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Big G
Italy835 Posts
On September 19 2013 06:44 Taguchi wrote: I'll just leave this post from Bashiok dated 5/26/2012 for you here. Bashiok on AH and droprates There really is no way around the problem of the AH speeding the loot acquisition rate for everyone. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6317360/6317360#dropratesah | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
That answer looks like a blatant lie, now that the console version actually shows what they think good single player drop rates/itemization actually is. | ||
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Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:00 WolfintheSheep wrote: That answer looks like a blatant lie, now that the console version actually shows what they think good single player drop rates/itemization actually is. Nah, it was not a lie. It acknowledges the Auction Houses role on items while ruling out dynamic control over items. Keep in mind that the PC version will not be the same as console. The console s drop rate and types of items were developed by the console itself. What loot 2.0 will give the PC users is less items but better (and not the mass items console users are getting). | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:15 Nilrem wrote: Nah, it was not a lie. It acknowledges the Auction Houses role on items while ruling out dynamic control over items. Keep in mind that the PC version will not be the same as console. The console s drop rate and types of items were developed by the console itself. What loot 2.0 will give the PC users is less items but better (and not the mass items console users are getting). Well its a lie even within that one response: The auction house has absolutely no effect on drop rates. is not compatible with When we say we "took the AH into account," that means it's one of many factors Outside of that, its also just bad either way you cut it: 1. He pretty directly lied to the playerbase. In reality they did change drop rates to take into account the AH. 2. He told the truth and they didn't, which would be incredibly poor and shortsighted game design. It would be like balancing an MMO around soloing all the content and being surprised when people form parties. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:48 sob3k wrote: Well its a lie even within that one response: Source please. | ||
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Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:48 sob3k wrote: Well its a lie even within that one response: is not compatible with Outside of that, its also just bad either way you cut it: 1. He pretty directly lied to the playerbase. In reality they did change drop rates to take into account the AH. 2. He told the truth and they didn't, which would be incredibly poor and shortsighted game design. It would be like balancing an MMO around soloing all the content and being surprised when people form parties. I do not agree, it is based heavily on context (and of course poor judgment when it comes to wording, something that everyone makes mistakes on). The quote is pertaining to tuning and control of the drop rates. Stating, "factor" is not contradictory with "no effect on drop rates since in the very same discussion, they stated, "The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House." For example, the "factor" portion could have to do with the items themselves and not drop rates. Although not specially indicated, it is hinted to by the discussion that follows, "Three weeks after launch, players' gear is much higher than what we were expecting... When I killed the Butcher on Inferno for the first time, I was using a weapon with 492 DPS." The point I am trying to make is that it was not actually a lie but poorly explained while on the spot (during the interview). I know for myself personally, the "absolutely) should not be all that surprising especially when there were many outraged people on the forums complaining about it. And then you are asked a question so might as well be as blatant as possible. Perhaps exaggeration by nature, who knows. But context and the whole picture ought to be considered. Anyway, I am done arguing this specifically. This topic has been discussed in length many months back and after this post, not going to add more fuel. I sort of wish I worked for Blizzard for these sort of situations so I can know of their discussions. I want to know the reasoning behind the exact date compared to the tentative dates of other devices (such as loot 2.0). We can make the claim that it will coincide with the major patch and RoS but March 18th is so specific. Blizzard rarely uses specifics to that degree. Plus, I want to know of the financial and lawful discussions for that date. Too many questions and not enough employees. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Bashiok talks about the AH influencing droprates, ie why it is that +str can roll from 1-300 instead of from 150-300, or why weapons have +flatdmg, +dmg% etc that make it so an ilvl63 weapon can roll from 250dps to 1300dps, instead of say from 1000dps to 1300dps, or all the stuff that make finding the best item a 1 in 1 trillion (or whatever the chance is, haven't actually calculated it) chance instead of a 1 in 1 million. Your stuff talks about a conspiracy theory saying that the AH DIRECTLY influences and changes dynamically the ingame droprates, which the devs say are hardcoded. I firmly believe they're not lying when they say that. Get it now? | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:00 WolfintheSheep wrote: That answer looks like a blatant lie, now that the console version actually shows what they think good single player drop rates/itemization actually is. The longevity on the console version is very poor due to the insanely buffed drop rates. I don't think we'll see anything like that; besides, "they" have a different team for consoles and the old game director for the PC version has been replaced. So the console version may have nothing to do with what "they" thought a couple years ago - actually I hope so, because having 400k dps after a week is all but "good drop rates". Developers said that they expected Inferno to be a tough challenge for months, and whoever played self found from the beginning (without exploits) knows that was true; on the other hand, whoever used the AH cleared Inferno in weeks despite the "and then we doubled it" difficulty. The original concept of Inferno as "THE hardcore mode" was