• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:41
CEST 00:41
KST 07:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5: Vote to Decide Ladder Maps!0[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Mile High15Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments2[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon10
Community News
Artosis vs Ret Showmatch3Classic wins RSL Revival Season 22Weekly Cups (Sept 15-21): herO Goes For Four2SC2 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes + Sept 22nd update259BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch4
StarCraft 2
General
SC2 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes + Sept 22nd update Storm change is a essentially a strict buff on PTR Classic wins RSL Revival Season 2 Code S RO4 & Finals Preview - Cure, Dark, Maru, Creator Why Storm Should NOT Be Nerfed – A Core Part of Pr
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Prome's Evo #1 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo) Monday Nights Weeklies RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 492 Get Out More Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense
Brood War
General
Pros React To: Barracks Gamble vs Mini BW General Discussion Artosis vs Ret Showmatch Whose hotkey signature is this? [ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Mile High
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro8 Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro8 Day 1 [ASL20] Ro16 Group D
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Liquipedia App: Now Covering SC2 and Brood War! Path of Exile Borderlands 3
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Big Programming Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[AI] JoCo is Eminem for com…
Peanutsc
Try to reverse getting fired …
Garnet
[ASL20] Players bad at pi…
pullarius1
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1964 users

TI3 Hero Profile: Naga Siren

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
phantasmal
Profile Joined June 2013
276 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 12:43:59
September 07 2013 02:50 GMT
#1

The International 3



Follow TI3 on
Liquipedia and in the LR Thread

Focus Mode
Turn off Focus Mode [x]


TI3 Hero Profile: Naga Siren





by phantasmal



[image loading]


For the second year in a row, Naga Siren was a major player in the International metagame, but this year she shook things up as a support. Of the 43 games in which Naga Siren was picked, she was only played as a farming core in 6. Her record overall was 24-19 (.558); her record as a carry was 1-5 (.167).

[image loading]


You might also notice that unlike Outworld Devourer, Naga Siren’s usage came mostly out of two teams: Alliance and Orange who came in 1st and 3rd place respectively. Together they combined for just under half of her total usage. In addition to that, Na`Vi’s two uses of support Naga were, in part, an attempt to deny Orange the hero, and in the seven games Na`Vi played against Alliance, Naga was either selected by Alliance with their first pick or banned in the first round by Na`Vi in every single game.

So what has driven this shift from carry to support? In part it was the base damage nerf she received in 6.75. Even before that she was never especially great as a hard carry, but losing 12 damage at level one put even more of a damper on her carry potential. But what teams have realized is that carry potential was never what made Naga dominant in the first place; it was her abilities. These abilities are sufficiently potent from the support position, and they arguably fit better into an environment full of multi-core lineups built around mid-game carries.

Instead of looking at individual games, what I want to do with Naga is compare her ability set to the the former king of the teamfight ult supports, Tidehunter. It’s my opinion that in the current state of Dota, support Naga Siren straight up obsoletes support Tidehunter. She’s the safer pick during laning, and for the teams willing to practice with her and get creative, she blows Tidehunter away when it comes to controlling teamfights between multi-core lineups. But for now, let’s begin with lane viability.

Tidehunter’s contribution in lane revolves around Gush, a slow, armor debuff, and damaging nuke. Naga Siren basically brings largely the same toolset, just split between Riptide and Ensnare. There are some downsides to having it split between two skills, primarily that you have to choose which one to max and greater mana costs to perform the full combo, but Naga also sees some benefits. Because Naga’s debuffs are separate, the armor debuff on Riptide lasts longer and can affect multiple targets, potentially allowing her team the ability to swap targets while retaining the armor debuff in an early trilane vs trilane engagement. As for mana management, the benefit Naga sees is that while her complete combo is more expensive, if she only needs Ensnare for disengagement, she’s paying a fraction of the mana that Tidehunter would have to spend on a Gush (75 vs 120).

Moving on to base stats, you would think Tidehunter would be the tankier of the two, but a lot of his tanky reputation is tied up in his Kraken’s Shell passive that you won’t be able to max until very late in the game as a support. In terms of base HP, Tidehunter only has the advantage by 19 at level 1. This is more than offset by the fact that Naga is tied with Bounty Hunter for highest starting armor in the game at 5.94, nearly doubling Tidehunter’s 3.1. She also tied with Pugna for 3rd highest base movespeed in the game at 320. To be fair, Tidehunter’s no slouch at 310, but that tiny advantage could be a huge deal for a melee support in a trilane vs trilane situation.

Finally, we need to talk about movement impairment. Gush isn’t bad, but it’s only a slow. Heroes like Dark Seer or Anti-Mage are far more threatened by Ensnare’s complete shutdown of movement and blinks. Aside from that, Ensnare also breaks channeling, removes invisibility for the duration, scales up to 5 second in duration, and pierces magic immunity. Keep that last point in mind, because it will be coming up again.

