On October 23 2013 22:28 ImpromptuGangbang wrote: Luna has great stats gains, and she benefits from levels greatly. She's a wee bit item dependant though. I would dual lane her mid with someone stacking ancients until she's ready to go.
Would a lich luna mid be too cheesy and weird? Because he's the main hero that I think of right now that you can dual mid with and not have significant exp problems without a lot of kills. And there's not really any single support that luna synergizes with extremely well.
It forces the enemy team to react. I like it. Giving Luna free farm an a good ancient stack is never a good idea.
I think another plus is that it's not immediately obvious since you can more or less put lich with any solo laner and not give anything up in terms of levels. The enemy team can't predict where your asinine dual lane is gonna be and there's not a lot of on-the-fly dual lanes that would beat that. Hm. If teams start drafting for more dual mid comps, I think there's gonna be a rise of a) supports that can dual lane in mid or in a side lane, likely as an aggressive dual lane and b) mids/solo laners who work well with the aforementioned supports OR can survive against dual lanes effectively. Maybe we even see mid being two semi-cores like SK+Leshrac. I think this might be Shadow Demon's time to shine since his setup is so good with so many mid heroes (Kunkka, Shadow Fiend, and Mirana come immediately to mind but I'd even say Skywrath, Razor, and Nyx as well) as well as quite a few offlaners or semicarries (Clockwerk, solo mid Alchemist, Slardar, N'aix) and his 6.79 buff was kinda significant since it allows him to reliably catch more of a creep wave with shadow poison. Push lane quickly, guaranteed soul catcher into quick and easy kill. I want to believe.
Who the hell can go mid that can effectively survive against most dual lanes though? I think you might just have to out-aggress them to win. Maybe you send KotL mid and just have him stop pushes from a safe distance with coddle blast spam and win your other lanes.
On October 24 2013 01:35 woreyour wrote: fucking slark, is fucked up. Gonna play slark until next patch :D
On the topic of slark. What do people think about his new ult? Personally I'm kinda torn. 4 secs gauranteed invis is very strong, but I think I'm more a fan of the old spammable ult actually. I'm really having trouble finding the right moments to cast his ult now as I am so used to spamming it.
I think it's stronger vs. teams with little AoE, since they can't deal with you even if they get vision. However if they have lot's of AoE stun you're in a very tough spot.
His new ult just from the one game I played against it was pretty damn good. Very solid against picking off supports, his leap/pact still work well in helping him survive. It's balanced, and will probably get worse if people learn how to play against it.
Dual mid comps rarely work out, it's just not worth it with bottle crowing in the game. So many things can wreck it because the mid support will be either taking exp/farm from the other or be underleveled. With the ramp, it's not as bad as people like to think it is.
Just a little note/more discussion for the Luna mid option. Not that i consider myself good by any means, and i dont at all play luna often because she used to be very popular, but I found myself in a rd pub playing luna mid versus a mirana. The player on mirana was not good and considering mirana has better range than luna should have been crushing me in cs (i know had i been on a mirana vs the same person on luna, the game would have gone differently).
Basically after about lvl 2-3 nuke on luna, I was able to physically keep the mirana behind her tower in the lane by just standing above the river between her and the creep. With the mana from bottling i could threaten the mirana with a nuke that would wipe ~ 1/3 of her hp any time she came too close and push her back = no cs. I ended that game 17-2 on the luna - any time i went for a gank on side lanes it was an easy kill and every time i came back to the mid i pushed the mirana away from any farm.
Again, note that this is a pub and none of the supports on the other team even bothered trying to help mirana grab a gank on me - would make things quite different (of course had the mirana player been any good this also would have prevented me from getting last hits) But overall, i think a Luna on mid with a bottle has some really serious viability under some circumstances. Her nuke is just really really strong.