very naive and it was rushed for some reason (useless months of Beta till lv13?) until the numerous patches, but we can still see some fragments of it (like legendaries with low durability because repair costs were meant to be a serious gold sink). So, when Cheng says that "The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House" he may be genuine. All in all, I think that the developers were genuinely shocked and annoyed by the impact the AH had on the game, as much as they were by everything else that didn't work out. Which is a shame. To me it seems that the horrible itemization was an ingenuous attempt to provide extreme longevity, but it was never tested properly nor it was taken seriously by the developers (just look at the old legendaries). The AH may be a factor in this, but I guess that the itemization would have been a total mess regardless of the AH. On September 19 2013 09:42 Taguchi wrote: Your stuff talks about a conspiracy theory saying that the AH DIRECTLY influences and changes dynamically the ingame droprates, which the devs say are hardcoded. I firmly believe they're not lying when they say that. Get it now? ...what? "My" stuff is a clarification by Wyatt Cheng that follows the Bashiok's post. I think that the infamous quote from Bashiok (which is a CM) without Cheng's (...developer) words may be misleading. Get it now? | ||
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Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
On September 19 2013 09:50 sob3k wrote: My bad I read that not thoroughly enough. Tis fine =) We all make mistakes (including myself... and especially the case for Blizzard haha). | ||
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
I do however understand philospohy behind this move. And its utterly retarded philosophy. The main problem of D3 in this area is that due to how gold and MF works, and how ridiculously complex is character system, every newcomer or poor player is totally fucked up. Gold and MF is obvious - since all players want same, and rich players are killing faster on higher MPs, gap between poor and rich is enourmous and is increasing every day. And apart from extremely lucky drops, there is no way to break it - if you are poor, you can only count on getting poorer. Its worth mentioning that D2 had those problems solved... diminishing returns on MF and gem system, that made poorer players needed by rich to collect gems for them, and kept the gap between poor and rich at resonable level. Rich players never had such a enourmous advantage in D2 PvE as they have in D3. And second thing is OFC complexity of D3 charater system. In D2 when you gathered 20 perfect gems and traded them vs 1 good item, it meant enourmous boost for your character. In D3 there is no such a thing. Both defensive and offensive capabilities are determined by combination of all items in all slots, which - AGAIN - is hurting mostly poor and new players, because they cant affor to upgrade all slots at once. And Blizzard now decides to shut down AH, which is not solving this at all, it only hides this problem, making it less obvious. Once again instead of solving some issue they sweep it under rug. And to all who expect this to be in OK after Loot 2.0, you should realize what exactly are they promising - better itemization. Right now itemization in D3 is almost non existing - any good Dex item is good for all monk and DH builds... Witching hour is used by pretty much all existing builds. DH runs around with Innas pants, monks are using Nats rings and boots... If you find something good for wizard, most WDs will want it too. If they really increase itemization, it will increase necessity of trading. D2 had very well established itemization where all characters and all builds were using different items, and all that only increase demand to trading. If they really somehow magically make drops better (keep in mind they already tried this approach and it didnt solve anything), but increase itemization and class/build differences, it will only mean that you are going to be finding awesome items... which you mostly have no use for. And what you do when you have awesome item you dont need? You want to trade it versus awesome item for you. Since with Loot 2.0 they are promising that this situation where you get good item you cant use will become much more common, any restrictions in trading are is at this point at best illogical. OFC there is "chance" they will totally fuck up everything they do about itemization and class/build differences at which point trading will not be required, but thats hardly what they should be aiming for or what I hope for. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On September 19 2013 10:16 Big G wrote: ...what? "My" stuff is a clarification by Wyatt Cheng that follows the Bashiok's post. I think that the infamous quote from Bashiok (which is a CM) without Cheng's (...developer) words may be misleading. Get it now? Bashiok: The auction house obviously provides an incredible service to allow for very easy trades between characters, and essentially blows out the wide range of items you could have available to you at any one time. So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. On one hand you have a huge benefit because you can buy and sell items very easily, as opposed to having to post up WTS threads in the old USEast trading forums, but on the other end it does impact the item pool economy with the inherent ease at which you can trade items. If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks. Wyatt Cheng: The auction house has absolutely no effect on drop rates. There are conspiracy theories and misunderstandings, but I do want to re-iterate: there is NO interaction whatsoever. Bashiok mentioned earlier that we took the AH into account, so let me expand a little bit on that. The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House. ... ... ... Cheng is replying to a question that brings up the direct interaction of the AH with droprates and a more general question about the supposed design choice to alter hardcoded droprates because there is an AH. You tell me who's telling the truth and who's | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
Hell, when Jay Wilson was removed as game director for D3, he even came out and said the version of Inferno they tested was 1/4th (maybe lower?) the difficulty of the game that they shipped. They had playtesters beat the game, then quadrupled the monster values because they thought millions of players would accelerate the item grind too much. It's much easier to write-off the entire first half-year of D3's lifespan as a circus act. | ||
