con wrote:
no, they broke even or even made massive money, they got a 1 million player influx during the ti3.... that's 1 million fucking people possibly spending money at the dota 2 store, that's possibly hundreds of thousands downloading steam, potentially buying other games. Dota 2 itself doesn't even have break even, but it probably does, just it being free and it massively promoting steam is enough for it to be valuable. Seriously, valve is fucking smart as fuck, they created a system that other people do the work of creating content and doing all the advertising and they take a considerable cut.
spot on, the steam thing.
For some reason people want to dumb down the streams of revenue by excluding stuff, when in reality it's always more, not less complex.
They might even be taking aim at the game expos.
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28090 Posts
Hi guys, try not to derail the thread too much. Discuss roster shuffling only 
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I seriously don't understand people who said Valve lost money doing TI. The income from compendium alone might already paid for everything. Don't forget that they only took 25% of the compendium that all of you bought to the prize pool and took the 75% for themselves. And I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that there will be TI4 right after the end of TI3. So...?
And btw Bdiz's friends just said something that indicates the removal of Bdiz from EG on his stream by accident. But I'm not sure if it was just a trolling or not. Bdiz himself also named his stream title "EG.Bootdiz playing dota2"...
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On August 25 2013 19:21 TheEmulator wrote:Hi guys, try not to derail the thread too much. Discuss roster shuffling only
To support your suggestion, i'd like to share some thoughts on likeliness of new 820's team:
1. X!! had been practicing mid and Weaver hard past several days, and he is known for his laziness (looks unlikely that he's about to retire from competitive scene) - http://dotabuff.com/players/89407113/matches
2. X!!, 820 and LanM often stack together and RSnake is likely to part ways - http://dotabuff.com/players/89423756 (friends this month)
3. 2p.com is rather credible and 820 really wants to comeback after TI3 fiasco.
4. 820 is very popular, so he won't get troubles finding sponsors.
All in all, new roster looks to be 820, X!! and LanM so far, all 3 were part of 2011 EHOME - http://www.dota2.com/international2011
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EPT