(I am of course sidelining the fact that she is also very good in some dual/trilane setups as i think thats pretty obvious)
I think her biggest problem as a bottle crowing solo mid is that she doesn't offer enough coming right out of laning: she needs BKB to be effective early in fights whereas DK, Razor, even Magnus all offer some significant power with 4k gold--blink, boots, bottle, wand, some TP's as an outside figure--DK doesn't even need the 2k gold for a blink. He'll just start fighting people with boots bottle wand and a bracer.
On October 24 2013 04:35 Comeh wrote: Luna is a pretty bad mid - easy to gank, low range so easy to harass, doesn't clear creeps until later, can't really trade harass besides a nuke.
Also easy as hell to gank / a lot of mid heroes can solo kill her.
luna without boots by definition outruns any other hero without boots and a few with boots. plus the night vision makes her a LOT safer than most other heroes at the very early nights. basically right now she just has to not die up until 3:30 or 4:00 and then she's golden because her bottlecrow train is running and she can't be ganked with any reliability, even with smoke.
I didnt say whether she was good or was bad. I said she has a lot of viability depending on how your team plans to play and what your goals are and playstyle as well. Good example: do you consider a shaman a good mid? I personally wouldnt because he doesnt meet some criteria: slow attack animation, slow movement, no escape, weak. But yesterday (sorry forgot who was playing) he was displayed in an interesting way on the mid - a gank initiator. Supports would come in, he would lock down, kill secured.
Everything has a right time and place, and in this case everything depends on your team and their game plan. Luna is definitely a more viable mid following how the game has changed to much more aggressive team play.
THing is, Rhasta (shaman) Add and offer a lot to your team by going mid. You have 1-A nuke, that can also harras and push the wave to get cs 2-A hex built in, so you dont need to buy it 3-A lockdown (imprision, forgot the name, 3rd skills) that allows you to get 3s of anyone 4-A GREAT pushing tool in wards
He also has a "decent" attack animation and dmg, and benefits greatly from lvl 7 and farm early on.
Luna on the other hand does not. Dont get me wrong, Luna MID COULD WORK with SET STRATEGIES and pick/bans, but its only a NICHE.
Ok so i really wonder why icefrog never fixes axe, up to date to todays game, he has almost same freaking things as in the start he needs a change badly just as silencer did.
they changed the jungle fine, but axe aint a laner not a good offlaner compared to others he is weaker in jungling than hatchet sf/gyro,medusa Cliff farming the new tier 2 camp movement(done it had better farm than a safelane drow pub thou)
while axe well lets be fair he needed that lvl 2 badly not for the spell but for the stats it gave him fast he needed, but that aint the biggest issue here.
the biggest issue is that tranquil got changed.
you do not want to buy vanguard on him simply put, i hear ppl say vanguard is a good item, yes it is with a somewhat farm.
you need your blinkdagger fast you cannot afford to delay it by getting vanguard wich becomes utterly useless once u get your blink anyway.
things that need to happen is axe ult is % hp instead of flat number. so its equal effective against ppl that buy hp and its effective lategame aswell, also would like aganim to add a leap to his agnim 700 range. so he lunges his axe upweards(sort of like huskar, can also make him initate with his aganim and taunt.
, his hunger should just get removed for somthing better, its great in pubs agains avarage semi pro players but against good players its just so godamn horrible.
i dont know what to change with axe to make him viable, right now to be balanced also he is a very niche pick but even then he has no stenghts besides that his taunt goes thru bkb.
and thats it thats mostly what ppl pick him for, not for his unreliable dmg output, becuse counter helix is so rng even if its psudo.
Hunger maybe should be changed for mobility/initiation/escape/armor somthing of that, becuse right now its kill or be killed with him.
maybe make his counter helix deal like 10/20/30/40 more dmg to creeps? to sort out the change of Place of the jungle?
i dont know something need to be done with axe.
he was so played back in the Days of dota 1 and been such a niche hero for ages becuse he never been overlooked.
i like what hon did gave a charge that dealt dmg and decreased their dmg and increased their attackspeed. if you stunned him it interupted the charge?
now i am just ranting here, about my thoughts.
doesnt anyone agree axe needs to be overlooked and that battlehunger is to weak and that his ult need to be % based instead of Health?
and somthing has to be done about the jungling with him, removing battle hunger would remove him from zoneing in middle thou to give your mid some help.
for Those who didnt go to hon after dota for then later go back to dota again once dota came here it is.