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Hurricane Sponge
868 Posts
Ladder Mode please. AH Change: Wait and see. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1019 Posts
On September 19 2013 05:48 Amnesty wrote: Look at the cost of andariels. How much is one with a socket and low penaltiy running now? When i stopped they were around 7m. I bet they are sub 1 mill now. Ones without sockets are probably free. Loot 2.0 + AH would make every single item free. Way too much supply of everything. And its not like it needed help.. I couldn't sell freaking Ice Climbers. Now even crappy ones will be worth something. And finding them would be awesome. You know why andariels are worth nothing? Because they drop all the friggin time, they're one of the most common items. It was popular in the beginning of loot 1.0, but it's just a DPS helm with no defense at all. Every time a legendary helm drops, you hope it's a mempo but 98% of the time it's not, I swear I have probably had 50 andariels drop. But when you get that mempo you get really excited and happy cause those really rare items exist, and if you get a good roll you're like ON TOP OF THE WORLD. In loot 2.0 without AH? Those mempos will drop all the time, there will be no extremely rare items like them. After a while you won't get excited anymore cause all that you hope for is that the mempo will roll with like 2 more strength than the previous one you found. And then you realize everyone already have just as good mempos as you found. Have fun with that. Also if you just tried playing HC then you could sell those crappy Ice Climbers without any trouble, even the crappiest set item is worth millions, because there aren't so many items available things are higher valued. That's what I've been doing but I better not die when AH is gone or it's gonna be really fun getting all new items from trading @ d2jsp... will just take a few weeks and I can't power level to 60 by buying low req and socketed items easily from AH, I will have to play through the damn game on normal/nightmare/hell normally again. You understand the problem? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On September 19 2013 11:31 WolfintheSheep wrote: I don't even know why people bother quoting Blizzard when it comes to their PR statements. Almost everything they said in the first 5 months was completely contradicted by the next 10 months of updates and design changes. Hell, when Jay Wilson was removed as game director for D3, he even came out and said the version of Inferno they tested was 1/4th (maybe lower?) the difficulty of the game that they shipped. They had playtesters beat the game, then quadrupled the monster values because they thought millions of players would accelerate the item grind too much. It's much easier to write-off the entire first half-year of D3's lifespan as a circus act. They told us they did that before the game was released because everybody was clamoring for a difficult game. http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/05/06/diablo-iii-blizzards-top-tips-for-inferno-mode They even had a catchphrase with something like "You WILL die" and people were like "fuck yea!" Then they tried playing it and realized they didnt want it difficult. EDIT: | ||
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Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
On September 19 2013 12:40 Freezard wrote: In loot 2.0 without AH? Those mempos will drop all the time, there will be no extremely rare items like them. After a while you won't get excited anymore cause all that you hope for is that the mempo will roll with like 2 more strength than the previous one you found. And then you realize everyone already have just as good mempos as you found. Have fun with that. Wont be quite like that. With loot 2.0, the drop rates are reduced but the quality is increased dramatically. There will be a higher chance of them being upgrades (since it will have a sort of smart drop going). | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
To give an idea of how hard it is, after a year and a half this guy has the highest barb DPS in game: http://d3up.com/b/1073815 654,453.12 DPS This is the theoretical BiS http://d3up.com/b/1053633/edit#gear 925,490.51 DPS He also doesn't even have half of the EHP as the BiS barb. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3813 Posts
"There can only be 10K mempos on AH at all times, as long as there are 10K mempos, no more mempos will drop" Of course the general drop rate is lowered due to there being an AH, but the amount of items on AH at a given time doesn't affect drop rates. That's how I read it. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On September 19 2013 12:55 TheRabidDeer wrote: They told us they did that before the game was released because everybody was clamoring for a difficult game. http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/05/06/diablo-iii-blizzards-top-tips-for-inferno-mode They even had a catchphrase with something like "You WILL die" and people were like "fuck yea!" Then they tried playing it and realized they didnt want it difficult. EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0F2wPZWdYk Yes. Before launch, everyone was completely obsessed with how hard the game was going to be and the fact that they're going to love the difficulty, and that it would take weeks to complete. But anyone who had played WoW would have easily realized, people love saying that they love hard things, but in truth they hate hard things and when it's hard, the cries for nerfs are loud and endless. Also, Inferno was beaten in 4 days as I had predicted before launch. The fact is most people are clueless about what they want. While hard Inferno was the FotM pre-launch, the newest fad which everyone including Blizzard has now jumped on is self-found gear. Or in plainspeak: encouraging more grinding. With their bogus reasoning for removing the AH (removing the AH is great, the reason for removing it is fail) and the support of their short-sighted fans, Blizzard is now moving full steam ahead to shift the focus of Diablo from a trading game, into a grinding game. And there's only so much grinding/farming/self-found that one can take before they quit due to tedium, boredom and burn-out. If they continue with this design philosophy, the game will fail again. People will not engage with this boring grind. | ||
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