Overall, support Naga’s laning is pretty good. It’s certainly not Visage good, but she absolutely holds her own, even in a trilane vs trilane. But laning is only half the story, and probably the less important half. Where Naga really begins to outpace Tidehunter is the mid to late game, and it mostly revolves around creative usage of her ultimate, Song of the Siren.

Tidehunter’s value to a team is extremely dependent on his ultimate, and like a lot of things in the game, this value diminishes as the opposing team builds more Black King Bars. Seeing three on a team in the environment of TI3 isn’t unheard of. Take for instance the Radiant lineup in iG vs Liquid. If you’re a Tidehunter on the Liquid side, you’re facing BKBs on the three most important members of iG. Their Keeper of the Light doesn’t have one, but he’s off in the back channeling horses. Meanwhile, their Nyx Assassin is using Vendetta to threaten your back lines on the opposite side of the teamfight. Hitting a meaningful Ravage is tough, and even tougher when you know that there’s a good chance that BKB Batrider will be targeting you in an effort to make sure Ravage never even goes off.

But Naga Siren does not care. She wants you to pop your BKB, because the moment you do her song will isolate you from your teammates for seven seconds, and on top of that she will ensnare you for five. She doesn’t care if your team splits up, because Song has a larger radius, is instantaneous, and cannot be interrupted. Forget Beastmaster and Bane, because Naga Siren is the biggest BKB counter in the hero pool. Well ok, that’s overstating things because Beastmaster and Bane both did quite well at TI3. But Naga requires less of a laning investment than Beastmaster and does not have the channeling vulnerability of Bane, and both of those are pretty significant downsides.

And the basic teamfight utility of Song of the Siren goes beyond punishing BKB usage; it's also extremely good at outright canceling pesky initiation ults. If the enemy team is reliant on Beastmaster's Roar or Batrider's Lasso to win a teamfight around an important objective, like a Barracks or Roshan, Naga can simply wait in the back and completely nullify either ultimate. Spectre is another example of a hero whose ultimate initiation can be completely shut down by effective Song of the Siren use. And then of course there is Wisp. Alliance put a lot of stock in Naga as a Wisp counter, but we'll be getting to that in a later article.

There’s more that could be said about the Tidehunter vs Naga comparison, but her total mastery of teamfights dwarfs everything else in importance. For a BKB-rushing Alchemist or a Haunt-dependent Spectre, Song of the Siren simply causes them problems in ways few other ultimates can match. Her perceived value on the parts of Alliance and Orange (and her perceived threat on the part of Na`Vi) was completely justified, so don’t be surprised to see more teams adopt her as a mainstay in the near future, provided of course that she doesn’t see major changes in the next patch.



CREDITS
Writers: phantasmal
Gfx: riptide, Heyoka
Editors: TheEmulator
Photography and art via Valve and R1CH

TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
September 06 2013 19:38 GMT
#2
I like Naga support.
Administrator
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
September 06 2013 19:40 GMT
#3
It's a very nice write up . The tide to naga comparisons are inevitable bewcuase they are both aquatic :D

I think she's a fine support uses urn well, but tide's ult is still better
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
September 06 2013 19:42 GMT
#4
Nice Writeup phantasmal.

Looking forward to more of these and why Morphling is the weakest hero in the pool.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
trinxified
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada7774 Posts
September 06 2013 19:44 GMT
#5
How many Hero Profiles have we had lately? I hope I didn't miss one. I think it's this one and the OD right?
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
September 06 2013 19:46 GMT
#6
no love for dark seer most imba champion in game
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 06 2013 19:48 GMT
#7
An underrated part of Naga is her ability to scout almost for free in the later parts of the game with illusions. It is a great, low cost way to get that much needed information without having to use a ward or put a hero at risk. And in the later parts of the game, when dewarding is more common, it adds a lot of stability to the team and their ability to respond.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
andyrau
Profile Joined December 2010
13015 Posts
September 06 2013 19:48 GMT
#8
but we'll be getting to that in a later article.

more similar articles in the near future
can't wait!
"Zai is legitimately not as good as bulba." | kaipi ti3 champions
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
September 06 2013 19:50 GMT
#9
On September 07 2013 04:44 trinxified wrote:
How many Hero Profiles have we had lately? I hope I didn't miss one. I think it's this one and the OD right?

Yeah, we have done more, but for TI3 post coverage I think that is all. We have one final post TI3 two part series coming soon to you guys as well, focusing on Alliance during TI3.
Administrator
SilverStar
Profile Joined January 2012
Sweden18511 Posts
September 06 2013 19:51 GMT
#10
You linked your reddit article to your first comment.
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
September 06 2013 19:52 GMT
#11
On September 07 2013 04:51 SilverStar wrote:
You linked your reddit article to your first comment.