Axe is awesome and doesn't need any fixes besides making his beard even manlier. Axe is actually a pretty good laner. With just a stout to help you tank the creeps you can bully so many heroes out of lane with a-click and battlehunger.
Maybe you should change your angle of approach, rather than change Axe.
On October 24 2013 06:21 Mataza wrote: Axe is awesome and doesn't need any fixes besides making his beard even manlier. Axe is actually a pretty good laner. With just a stout to help you tank the creeps you can bully so many heroes out of lane with a-click and battlehunger.
Maybe you should change your angle of approach, rather than change Axe.
are u talking about playing with against idiots with a team8 to creepskip? if so ofc it works, against ppl with fucntional brain he serves no purpose in a lane with battle hunger.
Have you played against a good axe in lane? Counter helix destroys almost any melee that tries to last hit, and battle hunger destroys any support that doesn't have high base damage.
On October 24 2013 06:21 Mataza wrote: Axe is awesome and doesn't need any fixes besides making his beard even manlier. Axe is actually a pretty good laner. With just a stout to help you tank the creeps you can bully so many heroes out of lane with a-click and battlehunger.
Maybe you should change your angle of approach, rather than change Axe.
are u talking about playing with against idiots with a team8 to creepskip? if so ofc it works, against ppl with fucntional brain he serves no purpose in a lane with battle hunger.
If I talked about skipping creeps, I would have said it. Since all my words are full length and my sentences complete, there is nothing implied; I said everything I meant and nothing more.
Battlehunger forces your enemies to get into range of the creepwave(to lasthit). Unless you are outnumbered you can just position yourself between the creeps and the enemy hero. Then he either has to get into your attack range to remove battlehunger or get its full damage. How battlehunger is not a laning spell in your opinion is beyond me.
On October 24 2013 06:21 Mataza wrote: Axe is awesome and doesn't need any fixes besides making his beard even manlier. Axe is actually a pretty good laner. With just a stout to help you tank the creeps you can bully so many heroes out of lane with a-click and battlehunger.
Maybe you should change your angle of approach, rather than change Axe.
are u talking about playing with against idiots with a team8 to creepskip? if so ofc it works, against ppl with fucntional brain he serves no purpose in a lane with battle hunger.
If I talked about skipping creeps, I would have said it. Since all my words are full length and my sentences complete, there is nothing implied; I said everything I meant and nothing more.
Battlehunger forces your enemies to get into range of the creepwave(to lasthit). Unless you are outnumbered you can just position yourself between the creeps and the enemy hero. Then he either has to get into your attack range to remove battlehunger or get its full damage. How battlehunger is not a laning spell in your opinion is beyond me.
that is even worse, even with a staut salve and tango they will harras you low really Quick, and ive done this Before, but never against good players becuse u know what? you will get punished so hard for it and die.
you can pocketstrat it with an abbadon. but A you push the lane to their Tower wich you cannot go under, well you can but it will ensure your demise pretty much and they will later on just deny creeps and if u take battlehunger they wont be afraid of going Close to you from time to time when you are pretty low.
and last but not least depends on their picks most picks that are common both pub and competetive makes him useless.
against a trilane you are dead meat duo it could work it could also work really well but it depends on their picks. anyway off to work can explain more later today i am telling you the slim chance for it to work is really low, and a good team of players would never let it happen unpunished BADLY.
On October 24 2013 06:21 Mataza wrote: Axe is awesome and doesn't need any fixes besides making his beard even manlier. Axe is actually a pretty good laner. With just a stout to help you tank the creeps you can bully so many heroes out of lane with a-click and battlehunger.
Maybe you should change your angle of approach, rather than change Axe.
are u talking about playing with against idiots with a team8 to creepskip? if so ofc it works, against ppl with fucntional brain he serves no purpose in a lane with battle hunger.