Thank you for pointing that out. I actually have no idea how that occured, rofl.
Administrator
trinxified
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada7774 Posts
September 06 2013 19:54 GMT
#12
On September 07 2013 04:50 TheEmulator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2013 04:44 trinxified wrote:
How many Hero Profiles have we had lately? I hope I didn't miss one. I think it's this one and the OD right?

Yeah, we have done more, but for TI3 post coverage I think that is all. We have one final post TI3 two part series coming soon to you guys as well, focusing on Alliance during TI3.


Yeah I meant TI3 profiles only. Just two?
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
September 06 2013 19:56 GMT
#13
On September 07 2013 04:54 trinxified wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2013 04:50 TheEmulator wrote:
On September 07 2013 04:44 trinxified wrote:
How many Hero Profiles have we had lately? I hope I didn't miss one. I think it's this one and the OD right?

Yeah, we have done more, but for TI3 post coverage I think that is all. We have one final post TI3 two part series coming soon to you guys as well, focusing on Alliance during TI3.


Yeah I meant TI3 profiles only. Just two?

Yes. Although for our upcoming Alliance feature we will be expanding a bit on this Naga Profile, specifically EGM's use of her.
Administrator
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-06 20:01:24
September 06 2013 20:00 GMT
#14
My comment would be that tidehunter represents a LOT more damage in the early/midgame and as such can be an effective ganker in situations where naga mostly can't (since naga's riptide damage is lower than anchor smash at high levels and thats ignoring the damage on gush + ult). Naga's harder disable and the incredible level 1 damage on riptide (combined with its AoE -armor) make her a far better laning support though (and you covered most of the late-game applications). Obviously the TI3 "meta" favoured the early/late combination over the midgame monster.

The amount of heroes that we saw hard-rushing BKB at TI3 despite IceFrog's recent nerfs to it's charge system and sellability also endear naga.

PS: song has a distinct cast animation so while it is probably harder to respond to than ravage in terms of reflexive BKB usage, it is definitely not immune to that "counter". Obviously it interacts with BKB far better than ravage regardless.

PPS: It might not have hurt to mention how strong naga is around roshan, one of the few heroes who can contest heroes like batrider both defensively and offensively in the pit. Naga is a true "King (queen?) of Roshan".
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
September 06 2013 20:10 GMT
#15
Pro players really found a niche for this hero as a support. Naga is a sexy support.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
Elizar
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany431 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-06 20:24:05
September 06 2013 20:16 GMT
#16
Don´t wanna be a smart-ass, but if you delete the "%" in your table it would actually get your numbers right.

Edit: Now that I have read the article: Well done, good read
Noya
Profile Joined April 2013
Uruguay11223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-06 20:25:39
September 06 2013 20:24 GMT
#17
Just a nitpick comment, Song of the Siren can be "interrumpted" by Clock's Battery Assault (with Naga's 0.65 / 0.7 animation she won't ever be able to cast it if caught on cogs)

Awesome article, I would love one similar about the Support Abaddon trend that is coming (right now is First Pick/First Ban material in Starladder).
Crissaegrim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
2947 Posts
September 06 2013 20:37 GMT
#18
Poor tide. Shat on by almost any other hero these days.
CaptainPlatypus
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States852 Posts
September 06 2013 20:43 GMT
#19
Excellently written. Armor is one of the things I'm expecting to see naga lose in the next patch, for the reasons you mentioned.
phantasmal
Profile Joined June 2013
276 Posts
September 06 2013 20:59 GMT
#20
On September 07 2013 05:16 Elizar wrote:
Don´t wanna be a smart-ass, but if you delete the "%" in your table it would actually get your numbers right.


datDota automates to that, and while I don't want to put words in his mouth, my feeling is that while it's technically inaccurate, it follows the standards often seen in sports coverage such as http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/standings which uses the ratio form of the number but labels the column as PCT. 'PCT' or 'Win %' is also nice because it describes the column without using as many letters as anything involving ratio. This is important to me because I often have limited horizontal space to work with.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 19m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 304
CosmosSc2 52
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 514
NaDa 16
LaStScan 11
Dota 2
monkeys_forever571
Counter-Strike
Foxcn257
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0163
PPMD78
AZ_Axe69
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor138
Other Games
summit1g4938
Grubby2948
shahzam515
ToD265
B2W.Neo246
Sick216
Maynarde63
Trikslyr50
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV55
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 57
• davetesta31
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 29
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade880
Other Games
• imaqtpie2018
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
1h 19m
LiuLi Cup
12h 19m
OSC
15h 19m
The PondCast
1d 11h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Serral vs herO
Clem vs Reynor
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
BSL Team Wars
4 days
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
RSL Revival: Season 2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2025-26
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.