If I talked about skipping creeps, I would have said it. Since all my words are full length and my sentences complete, there is nothing implied; I said everything I meant and nothing more.
Battlehunger forces your enemies to get into range of the creepwave(to lasthit). Unless you are outnumbered you can just position yourself between the creeps and the enemy hero. Then he either has to get into your attack range to remove battlehunger or get its full damage. How battlehunger is not a laning spell in your opinion is beyond me.
that is even worse, even with a staut salve and tango they will harras you low really Quick, and ive done this Before, but never against good players becuse u know what? you will get punished so hard for it and die.
you can pocketstrat it with an abbadon. but A you push the lane to their Tower wich you cannot go under, well you can but it will ensure your demise pretty much and they will later on just deny creeps and if u take battlehunger they wont be afraid of going Close to you from time to time when you are pretty low.
and last but not least depends on their picks most picks that are common both pub and competetive makes him useless.
against a trilane you are dead meat duo it could work it could also work really well but it depends on their picks. anyway off to work can explain more later today i am telling you the slim chance for it to work is really low, and a good team of players would never let it happen unpunished BADLY.
I do think helix soaking cs and pushing the lane to their tower is a bit of problem with lane axe.
He's good at making the other guys' lives hell, but unless you're getting kills (which is hard under tower even for axe) he's pretty annoying to lane with as well. I'm personally never very excited when one comes to duo with me.
That said, I'm not sure this guy's grasp of dota is much better than his grasp of capitalization.
On October 24 2013 06:21 Mataza wrote: Axe is awesome and doesn't need any fixes besides making his beard even manlier. Axe is actually a pretty good laner. With just a stout to help you tank the creeps you can bully so many heroes out of lane with a-click and battlehunger.
Maybe you should change your angle of approach, rather than change Axe.
are u talking about playing with against idiots with a team8 to creepskip? if so ofc it works, against ppl with fucntional brain he serves no purpose in a lane with battle hunger.
If I talked about skipping creeps, I would have said it. Since all my words are full length and my sentences complete, there is nothing implied; I said everything I meant and nothing more.
Battlehunger forces your enemies to get into range of the creepwave(to lasthit). Unless you are outnumbered you can just position yourself between the creeps and the enemy hero. Then he either has to get into your attack range to remove battlehunger or get its full damage. How battlehunger is not a laning spell in your opinion is beyond me.
that is even worse, even with a staut salve and tango they will harras you low really Quick, and ive done this Before, but never against good players becuse u know what? you will get punished so hard for it and die.
you can pocketstrat it with an abbadon. but A you push the lane to their Tower wich you cannot go under, well you can but it will ensure your demise pretty much and they will later on just deny creeps and if u take battlehunger they wont be afraid of going Close to you from time to time when you are pretty low.
and last but not least depends on their picks most picks that are common both pub and competetive makes him useless.
against a trilane you are dead meat duo it could work it could also work really well but it depends on their picks. anyway off to work can explain more later today i am telling you the slim chance for it to work is really low, and a good team of players would never let it happen unpunished BADLY.
Are you actually discussing or just shooting people down? He is right about Battlehunger being a laning skill. It forces the enemy to come forward to deny/creep kill, where you can bully them by just running at them. Laning stage is a game of trades. Your forcing HP trades, which axe should come out the winner because Battlehunger last nearly forever.
If your being harassed down quickly, means your not doing the trades efficiently. No one is asking you to run in like it's sparta. Do smart and effective trades ffs.
Then you proceed to give lots of example how it would not work including trilanes etc, who the hell will lane a axe against a trilane. Thats just stupidity. You obviously haven't seen a good axe bullying people out of lane. Or faced one.
Please please come out with a better argument instead of arguing for the sake of arguing. Your making no sense whatsoever. Axe in it's currently form is actually good for laning stage, but pretty weak once it hits late game imo. If there's changes required, i feel it's for the endgame situation.
EPT
